Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #138

[JnRyan]

I can only recall one reference to the Evansdale/Delphi murders and that was by ISP 1st Sgt Jerry Holeman in an August 2017 interview. And he wasn't asked about a connection specifically, but rather brought it up in the conversation. As I recall he stated they couldn't find a connection, but qualified that by stating LE did not have a cause of death due to the condition of the bodies. I don't believe he stated that they determined that they weren't related, just simply they couldn't find a connection.

Just my opinion, but I tend to believe there is no direct relationship. An indirect relationship where the Delphi murders are a copycat? Maybe.

 

[JnRyan]

From @Spellbound post #186 in thread #65, the transcript of the August 2017 Fox59 interview:

A: [9.21] And personality traits in a person like this, and that's I think what people have thought about before and maybe him, if there was just one person, is this the guy that was able to get both of these little girls in the woods and do these, you know, brutally murder them, do you think he possibly has done this before?

H: Uh, he could be, you know, that's, again, just kind of our theory or speculation, we have no evidence that he's done it again. But we do keep that in mind. We do check with other states to see if they have anything close; and obviously the case in Iowa is the closest; but they don't even know the cause of death in that one because they didn't find the victims until later. So, it's hard to compare. But it is similar, but, so, we have taken that into consideration as well, and we have investigated that. We've been in contact with Iowa and they have been in contact with us, and we've discussed that, but nothing else seems to be popping up around the nation that is similar to this. But that doesn't mean he is gonna kill everybody the same way every time, so (shrugs), we don't know.

 

[JnRyan]

Regarding another double murder somewhere the Evansdale murders are the OBVIOUS. But what about what might not be so obvious. In the case of Robert Brashers, he raped and murdered an adult woman in SC in 1990, raped a 14 yo girl in TN in 1997 and killed a mother and daughter in MO in 1998. He altered his choice of victims and MO in each case and it took years before LE made the connection. (It didn't help that the rape kit for the 1997 rape sat on the shelf and was not processed for almost 10 years.) And these are his crimes that LE KNOWS about.

To further muddy the waters, this killer may have committed a double murder of young girls somewhere else, but if they are only considered missing - i.e., not found - LE wouldn't make the connection. What if he committed a rape and the rape kit is sitting somewhere in Indiana or Illinois or Kentucky and not yet processed.

I don't believe this is the only such crime for this killer. Somewhere there is a connection and unless JBC is the killer LE has yet to find it.

 

[TTF14]

ok so two little girls who look almost the same as two other girls, all found murdered outside in a nature preserve area near water, disappearing in broad daylight and left outside in the open..but you don't think they are connected. Is it simply because of an age disparity?

Mostly geography.

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

While reading today I came across this article on Psychology Today about locations picked by Serial Killers and the what’s behind them. Dr. Ramsland references Abby & Libby’s killer: How the Psychology of Place Informs a Profiler—Or a Killer.


“For example, the man who murdered Libby German and Abby Williams near the deteriorating Monon High Bridge at Indiana’s Delphi Historic Trails in 2017 had likely been familiar with this area. He'd noticed that kids hike there and he’d calculated the best place to molestand kill them undetected. For the girls, the bridge was a fun photo-op; for their killer, the best spot to corner prey. Once he approached them, he controlled where they’d go next – “down the hill.” This killer remains unidentified.
Where offenders choose routes, select victims, and commit crimes reveals a lot about their personality, habits and methods. The Monan High Bridge killer seemed comfortable with heights and with a bridge that had uncertain footing. Given the rural milieu, he’s most likely a local. He arrived to the location at least partially on foot, prepared to commit a crime, and prepared to escape.”


Does anyone else find this article intriguing?!?


I personally feel that it is no accident nor a coincidence that a PhD who has been a consultant with the FBI, who has written over 65 books, and published over 1k articles about serial as well as assisted with former unit chief and FBI profiler, John Douglas, as well as co-writing a book with former FBI profiler, Gregg McCrary, uses Abby & Libby’s killer as an example.

