Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #132

[FrostedGlass]

The private drive: maybe the owner didn't have a problem with letting people access the area prior to the murders. Visitors would not have been looked on suspiciously at that time. One of the bridge hunters found the south end and posted pics in 2006 (IIRC)

If the girls were forced across the creek, then I'm considering BG wanted the crime scene to be there so they wouldn't investigate the south end. I've always thought he had some tie to that area. OTOH, it's possible the girls made a break from him and went to the creek on their own.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I don't agree with that at all. I believe it was scripted one way and then an emotional religious chief of law enforcement changed his mind at the last minute. He refused to fully commit to the younger sketch, then veered dramatically away in a wandering disjointed presentation. FBI and other higher ups must have been going absolutely nuts behind the scenes. But they have to bite their lip and try to maintain a straight face.

Tightly scripted press conferences don't require multiple points of clarification in subsequent days, both in person and in print. Heck, the points of clarification are every bit as numerous as the original points:

Delphi Homicide task force clarifies their reason for issuing a new sketch in murder case

It is hellish to dent an initial impression. That's what played in Delphi. Followers of this case along with media talking heads anticipated that presser for 4 days. Once it was so bizarre everyone assumed it must have been scripted that way. Media panel shows emphasized that angle. But those observers lacked the key variable, the accompanying press release that featured the intended centerpiece remarks, "We have a witness. You made mistakes."

Those panel shows needed someone like Alexis McAdams, who is the sharpest reporter ever to cover this case, IMO. She would have spotlighted that press release and focused attention to the severe variance from what Doug Carter said in relation to what he was supposed to say. And if it plays out that way, the entire impressions and memories of April 2019 appropriately shift.

I have never understood the theory that Delphi knows who it is, or that the killer was in that room. Those interpretations rely on stylistic approach of one guy...Doug Carter. Meanwhile imagine if Robert Ives had been chosen to lead that presser. He would have stuck to script. He would be matter of factly answering questions...no, we've never had a suspect who was more likely than not.

I realize Ives was gone at that point. Many will assert they didn't know who it was when Ives left, but figured it out during the shift to the new direction. That's a low percentage adjustment and rationalization. It would require Ives never being informed. Small town forces have low manpower and need all valued minds to contribute.

By tightly scripted I meant that LE had very specific things they wanted to say and a desire to rattle the killer. Like you, I think Carter drifted off, but he did, eventually get everything out they wanted out. As far as all the clarifications, that has been a hallmark of LE in this case from the beginning. They seldom say anything that doesn’t have to be corrected or clarified or that just sits there causing confusion and wrong impressions. Anyway you look at it, two years out, it failed miserably.
Just my thoughts.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I don't agree with that at all. I believe it was scripted one way and then an emotional religious chief of law enforcement changed his mind at the last minute. He refused to fully commit to the younger sketch, then veered dramatically away in a wandering disjointed presentation. FBI and other higher ups must have been going absolutely nuts behind the scenes. But they have to bite their lip and try to maintain a straight face.

Tightly scripted press conferences don't require multiple points of clarification in subsequent days, both in person and in print. Heck, the points of clarification are every bit as numerous as the original points:

Delphi Homicide task force clarifies their reason for issuing a new sketch in murder case

It is hellish to dent an initial impression. That's what played in Delphi. Followers of this case along with media talking heads anticipated that presser for 4 days. Once it was so bizarre everyone assumed it must have been scripted that way. Media panel shows emphasized that angle. But those observers lacked the key variable, the accompanying press release that featured the intended centerpiece remarks, "We have a witness. You made mistakes."

Those panel shows needed someone like Alexis McAdams, who is the sharpest reporter ever to cover this case, IMO. She would have spotlighted that press release and focused attention to the severe variance from what Doug Carter said in relation to what he was supposed to say. And if it plays out that way, the entire impressions and memories of April 2019 appropriately shift.

I have never understood the theory that Delphi knows who it is, or that the killer was in that room. Those interpretations rely on stylistic approach of one guy...Doug Carter. Meanwhile imagine if Robert Ives had been chosen to lead that presser. He would have stuck to script. He would be matter of factly answering questions...no, we've never had a suspect who was more likely than not.

