Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #142

[IceIce9]

This article has some interesting facts about Amber Alerts, and a list of the number of Amber Alert requests and the number that were activated.


Why wasn't an Amber Alert issued when girls were reported missing in Carroll County?

https://www.wrtv.com/homepage-showc...0634401.1643855415-amp-04PmhAjUHJVtCudsgqx3Iw

 

[somequestions]

First question~

IMO , we don't know what mode of transportation , if any the killer used.
Could have been a bicycle. He may have left on foot. If he was a local, there are homes along Deer creek and others nearby. If snowbirds were not at home- he could well know who they were and taken refuge inside of a home or outbuilding until he was "cleaned up" and felt bold enough to move about.

Second question~

It's possible that he waited for an opportune time to move ahead with his attack.
Maybe there were other people in the vicinity prior to his attempt?
Or, maybe he had HOPED they would make their way down the bridge KNOWING that he could "trap" them there. They would have to wait for him to get to where they were before they could attempt to recross. It's also likely that he sensed they nervousness/fear , and he took FULL advantage of that.

AMOO MOO JMO

Anything is possible, but I think many times the idea of "home" is central to how these types of criminals think. It would appear a little unique to me that a criminal like this would commit the crime out in the woods if their home were nearby.

As for the time aspect, I cannot explain that other than maybe this person stalked them for a while out there in the Monon High Bridge area? It comes down to how you think about a given situation. For example, if Abby and Libby were all the way down by the Monon High Bridge and the man saw they were alone, what would prevent him from acting in that moment of realization? He waited till they were nearly across the bridge before he acted.

It must have been a patient killer, first not knowing when victims would show up in that area of the end of the trail and then waiting for them to cross so the killer could put a barrier, a large wooden bridge, between himself and any potential witnesses who may have been walking that direction.

 

[somequestions]

idk..you have to think about which could have been more dangerous for him.. leaving a vehicle that can be spotted.. or walking a long distance and hitchhiking ..
this was suggested very early in the case when LE asked if anyone recalled seeing someone walking by the road..and they asked specifically about a bag discarded

I think LE is guessing about all of that. They are probably thinking the same thing I am: There had to be a vehicle or a way to leave the immediate area. This is why they asked about that white car parked near some building by the trail or the bag or potential walkers along the road. This is my opinion.

In my opinion, I do not think if someone had potentially wet pants they would hitchhike. That would make them memorable.

 

[AmandaSkis]

Maybe I’m being optimistic, but I’ve always felt that LE has someone in mind but there’s a (false) alibi. Once the alibi giver comes clean, then maybe there will be some momentum.

 

[MistyWaters]

AMBER ALERT CRITERIA
The child must be under 18 years of age. The child must be believed to be abducted, AND in danger of serious bodily harm or death. There must be enough descriptive information to believe the broadcast will help. Request must be recommended by the law enforcement agency of jurisdiction.
View attachment 332342
IN.gov | The Official Website of the State of Indiana › amberalert › a...
Amber Alert Plan - IN.gov

So if a concerned parent calls 911 because her 13 year old child was dropped off in the woods with a friend but didn’t show up for her ride home. She also didn’t answer her phone. The parent called friends but no one knew where she was. It was getting dark soon and she believes her child could have been abducted from the woods or in danger of serious bodily injury or death. She knew what clothes she was wearing that day. And LE is going to tell her no to an Amber Alert? IMO

This discussion regularly comes up over and so how would’ve an amber alert been helpful in this case?

Lots of criticism has been put toward LE but I can’t think of a good reason we’d add to it by criticizing them for something that would’ve proved totally useless as we now know the girls were not abducted and never left from the trail area.

 

[MollyDDD]

This discussion regularly comes up over and so how would’ve an amber alert been helpful in this case?

Lots of criticism has been put toward LE but I can’t think of a good reason we’d add to it by criticizing them for something that would’ve proved totally useless as we now know the girls were not abducted and never left from the trail area.

But no one knew that at the time, did they?

What criteria wasn’t met for an Amber Alert? The girls were missing. They were left alone in the woods and were supposed to meet their ride home at a certain time but they never showed up. Didn’t answer their cell phone either. The woods can be a dangerous place for two young girls, especially with a dangerous 60 foot bridge that was off limits to pedestrians. Their clothing was describable.
At the time people were searching in other local places where they thought the girls could have gone to. They could have been anywhere and the alert would have alerted many more people to be on the look out. Who knows, maybe someone could have seen the killer walking about and later helped to identify him. And more importantly, Officer, at the time, they didn’t know they were already dead. IMO

Search dogs would have detected their path, right to their bodies as well as possibly indicated the escape route of the killer, or even found him if he was hiding in the woods, or inside a car. Again, at the time, Officer, they didn’t know they were dead. In fact, they could have still been alive and survived to tell the tale. IMO

It will be interesting to learn the primary cause of death.
I sure hope it wasn’t hypothermia, before they succumbed to their brutal injuries. IMO

MollyDDD, Monday at 11:17 PMReport
#163+ QuoteReply

 

[sunshineray]

Yes, if there was an official document or audio that LE produced and gave to AW who gave it GH who then presented that document/audio, it would be first-hand. LE telling AW something who then tells GH something then tells us something is not first-hand.