MOO, I take this to mean that the FBI, psychologists, and such believe that BG is in fact a serial killer!


For references about Dr. Katherine Ramsland: Katherine Ramsland Ph.D.

Katherine Ramsland - Wikipedia

PS: Please excuse any typos, as I am using talk to text.

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

You've hit the nail on the head, for one of the most troubling parts of this, to me (and IMOO): The killer got in, got the girls, took them, and was back out undetected, like a phantom.

He must have known there were other people in the area; he knew a couple of screams from either of the girls might have brought rescuers; despite that, he must have been fairly certain he could get away without being recognized. How in the world could he be so sure he wouldn't be caught? This is Jack-the-Ripper territory (savage murder with others nearby, undetected in the crime and unidentified afterwards.) This is just hard to believe--but the killer must have been sure he had at least a good (or better) chance of getting away. How? Who in the world could have been that confident about his plan?

You must have been reading what I was reading today! Or you’re John Douglas, the retired Unit Chief of the FBI’s BAU (kidding of course). Everything that you said is identical to what I’ve read today.

 

[heartgoesout]

No. I don't think he's technologically savvy either. I'm not even sure he has a computer. Maybe a cell phone. Maybe.

I think he got lucky. Mistakes were made and he got lucky and thus has managed to evade capture.

Any predator these days is absolutely tech savvy IMO. The internet has too much sickness to indulge in. Burner phones allow them to hide as well.
What people tend to forget is predators wear business suits as well as overalls.

 

[distracted]

From @Spellbound post #186 in thread #65, the transcript of the August 2017 Fox59 interview:

A: [9.21] And personality traits in a person like this, and that's I think what people have thought about before and maybe him, if there was just one person, is this the guy that was able to get both of these little girls in the woods and do these, you know, brutally murder them, do you think he possibly has done this before?

H: Uh, he could be, you know, that's, again, just kind of our theory or speculation, we have no evidence that he's done it again. But we do keep that in mind. We do check with other states to see if they have anything close; and obviously the case in Iowa is the closest; but they don't even know the cause of death in that one because they didn't find the victims until later. So, it's hard to compare. But it is similar, but, so, we have taken that into consideration as well, and we have investigated that. We've been in contact with Iowa and they have been in contact with us, and we've discussed that, but nothing else seems to be popping up around the nation that is similar to this. But that doesn't mean he is gonna kill everybody the same way every time, so (shrugs), we don't know.

And neither case has been solved. I don't think that's a coincidence.

 

[DeDee]

MOO HOO

With the murders of A&L soon to become the 5 year anniversary of their deaths of still being unsolved, I do believe it can be considered a Cold Case.

In February 2022, LEOs should release something more to the public. Obviously, LEO is not able to solve the case or they would have. They should give the public another opportunity to help. I don't know what they should release, but anything is better than nothing. Is Chadwell a POI, a suspect or not?

How confusing for us was it when they issued the second sketch of a guy that looked years younger than the first sketch? The second sketch was drawn within days of the crime but they didn't release it for a couple of years. The sketches haven't helped the public ID the BG. Neither has the ominous audio: Down the hill.

It makes me so sad for the girls that after they tried to leave helpful forensic evidence only to learn the clues found in the video aren't good enough for an arrest of BG.
.

 

[JnRyan]

MOO HOO

With the murders of A&L soon to become the 5 year anniversary of their deaths of still being unsolved, I do believe it can be considered a Cold Case.

In February 2022, LEOs should release something more to the public. Obviously, LEO is not able to solve the case or they would have. They should give the public another opportunity to help. I don't know what they should release, but anything is better than nothing. Is Chadwell a POI, a suspect or not?

How confusing for us was it when they issued the second sketch of a guy that looked years younger than the first sketch? The second sketch was drawn within days of the crime but they didn't release it for a couple of years. The sketches haven't helped the public ID the BG. Neither has the ominous audio: Down the hill.

It makes me so sad for the girls that after they tried to leave helpful forensic evidence only to learn the clues found in the video aren't good enough for an arrest of BG.
.