I realize Ives was gone at that point. Many will assert they didn't know who it was when Ives left, but figured it out during the shift to the new direction. That's a low percentage adjustment and rationalization. It would require Ives never being informed. Small town forces have low manpower and need all valued minds to contribute.

By tightly scripted I meant that LE had very specific things they wanted to say and a desire to rattle the killer. Like you, I think Carter drifted off, but he did, eventually get everything out they wanted out. As far as all the clarifications, that has been a hallmark of LE in this case from the beginning. They seldom say anything that doesn’t have to be corrected or clarified or that just sits there causing confusion and wrong impressions. Anyway you look at it, two years out, it failed miserably.
Just my thoughts.

 

[DeDee]

The more I look at that pic of him on the bridge, the more I am inclined to subscribe to the idea that he waited on the south side for them to pass him then he stepped on to the bridge, went a ways out then made a u-turn and headed back towards them. Otherwise, why is he not visible in the photo that the girls posted to Snap at 2:07pm? Is that the time it was taken or posted? Not sure as I do not use this app and never have but how is he not right behind them if he was already on the bridge approaching them? Such a tight timeline - there is no way he ran across that bridge!? Is there??

TimeLine is tight alright.

2:07 SnapChat
3:10 Libby's ph goes to VM when Derrick calls

Seem to recall a 5-6 minute walk to cross the bridge.
BG is hustling to get across the MHB bc he knew the evil intentions brewing in this hot moment. He has them by 2:30.
Can we assume the crime's over and BG's on his way out of the CS when DG calls Libby's phone at 3:10 or had BG already left minutes earlier?
.
DG reaches MHB, searches a good bit, then calls Becky at 3:30.

 

[photographer4]

TimeLine is tight alright.

2:07 SnapChat
3:10 Libby's ph goes to VM when Derrick calls

Seem to recall a 5-6 minute walk to cross the bridge.
BG is hustling to get across the MHB bc he knew the evil intentions brewing in this hot moment. He has them by 2:30.
Can we assume the crime's over and BG's on his way out of the CS when DG calls Libby's phone at 3:10 or had BG already left minutes earlier?
.
DG reaches MHB, searches a good bit, then calls Becky at 3:30.

The timeline on this case is just crazy tight! I am not sure what to think about when BG left the scene. If he heard the phone ring / or vibe, then he may even have seen DG's text / calls (whichever it was) come in and may have known he had to leave. If DG texted to say meet him at the trail head, if BG saw that come in (eg: he may have seen it as a pop up text message on screen, which would not have required a password to open / read), then he knew he had to get out of there, and quickly at that. He also knew he would need to avoid the trail head if he didn't want to be seen.

So to me, BG didn't go north along the bridge to the trail head where DG was to meet them, and if he didn't, then it may not have been by coincidence.

So did someone pick him up that day somewhere else along the trail area? From the cemetery? From anywhere in the general area?? If someone picked him up, he'd probably have wanted to be as far from the scene as possible at pick up time knowing that someone was soon going to find the kids dead.

I don't think he was there when DG arrived. I think he was gone or far enough away that DG didn't see / couldn't have seen him. I wouldn't be shocked if he saw a text come in from DG and bailed. He may have just left the device not realizing he was the star in their video - if the phone needed a password, he may not have been able to unlock it to find out.

 

[MistyWaters]

The 1/2 mile distance was a sloppy inaccurate reference by law enforcement and never should have been used. It causes problems and needs to be set aside.

The shoe almost certainly was found alongside the creek, not on the private drive. Kelsi is not the greatest in terms of concise summaries that don't change. But in this instance she can't be expected to know exactly where the shoe was found, due to lack of line of sight and also the emotional shock as described in the quoted post. Kelsi said she was searching under the bridge. That means somewhere around here:

imgur.com

Shouting distance from that area to creekside is longer than generally recognized. Tree cover in that area below hthe bridge is not ideal to conceal bodies. Flooding tinned out the area in 2003. It is easy to see why Bridge Guy chose elsewhere. But in terms of yelling back and forth from creek level to gravel access road level it's going to be top of lungs. Many levels of thin trees will be in the way. Both parties would have been hearing but not seeing:

imgur.com

That view is the path toward the creek. I followed the trampled leaves. But if I had to estimate, I'd say the shoe was likely far end of picture as you reach the creek, then to the left maybe 20-30 yards. That would be more directly across from the bodies location. The path most taken exits upstream of the bodies location.

