Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #148

[Ravenmoon]

The problem is even if only two different individuals had access, prosecution has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt which one it was.

Understood.Which is why I believe that both are guilty in some way.

MOO

 

[Ravenmoon]

Since no-one ever seems to want to actually provide details of their claims wrt to the transcipt:

The KAK transcript, page 181 lines 19-22.

So the source is LE saying a female witness told them anthony_shots said the "oh my god ...."

So no evidence that KAK said it.
[edit to add missed no!]

In that same transcript, KAK does admit that he looked up information on the murders.
If there was any way that someone else could be guilty through the account he created WHY would he hesitate to give them up?
What would he have to lose?

I don't understand why people are hesitant to see how deep his involvement is.

I will just keep a lid on anything else that seems logical to me.

MOO

 

[NoSpoonFeeding]

He deleted items from his phone that connected him to the murder victim, yet easily gave over incriminating photos that would certainly give him serious jail time.
He responded to a text from the murder victims friend that asks him, Did you hear about Liberty? By saying OMG no, what happened? I was supposed to meet her, she never showed up.

Circumstantial evidence CAN BE used and is reliable.
These things, IMO are much more than trivial coincidences

I can't tell if you think this information is sufficient for him to be charged, or just for him to be considered a suspect in a homicide.

Every one of your points has to be nitpicked over to see if a prosecutor could even use the information at trial.

So far, all of this is hearsay and/or conjecture. Is there an actual person, that can testify to the "I was supposed to meet her"? Will her phone records support her claim that they communicated? Is she credible or just trying to insert herself into the case?

Circumstantial evidence has to be admissible in court and stand up to objections from the defense. A judge is not going to allow witnesses and/or evidence that doesn't meet the standards.

KAK could be guilty as **** but as it stands now, apparently nothing puts him at the scene.

 

[Ravenmoon]

I can't tell if you think this information is sufficient for him to be charged, or just for him to be considered a suspect in a homicide.

Every one of your points has to be nitpicked over to see if a prosecutor could even use the information at trial.

So far, all of this is hearsay and/or conjecture. Is there an actual person, that can testify to the "I was supposed to meet her"? Will her phone records support her claim that they communicated? Is she credible or just trying to insert herself into the case?

Circumstantial evidence has to be admissible in court and stand up to objections from the defense. A judge is not going to allow witnesses and/or evidence that doesn't meet the standards.

KAK could be guilty as **** but as it stands now, apparently nothing puts him at the scene.

I believe LE has enough to charge him, yes.
No, obviously what I have stated is not enough to convict him.

I will assume that LE has much more than we imagine.

 

[Ravenmoon]

I can't tell if you think this information is sufficient for him to be charged, or just for him to be considered a suspect in a homicide.

Every one of your points has to be nitpicked over to see if a prosecutor could even use the information at trial.

So far, all of this is hearsay and/or conjecture. Is there an actual person, that can testify to the "I was supposed to meet her"? Will her phone records support her claim that they communicated? Is she credible or just trying to insert herself into the case?

Circumstantial evidence has to be admissible in court and stand up to objections from the defense. A judge is not going to allow witnesses and/or evidence that doesn't meet the standards.

KAK could be guilty as **** but as it stands now, apparently nothing puts him at the scene.

Also, my original thought behind the posts were to remind people that circumstantial evidence is still quite valid.
We all want to have more physical evidence so that it all ties together, but it is not always available.

JMO

 

[carbuff]

No doubt, doesn't mean it was KAK using that account though, that is a maybe a problem for prosecution of KAK and/or TK, no way to tie use of account directly to either of them.

There's a bank robbery/kidnapping case in my town that they've been unable to charge anybody with because they can't prove which of two identical twin brothers committed the crime. It's been at least 15 years.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I can't tell if you think this information is sufficient for him to be charged, or just for him to be considered a suspect in a homicide.

Every one of your points has to be nitpicked over to see if a prosecutor could even use the information at trial.

So far, all of this is hearsay and/or conjecture. Is there an actual person, that can testify to the "I was supposed to meet her"? Will her phone records support her claim that they communicated? Is she credible or just trying to insert herself into the case?

Circumstantial evidence has to be admissible in court and stand up to objections from the defense. A judge is not going to allow witnesses and/or evidence that doesn't meet the standards.