LE is going to disagree with you based on THEIR definition of a cold case, but I'm starting to feel the same way you do.

I wonder about releasing more info. The COD is not going to do anything but satisfy the public's curious nature without providing any meaningful tips. Also any information like giving out info about a vehicle parked in the vicinity might be taxing the memory of those in the area at the time. I do believe something needs to be said. LE hasn't done a PC since the April 2019 'New Direction' PC and any thing done to get the word out has been mostly the media. I'm not even hearing any statements by LE mentioning the need for tips. Does LE believe they already have their one good tip in that massive volume of tips received and have gone back to the beginning to revisit those persons mentioned in the tips?

 

[CCJD]

So much negativity towards LE in these threads.

In Anchorage, Alaska, in 1995, Bonnie Craig was found dead. Took 12 years to solve the case. Bonnie's mother had a lot of anger, ill will towards AK State Troopers, in large part because they didn't keep her in the loop. The solve was precipitated, all those years later, by a DNA hit from a robbery in New Hampshire, clear across the country. Only then did Bonnie's mother realize that ASP had never stopped working the case.

"They were on their hands and knees in the creek".

The story was covered on Dateline. If anyone hasn't seen it, I highly recommend it.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt14244110/

 

[DeDee]

LE is going to disagree with you based on THEIR definition of a cold case, but I'm starting to feel the same way you do.

I wonder about releasing more info. The COD is not going to do anything but satisfy the public's curious nature without providing any meaningful tips. Also any information like giving out info about a vehicle parked in the vicinity might be taxing the memory of those in the area at the time. I do believe something needs to be said. LE hasn't done a PC since the April 2019 'New Direction' PC and any thing done to get the word out has been mostly the media. I'm not even hearing any statements by LE mentioning the need for tips. Does LE believe they already have their one good tip in that massive volume of tips received and have gone back to the beginning to revisit those persons mentioned in the tips?

Oh, no. We don't need the COD. We know the manner of their deaths is homicide. Why did Carter spend time speaking about The Shack?

The former prosecutor mentioned there were 3 - 4 signatures. Can they release any of them? Maybe we could connect a signature to another case we're familiar with. This case needs to be resolved.

Detective Ken Mains is considered a cold case expert. He's stated a case is cold after five years which prompted me to use the 5yr as a cold case marker. KM believes their murders were planned. He claims NP Creek was a barrier or an obstacle. IOW, BG did not intend for the girls to head to the creek and up the steep, muddy embankment.

KMs bio
Kenneth Mains - The Hunt for the Zodiac Killer Cast | HISTORY Channel
.

 

[heartgoesout]

I have found that cases that the victims families are vocal and insistent with LE get the most pressure for movement. Here we have very involved families.
The families of Abby and Libby* both have repeatedly said they trust LE. So they know something we don't.
Unless the families start the driving force to release more info and start turning on LE it would seem they all are confident releasing more info would be detrimental to getting justice.
Carter has also said repeatedly he WISHES he could tell us!
* Libby's mother, CT, has been critical in the past but that seemed to have ceased.

 

[FromGermany1]

It makes me so sad for the girls that after they tried to leave helpful forensic evidence only to learn the clues found in the video aren't good enough for an arrest of BG.

Me too.

 

[paraphrase]

I'm of the belief that every single DNA sample has been analyzed and already connected to someone, and there was no DNA left that is unmatched to someone. So, that means that all DNA samples are of known people who can be explained away from being family members and/or search party members. So, either the killer left NO DNA (or they didn't find it), OR the killer(s) is/are family or in the search party. And that makes the DNA unusable and this will have to be solved by other methods.

JMO, MOO

If the killer WAS part of the search party, and IF proven true that Libby put up a fight, the searcher/killer MIGHT show some injuries, even if minor. With all the initial press coverage, maybe it would be visible. <modsnip> Moo

 

[Georgia8]

1. "Did you see girls on the bridge? No but there's a couple (OF GIRLS) underneath - is there any chance the 'older man' is the killer and is making a sardonic remark? Misunderstood to be referencing a 'couple' and it is not Manhattan so presumably male female. But actually the two already deceased girls.