KG was searching under the bridge? That’s not what I recall her saying at all. Do you have a link? My memory had her stating her and her cousin were walking down the road toward the property at the end of the driveway.

I also disagree with the 1/2 mile distance can be written off as “a sloppy inaccurate reference by law enforcement”. The location where a crime occurred is essential for LE to determine. Given the rural location, addressing isn’t possible so a measurement to the closet landmark, in this case upstream from the bridge, would seem a logical designation.

ETA - Discussion here regarding where KG searched -
Found Deceased - IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 # 80
post #80
“It's at 15:00 on the Gray Hughes video. Cody and Kelsi cross the bridge and go down to the houses. They found one person to talk to who hadn't seen anything.

I think it's only one house that you can really access from that private drive. There are houses nearby but are accessed via a different private drive. The video was a little unclear on exactly which house....”

 

[sunshineray]

That isn't about him. I said that the things they were saying about him were from the profile. (It's about power to him, he wants to know what LE knows, etc.)
Information about the car likely comes from eyewitness information.
They clearly do not know who he is. Trying to interpret their comments to mean that they "know who he is but can't arrest him yet" is pure wishful thinking.

I very much disagree. I don't think everything that happened at that April PC can be cherry-picked with some areas disgarded. I think you have to look at the whole picture.

There was a reason the car was mentioned with all the rest. I'm keeping an open mind and feeding it constantly, trying to look at things with other slants. I don't agree that all ISP Carter said that day was scripted by FBI profilers. Some language was generalized, some more pointed...the "hiding in plain sight" and "could be in this room" is quite specific as is the asking about the vehicle.

It leads me to think someone tipped, it was investigated, an inaccuracy was identified which led to a whole new strategy, new sketch, new line of investigation. It's really not a far jump to consider that LE have exposed someone who was hidden but are now they're struggling, probably with weaker DNA evidence than they'd like, to collect enough proof to convict. AJMO

Edit: I believe the vehicle was specifically about "him", his ride...whether by him driving it or another.

 

[sunshineray]

Riley heard the entire tape. Therefore he is describing the girls' reaction upon being confronted. I don't think anybody has ever said the girls weren't terrified at that point. Well, other than those who believe in the authority figure angle. The less I say about that, the better. I can just imagine Libby looking at that guy and confusing him with a park ranger.

The girls did not sense danger when he was first being filmed. Otherwise they had plenty of time. During those final steps leading off the bridge everything changes, as he says something and/or pulls a weapon.

I agree mostly except I do believe Abby's gut was telling her to move away from the approaching man. Her Mom heard part of the audio where she voices as much to Libby who states they can't go that way because the trails ends right there. Poor kids, everytime that gets me, I wish they'd just run thru the private property as loudly as they could </3

 

[Boxer]

Even though this is just a reasoned guess, I agree.

I think he was on the north side of the bridge (or south side walking back north), when the girls went by, he knew that there was nobody on the south end of the bridge so he looked back to the north and saw nobody new entering the train, he knew the south end was all clear except for the girls, so he quickly walked aback across and forced the girls down the railroad gravel embankment to get out of sight.

Why they crossed the river makes no sense to me still. I suppose one of them running would make sense.

Agree.
He may have lost control of one of them. And a pursuit took them across, the creek was not easy to cross, though possible.

 

[DeDee]

Riley heard the entire tape. Therefore he is describing the girls' reaction upon being confronted. I don't think anybody has ever said the girls weren't terrified at that point. Well, other than those who believe in the authority figure angle. The less I say about that, the better. I can just imagine Libby looking at that guy and confusing him with a park ranger.

The girls did not sense danger when he was first being filmed. Otherwise they had plenty of time. During those final steps leading off the bridge everything changes, as he says something and/or pulls a weapon.

"The girls did not sense danger when he was first being filmed." Awsi

Libby became a hero the moment she pressed record. It was at that very moment she realized, uh-oh, they were going to be trapped.