KAK could be guilty as **** but as it stands now, apparently nothing puts him at the scene.

Circumstantial evidence has the same weight as direct evidence in a trial. A judge is not going to weigh it’s admissibility any differently than direct evidence. It’s significance will be decided by the jury. Guilty people are convicted every day on nothing but circumstantial evidence.
Just my opinion, but I believe LE has a lot more than the information in that interview transcript or they wouldn’t have been hanging on to the Klines for so long. They might have been small unimpressive pieces to the puzzle and not enough to charge anybody, but they were pieces nonetheless. Those pieces kept them focused on the Klines until, apparently, KAK decided to talk.

edit: typo

 

[IQuestion]

Fact KAK did create A_S account and Em A account in Feb. 2016. As stated in transcript and also interview with BarMcD ....remember?? "I DON'T KNOW WHY I DID IT. I GUESS I WAS LONELY." (Not yelling, just emphasizing.) And, let it not be forgotten he was willing to admit havng tons of "bad stuff" on his cellphones, claiming he "WAS A MINOR AT THE TIME" until, LE pointed out he was not a minor at the time.
KAK had all his "pat answers" he was going to use to get out of his self-made mess. He probably has used them a thousand times over. When caught with *advertiser censored* on his devices:
"I have a problem." (Yep, that is the understatement of the decade.)
"Oh that was when I was a minor."
"Oh that was because I was lonely."
"Lots of people have drop boxes." (Owning a drop box is not criminal. KAK...you are a criminal using a drop box.)
"I found my phone in the kitchen after I came back from the polygragh test."
"I found and expensive cell phone in a rental car in Las Vegas, right after the murders."
This guy is sick, sickest, sicko ever! (okay, I did yell just then)

The problem is even if only two different individuals had access, prosecution has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt which one it was.

I think "reasonable doubt" is pretty easy to overcome if shown TK was at work and not at Peru house when the phone was regularly used. Or, it it bounced off towers near his job during work breaks (yucky thought). I think the GPS feature and Cellbrite would pretty much "lock up" that issue. It will be interesting, but a really smart lady testifying for the prosecution in the Teresa Sievers (miss ya' gal!) murder was able to show proximity and use etc. using Cellbrite. She was brilliant btw.

 

[IQuestion]

My cheers for RAVENMOON...... good to have you back posting~

 

[Ravenmoon]

My cheers for RAVENMOON...... good to have you back posting~

Much appreciated.
I just feel so deeply that an arrest will soon be made.
This case has been the one case that I watch each and every day ( like so many others)
My heart is in it 100 percent.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

My cheers for RAVENMOON...... good to have you back posting~

Excellent posts with excellent points, Ravenmoon. Fight the good fight, friend!

 

[NoSpoonFeeding]

I don't understand why people are hesitant to see how deep his involvement is.

I might feel he's involved in a murder, but that doesn't change what is known or provable. In my opinion
We don't have the most basic facts, such as proving where KAK was at the time of the murders, placing him at the scene, etc. I believe in our rules of evidence and court system. I'm not wanting someone to be arrested without probable cause or prosecuted without the proper evidence, even if I passionately believe in their guilt.

I believe LE has enough to charge him, yes.
No, obviously what I have stated is not enough to convict him.

I will assume that LE has much more than we imagine.

The prosecutors have filing standards, especially for murder. If the case is not in anyway going to get a guilty plea or verdict, it won't be filed.

Also, my original thought behind the posts were to remind people that circumstantial evidence is still quite valid.

Circumstancial evidence is valid, but in my opinion and court experience, your list does not meet the test for admissiable circumstancial evidence.

Circumstantial evidence has the same weight as direct evidence in a trial. A judge is not going to weigh it’s admissibility any different than direct evidence. It’s significance will be decided by the jury. Guilty people are convicted every day on nothing but circumstantial evidence.
Just my opinion, but I believe LE has a lot more than the information in that interview transcript or they wouldn’t have been hanging on to the Klines for so long. They might have been small unimpressive pieces to the puzzle and not enough to charge anybody, but they were pieces nonetheless. Those pieces kept them focused on the Klines until, apparently, KAK decided to talk.