2. So are the two opposing POI illustrations the two killers (?) since LE is open to their being two perpetrators.

 

[MollyDDD]

MOO HOO

With the murders of A&L soon to become the 5 year anniversary of their deaths of still being unsolved, I do believe it can be considered a Cold Case.

In February 2022, LEOs should release something more to the public. Obviously, LEO is not able to solve the case or they would have. They should give the public another opportunity to help. I don't know what they should release, but anything is better than nothing. Is Chadwell a POI, a suspect or not?

How confusing for us was it when they issued the second sketch of a guy that looked years younger than the first sketch? The second sketch was drawn within days of the crime but they didn't release it for a couple of years. The sketches haven't helped the public ID the BG. Neither has the ominous audio: Down the hill.

It makes me so sad for the girls that after they tried to leave helpful forensic evidence only to learn the clues found in the video aren't good enough for an arrest of BG.
.

It is pretty disheartening to think that two young people could be murdered in broad daylight, in a public place, without a soul hearing or seeing anything, and with little convicting evidence left behind. Images of the Blair Witch Project come to mind. IMO

 

[DeDee]

It is pretty disheartening to think that two young people could be murdered in broad daylight, in a public place, without a soul hearing or seeing anything, and with little convicting evidence left behind. Images of the Blair Witch Project come to mind. IMO

Consider how audacious he was to capture two victims after traversing that rickety bridge. Unless he had a psychotic break wherein his personal life was so damaged that he had to punish another human for his perceived failures, he likely won't kill again. But, if he had killed before and felt a thrill to find and isolate two victims, then this guy remains a danger to society.

Even though we aren't privy to the evidence LEO holds, the former prosecutor stated there are at least three signatures. I wouldn't want them to release any data that would hurt the victims' families but surely there's another clue the public can have since what they've released thus far hasn't resolved the case. Besides, they've only shared what evidence Libby managed to capture!

I don't understand LEO asking for information regarding a vehicle parked at the old building. It seems he would have parked at the cemetery for his purposes, especially if he intended to kidnap the girls and whisk them away in a vehicle.
.

 

[heartgoesout]

It is pretty disheartening to think that two young people could be murdered in broad daylight, in a public place, without a soul hearing or seeing anything, and with little convicting evidence left behind. Images of the Blair Witch Project come to mind. IMO

There were people there that day.
People who were there at the exact time of the murders.
People who were at the exact location.
These people claim to have seen or heard nothing.
People who also claimed to be witnesses. Directing the narrative.
The answers are right in from of us IMO.
The devil lies. Evil is not truthful.

 

[AC4RD]

[QUOTE="heartgoesout, post: 17208764, ... ...
People who also claimed to be witnesses. Directing the narrative.
The answers are right in from of us IMO.
... ....[/QUOTE]
Heart, you're right on the same general opinion that Molly3D and DeeDee and Unapologetically have been on--and me, too. Who in the world could do this? I mean, savage brutal killers are a dime a dozen in our society, and it's not even just a modern thing. But this freak BG: He would not have done this unless he was fairly sure he could get away with it, right? And the circumstances--public place with people not far away. A couple of screams might have brought rescuers BG didn't know were nearby. WHO can possibly fit that general picture?

He wasn't pretending to be a LEO; he wasn't in uniform, he wasn't dressed like any sort of authority figure AFAICT. But he still is someone who was sure he could control two teenagers, without any significant fuss, in a non-private location. WHO? HOW? I think this is the big mystery that haunts many of us: Who? How? If Jack the Ripper had been caught and hanged, he'd be a minor footnote in crime history. The fact that he COULD commit horrible crimes and not be identified, with people all around--THAT makes it a mystery that still compels our attention.

When you say "claimed to be witnesses," do you have anyone specific in mind? (Maybe that's one of the things the WS TOS say we can't openly discuss here, isn't it?)