We can't be sure Abby was off the trussell when LG is filming BG.
LG has just stepped off the bridge, causing her camera to film a little lower than if she were still on the bridge.

From the spot where their killer's placed on the bridge in the released video, he was upon them within seconds, maybe ten seconds, tops.

 

[MistyWaters]

This is a newer GH video. I haven’t watched it all but it’s quite interesting. Just after the 40:00 minute mark KG talks about the search in general, where she searched, the discovery of the shoe, plus displayed on the screen is a map of the area.
Kelsi German Live - 02-13-2021

 

[Boxer]

TimeLine is tight alright.

2:07 SnapChat
3:10 Libby's ph goes to VM when Derrick calls

Seem to recall a 5-6 minute walk to cross the bridge.
BG is hustling to get across the MHB bc he knew the evil intentions brewing in this hot moment. He has them by 2:30.
Can we assume the crime's over and BG's on his way out of the CS when DG calls Libby's phone at 3:10 or had BG already left minutes earlier?
.
DG reaches MHB, searches a good bit, then calls Becky at 3:30.

MOO
I believe DGs calls prompted the killer to turn his focus to escape.
The first call rang. The second call went to voice mail. I don't know if DG also texted.

 

[cujenn81]

The following timeline came from interviews with family on the podcast Scene of the Crime — Episode 2.

3:00-3:30 pm
The girls agreed upon time to meet up w/ Derrick at the drop off spot.

3:11 pm
Derrick calls Libby as he approaches the trails to let her know he’s almost there. It rings several times before going to voicemail.

3:13 pm
DG calls LG again (his 2nd call) and also sends her a text.

Unable to reach Libby, DG exits the car and walks a few yards down the path until it separates into 3 separate trails:

1- High Bridge / 501 Trail
2- Deer Creek / 505 Trail
3- Freedom Bridge / 501 Trail

Derrick sees flannel shirt guy coming from the direction of the 501 Trail. He asks FSG if he’d seen the girls down that way. FSG says he saw a couple arguing down by the bridge but no girls, so DG heads down the 505 Trail. He doesn't see the girls and returns to the trailhead.

3:24 pm
Derrick calls LG (his 3rd call).

3:32 pm
Derrick calls LG (his 4th call).

3:33 pm
Derrick calls his mom / LG's grandmother Becky. He relays that he can't find the girls and Libby isn't answering her phone. He then calls his sister / LG’s Aunt Tara and leaves a message asking if she’s heard from the girls.

Derrick then walks toward the Freedom Bridge Trail and runs into FSG again. He tells DG he didn’t see the girls down that way either.

3:57 pm
Derrick heads back to his car and calls LG (his 5th call).

3:58 pm
Derrick calls Becky again.

4:12 pm
Becky calls Kelsi to see if she’s heard from LG. Kelsi heads to the trail to help look for the girls.

4:17 pm
Becky tries calling LG and then a few of her friends to see if anyone has heard from Libby or Abby.

A short time later, Aunt Tara calls Becky and they decide to meet at the trailhead. When Tara arrives, DG gets in the car and they wait for Becky.

4:20 pm
Becky calls LG’s grandfather Mike at work and informs him they can't find the girls.

Her son / LG’s Uncle Cody comes in from work and rides with Becky to the trails. They drive along both routes that the girls could've taken (if they’d walked home), but there's no sign of them.

Kelsi and Uncle Cody take the Monon High Bridge Trail and walk the 1/2 mile to the bridge, cross it, and proceed down the hill on the other end. At the end of the bridge, Kelsi remembers looking to the left and seeing where someone had fallen down the hill, but she didn’t think anything of it... “because everybody goes down the hill”. Doug Carter asks if she'd seen “disrupted ground” and if that’s why she thought someone had fallen down the hill. She says yes.

At the bottom of the hill, there is a long dirt road (private driveway) that connects several residences. Cody and Kelsi knock on the doors of some of the remote homes but only manage to speak to one homeowner who had not seen the girls.

Cody and Kelsi climb back up the hill to the bridge and return to the parking area. Kelsi says they didn't walk down the left side of the bridge end because there are no residences or structures in that immediate area - just woods and Deer Creek.