You're missing my point, the list the OP gave, is NOT circumstantial evidence. Not without someone testifying, not without documentation, etc, which we do not know to exist.
I specifically stated that circumstantial evidence is valid.

If you're going to call hearsay "circumstantial evidence", it will almost always be not admissible. A prosecutor is not going to intentionally attempt to use inadmissible evidence without consequences.

 

[NoSpoonFeeding]

Fact KAK did create A_S account and Em A account in Feb. 2016. As stated in transcript and also interview with BarMcD ....remember?? "I DON'T KNOW WHY I DID IT. I GUESS I WAS LONELY." (Not yelling, just emphasizing.) And, let it not be forgotten he was willing to admit havng tons of "bad stuff" on his cellphones, claiming he "WAS A MINOR AT THE TIME" until, LE pointed out he was not a minor at the time.

I don't think anyone is questioning the facts/evidence being used in the case KAK has pending, and it is notable, in my opinion, that when confronted with proof, KAK is more likely to make admissions of guilt.

 

[raja]

Since no-one ever seems to want to actually provide details of their claims wrt to the transcipt:

The KAK transcript, page 181 lines 19-22.

So the source is LE saying a female witness told them anthony_shots said the "oh my god ...."

So no evidence that KAK said it.
[edit to add missed no!]

We don’t know if she said it or if it was via text messaging etc.

 

[getthefax]

You've got a guy who has admitted to victimizing girls that age, who had prior online contact with a Libby, who apparently had plans to meet with her on the bridge that day (according to what the detective said during that interview).

He's temporarily removed from jail, and around that time water searches begin near to where he lived.

Yup, connected all right.

+1

 

[digiskunk]

My unsolicited two cents, maybe it was TK who set up the meet? So a denial by KAK but a half truth, since I believe anthony_shots was an account created and used by KAK...possible shared with more people though. AJMO

For some reason, I can't see TK being the "baiter" simply because KK is younger and thus would be "more familiar" with how to talk to young kids. It's incredibly sick to even think about, but for some reason this makes more sense to me. But then again, there are so many things that factor into this case that I don't know what to believe anymore...

 

[cbeagle]

We don’t know if she said it or if it was via text messaging etc.

in the lines I referenced:

"we have witnesses that talk to Anthony Shots that said they were talking about meeting up" - page 181,lines 19,20

"she said Anthony Shots told her ..." - page 181, line 21.

 

[JnRyan]

I'm a veteran metal detectorist. A metal detector coil must pass over an object in order to detect it. Coils vary in size, so lets say they use a coil that's somewhere around a foot in diameter. It takes a long time to properly grid and search an area the size of a football field. I'm not saying that's their area, I'm just giving an example here. It can take weeks.

Plus, we don't know what they're searching for. Is it an earring? Or a firearm? A metal detector will surely hit on either. But it takes some careful and deliberate searching to properly cover a sizable area...and lots of time.

The interesting thing here is the idea I had that they may be searching for a non-ferrous item, as powerful magnets are available to pull ferrous items from a stream bed. Just a hunch.

So we could be hearing about this search for a while. And even after it is over it could be weeks or months before LE states what it was all about.

 

[Arkay]

There's a bank robbery/kidnapping case in my town that they've been unable to charge anybody with because they can't prove which of two identical twin brothers committed the crime. It's been at least 15 years.

Does this mean no usable fingerprints were found?

I'm an identical twin. In fact, my sister took one of those DNA test kits and so did my granddaughter. They came up as each other's grandmother and granddaughter, so I never even bothered to do my own test kit.

YET, we have different fingerprints. All identical twins do. Our fingerprints come from the various ways our developing fingertips touched our mother's womb. Therefore, they are not identical.

I'm hoping over the course of 15 years, some prints were found, but I infer they weren't. How sad.

KAK and TK are not going to have identical DNA, just partial. IMO everything depends now on DNA if there's no confession currently going on.

It's still possible that BG was just a wanderer, at a terrible moment for L and A.

I do have suspects in mind, but I vacillate between which one is most likely.

 

[IceIce9]

there is talk about tk having a severed foot or somthin which might give him a strange gait .. this rumor isnt even visible in pictures and he wears shorts ...that was what i was thinking aloud about

Not a severed foot, a toe amputation, but it was after the murders. So his toe amputation would have nothing to do with BG gait on the bridge.