I was under the impression that AW heard the audio herself, as well as saw the video (more than the few seconds released to the public) of the girls as BG was approaching them. She wrote her first hand experience down and that's what was shared. I don't understand why that would change it being the first hand account of AW? History books and archives are full of written first hand accounts that stand as fact and reference.

I do understand it's not LE offically telling the public something. It is though, IMO, a mother of a victim giving us her first hand account of evidence she experienced.

Please don't think I want to argue, I truly don't. We just don't agree and that's alright. I appreciate your thoughts, your views.

 

[acutename]

I also wondered if LE narrowed down a suspect later in the investigation and he looks nothing like the 1st sketch so they released a 2nd sketch to look a lot like him to see if this jogs a persons memory and to "to fit" a prosecution later on?

I thought the idea was that they try to determine everyone(!) who was in the general area at the time of the murder - maybe also how they got there and what they were doing and when they left. After two years, they had a description with incomplete information... (or they have a sketch of the catfish...) "someone saw something that needed to be reported..."
Delphi murders: Investigators have had suspect sketch for 2 ...
https://www.indystar.com › story › news › 2019/04/23
Apr 23, 2019 — The picture was based on the description of a person who saw something that the person felt needed to be reported, according to the sketch ...

A crazy thing to me is, IMO, that if they interviewed the murderer, they (the police) most definitely heard the voice.

 

[Charlot123]

I think the question lies mostly with the fact that as the story gets repeated, details can change. I do believe that even though GH is basically not everyone's favorite host, he does carefully vet his facts and the people that speak about this case in particular. So, while most of us are comfortable accepting what comes from him and his videos- we cannot say that any of it is verbatim or that somewhere along the way small and/or nuanced details may have changed.

AMOO JMO MOO

EBM to correct spelling

To be honest - I can’t watch his shows, they are too long, but - his information is checked, and he has never been the source of those gossips and legends that grow legs... Let us say that GH provides “reasonable and respected opinion”.

This discussion regularly comes up over and so how would’ve an amber alert been helpful in this case?

Lots of criticism has been put toward LE but I can’t think of a good reason we’d add to it by criticizing them for something that would’ve proved totally useless as we now know the girls were not abducted and never left from the trail area.

OK I see one more reason to state that everything was over by 2:30 or 3:15 PM.

Do I believe it? Frankly, I don’t know, but as LE were wrong with the OBG vs YBG, they might be wrong here. If they are right, it might be only because someone was seen somewhere on a camera, as no pathologist can provide the time of death that precisely. (I feel sorry for ISP, the case appears too huge for even Monsieur Maigret, and here are small, overworked, rural cops, so no criticism implied).

 

[sunshineray]

Snipped and BBM from acutename post.

A crazy thing to me is, IMO, that if they interviewed the murderer, they (the police) most definitely heard the voice


Just like Sheriff Leazenby said in that 2-part HLN special "Down The Hill". At around 1:15 mark in the preview video, in this People's article.

I can't watch the special again to find the bigger conversation he says it in. Unfortunately not all of HLN's specials are available for re-watching on my cable service's on demand.

HLN Special Down the Hill Examines Unsolved 2017 Murders of 2 Indiana Girls

 

[sandy_80]

I think LE is guessing about all of that. They are probably thinking the same thing I am: There had to be a vehicle or a way to leave the immediate area. This is why they asked about that white car parked near some building by the trail or the bag or potential walkers along the road. This is my opinion.

In my opinion, I do not think if someone had potentially wet pants they would hitchhike. That would make them memorable.

we dont know if he didnt walk long enough for everything to look normal or if he had a change of clothes ...also ppl dont normally look really well at ppl and note these things in general

 

[Tiff23fr]

Mod Note:

It is time to move past the Amber Alert debates in this thread. There has been nothing reported to indicate an Amber Alert would have changed the outcome of the girls heart breaking fate. Additionally, debates of an amber alert at this time does not progress discussion of what happened, by whom and why. Time to let it go.

Thanks for understanding,
Tiff

 

[IceIce9]

we dont know if he didnt walk long enough for everything to look normal or if he had a change of clothes ...also ppl dont normally look really well at ppl and note these things in general

Although it was unseasonably warm here that day it wasn’t warm enough that wet clothes would have dried. I think someone who picked up a hitchhiker would have noticed pants wet to the knees. MOO

 

[somequestions]

l

we dont know if he didnt walk long enough for everything to look normal or if he had a change of clothes ...also ppl dont normally look really well at ppl and note these things in general

True. In a case where you do not have a lot of information one can only speculate about what the killer may have done, where he may have gone after the murders, and why he may have made the decisions he did.

I definitely agree with your last statement about people not noticing. People will notice, but only when it seems strange or unusual. Even the police statement about how the girls were left in the woods is a visual indication that something about the crime scene was noticeable to the point that it left an impression. Unfortunately since we have no idea about what the crime scene looked like, we can only speculate.