5:00 pm
Libby’s grandfather Mike arrives and tries to call LG repeatedly, but her phone is now going straight to voicemail. (Calls to LG’s phone were ringing several times before going to voicemail as late as 4:17 pm but were going straight to voicemail by 5:00 pm.)

5:20 pm
Mike calls Delphi PD and reports the girls missing.

 

[Boxer]

I agree mostly except I do believe Abby's gut was telling her to move away from the approaching man. Her Mom heard part of the audio where she voices as much to Libby who states they can't go that way because the trails ends right there. Poor kids, everytime that gets me, I wish they'd just run thru the private property as loudly as they could </3

They were only a couple hundred feet from houses.
MOO the killer must might got a hold of Abby while still on the bridge, otherwise I do think they would have ran forward past the barrier.

 

[Spartygirl]

@kellylm here is latest thread for Libby and Abby

 

[Charlot123]

This is an interesting thought.

My assumption is that the teen girl who claimed in DTH to have a conversation with BG that day was not able to closely guess his age. I have teens around A&L’s age and they can’t tell the difference between a 25 year old and a 65 year old. They’re both just “old” to kids. I think some of the other witnesses were older than teenage and had a more accurate estimate of his age for LE. For example the teen witness said he was old, like 50ish. And the adult witnesses put him around 20ish. Pair that with the video that looks like an older man in one frame and a younger man in another and there’s a lot of conflicting info about his age.

Yes and no. If a 25-year-old is "cute", I doubt there would be any problems gaging his age, plus-minus. If he is not very attractive, little would they care, 25 or 65. It all depends on their interest.

Unless Libby, who took criminal justice classes, was different, since she was interested in behaviors. I suspect she could be good with ages, she lived in a multi-generational house, and probably, possessed an unusual amount of intuition.

What else could she have done if she felt uneasy? In 2017, Libby could have live-streamed BG on her FB. Not on SC, but on IG, too.

Why didn't she do it? If she was scared, if she was inconspicuously taking his video, why didn't she broadcast it?

I am always asking myself this question.

 

[TL4S]

At the end of the bridge, Kelsi remembers looking to the left and seeing where someone had fallen down the hill, but she didn’t think anything of it... “because everybody goes down the hill”. Doug Carter asks if she'd seen “disrupted ground” and if that’s why she thought someone had fallen down the hill. She says yes.

Snipped for focus.

I know that "disrupted ground" didn't necessarily come from the killer or the girls, but it does make me consider the possibility of a scuffle right there at the end of the bridge. "Guys...down the hill" sounds calm, not like someone who had just exerted himself, so I almost wonder if after he said that, one or both girls did not comply, maybe reacted too slowly, or screamed, so he got mad and grabbed one there, disrupting the ground. Just a thought.

 

[TL4S]

I also disagree with the 1/2 mile distance can be written off as “a sloppy inaccurate reference by law enforcement”. The location where a crime occurred is essential for LE to determine. Given the rural location, addressing isn’t possible so a measurement to the closet landmark, in this case upstream from the bridge, would seem a logical designation.

Snipped for focus.

Agree. This is a relatively small measurement of distance to be off by double. To think LE mistakenly approximated 1/4 mile for 1/2 mile on their current government website, and again at a pc two years after the fact, doesn't make sense to me. And that means other sources, where Riley says 1 mile from Freedom Bridge, are inaccurate, as well. Does that also mean then that everybody believes the bodies were actually only 25 feet from the water instead of 50 feet, since we are assuming everything is only half what LE measures?

I don't really understand how this distance issue gets so glossed over. JMO

 

[Ozoner]

Snipped for focus.

Agree. This is a relatively small measurement of distance to be off by double. To think LE mistakenly approximated 1/4 mile for 1/2 mile on their current government website, and again at a pc two years after the fact, doesn't make sense to me. And that means other sources, where Riley says 1 mile from Freedom Bridge, are inaccurate, as well. Does that also mean then that everybody believes the bodies were actually only 25 feet from the water instead of 50 feet, since we are assuming everything is only half what LE measures?

I don't really understand how this distance issue gets so glossed over. JMO

How far is Monon High Bridge from Freedom Bridge?

 

[TL4S]

How far is Monon High Bridge from Freedom Bridge?

As the crow flies, it's almost .7 mile between bridges.