I still think it was a refrigerated truck driver that murdered Abby and Libby. The clothing out on the trail and the patience to abduct them without a vehicle nearby suggest to me it is a possibility that an older man who works as a truck driver murdered Abby and Libby. That would explain my last question: Where was the vehicle? With it possibly being a semi truck, that is a question that has to be answered. My guess is that the vehicle was parked far enough away from the Monon High Bridge area that the killer had a long walk to it after the crime. Wherever he walked and whatever street he was on, it must have been rather desolate or people simply did not notice.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

l


True. In a case where you do not have a lot of information one can only speculate about what the killer may have done, where he may have gone after the murders, and why he may have made the decisions he did.

I definitely agree with your last statement about people not noticing. People will notice, but only when it seems strange or unusual. Even the police statement about how the girls were left in the woods is a visual indication that something about the crime scene was noticeable to the point that it left an impression. Unfortunately since we have no idea about what the crime scene looked like, we can only speculate.

I still think it was a refrigerated truck driver that murdered Abby and Libby. The clothing out on the trail and the patience to abduct them without a vehicle nearby suggest to me it is a possibility that an older man who works as a truck driver murdered Abby and Libby. That would explain my last question: Where was the vehicle? With it possibly being a semi truck, that is a question that has to be answered. My guess is that the vehicle was parked far enough away from the Monon High Bridge area that the killer had a long walk to it after the crime. Wherever he walked and whatever street he was on, it must have been rather desolate or people simply did not notice.

This is the second or third time in the last couple of weeks someone has mentioned “a refrigerated truck driver”.
Is this just part of a generalized scenario or somebody specific that has entered the conversation? No names necessary of course. Just trying to understand the narrative.

 

[sandy_80]

Although it was unseasonably warm here that day it wasn’t warm enough that wet clothes would have dried. I think someone who picked up a hitchhiker would have noticed pants wet to the knees. MOO

I WOULD to argue with that by mentioning the alleged encounter between the zodiac and the 2 officers minutes after he killed a cabbie with a shot in the head and removed his shirt ..yet the officer who seen him noticed nothing unusual and def not blood ..this was at nigh tho
so we simply dont kno

 

[TheVisual]

Anything is possible, but I think many times the idea of "home" is central to how these types of criminals think. It would appear a little unique to me that a criminal like this would commit the crime out in the woods if their home were nearby.

As for the time aspect, I cannot explain that other than maybe this person stalked them for a while out there in the Monon High Bridge area? It comes down to how you think about a given situation. For example, if Abby and Libby were all the way down by the Monon High Bridge and the man saw they were alone, what would prevent him from acting in that moment of realization? He waited till they were nearly across the bridge before he acted.

It must have been a patient killer, first not knowing when victims would show up in that area of the end of the trail and then waiting for them to cross so the killer could put a barrier, a large wooden bridge, between himself and any potential witnesses who may have been walking that direction.

I would be surprised if no one saw him if he was sitting on the bench unless he came up through the woods from the cemetary.

 

[IceIce9]

l


True. In a case where you do not have a lot of information one can only speculate about what the killer may have done, where he may have gone after the murders, and why he may have made the decisions he did.

I definitely agree with your last statement about people not noticing. People will notice, but only when it seems strange or unusual. Even the police statement about how the girls were left in the woods is a visual indication that something about the crime scene was noticeable to the point that it left an impression. Unfortunately since we have no idea about what the crime scene looked like, we can only speculate.

I still think it was a refrigerated truck driver that murdered Abby and Libby. The clothing out on the trail and the patience to abduct them without a vehicle nearby suggest to me it is a possibility that an older man who works as a truck driver murdered Abby and Libby. That would explain my last question: Where was the vehicle? With it possibly being a semi truck, that is a question that has to be answered. My guess is that the vehicle was parked far enough away from the Monon High Bridge area that the killer had a long walk to it after the crime. Wherever he walked and whatever street he was on, it must have been rather desolate or people simply did not notice.

By “refrigerated truck driver” are you referring to a semi truck driver from the meat packing plant? Or some other type of refrigerated truck?

 

[margarita25]

I’m wondering again/lately if he was on a bicycle, or something similar, motorized dirt bike, something like that.

 

[TL4S]

It must have been a patient killer, first not knowing when victims would show up in that area of the end of the trail and then waiting for them to cross so the killer could put a barrier, a large wooden bridge, between himself and any potential witnesses who may have been walking that direction.

That's very true that the bridge put a barrier between himself and any witnesses. To me, though, the bridge, along with the formal end of the trail and the creek itself, worked in conjunction to corner the girls, leaving them no way to go back the direction from which they came. In all reality, somebody could have entered the trail and gotten to the north end of bridge before he even reached the south end. Or they could have started crossing while he and the girls were walking down below. Even if he'd watched for other people for awhile on the north side, there was no way for him to know who might enter the picture in the minutes it took for him to cross, or in the time it took for them to go DTH and through the creek. Imo, it just shows how very risky it all was. The element of the unknown in a crime like this makes me question how much thought he really put into it before hand, things such as where to park, where to exit, etc. I don't think there was much planning involved, or else he could have planned something with less risk. IDK...just tossing around the idea. And I guess if anyone had entered the picture unexpectedly, he could have just not gone through with it.