IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 13, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #3

[Deleted member 278]

The orangish brown object in the foreground of the picture, my first thought when I saw it was shotgun casing. I can't zoom in on my phone but don't see that color or shape repeated (I.e. Leaves, twigs) in rest of photo.

LE would have picked it up.

 

[DexterMorgan]

Is it possible that one of the girls were meeting up with someone out there?But didn't really know the person.

 

[No it's not]

Hmm..kinda interesting

Marker 2:30ff

http://www.wthr.com/article/memorial-grows-as-police-continue-search-for-delphi-girls-killer

 

[Gardenista]

I'm not sure I have it totally accurate, but I put it together using maps from news sights and comparing it to a topo and aerial I found online.

Great post and map, but my understanding is they were found due south of the cemetery

 

[katydid23]

http://www.wthr.com/article/memorial-grows-as-police-continue-search-for-delphi-girls-killer

Carter brought his mother out to see the bridge. Jeanine Carter has studied the photo of the male subject released by police.

"We got the magnifying glass out," she said. "Those are what we call 'hunting pants,' what somebody into bird hunting would wear. Those were popular in the '90s."




....HUNTING PANTS? I thought they were just old blue jeans?

 

[IceIce9]

Another couple things I wanted to point- Timeline, while it is tight, whoever did this had at least 3.5 hours to get out of there and possibly more. All we know is that they were supposed to be picked up at 3 or 3:30 pm and they weren't answering texts. That doesn't mean they weren't still alive. I also haven't seen a confirmed time when someone actually went there to pick them up. There wasn't a call put in to LE that they were missing until 5:30 and I would imagine it would take at least a few minutes to get anyone out there.

What I don't know is if a family member showed up at 3 or 3:30 after texts weren't answered or if they waited around a bit for them to answer and then headed out. I do recall hearing that someone went out there to pick them up and maybe yelled their names, but I do not know if that was MSM.

The fact that they weren't found that first night absolutely baffles me. Within 3/4 of a mile from where they were seen last and no reports have made it sound like they were hidden at all. That would have been just a few minutes walk away. Even when toddlers walk away it seems 1/2 mile or so is the initial search perimeter. They were searching for 5 hours at least and they didn't make it 3/4 mile down a creek?

I agree with whoever mentioned LE treating it as a runaway case from the very beginning. Do the girls have a history of running off? Did they have reason to believe it was a possibility other than the fact they are teenage girls?

I feel that valuable search time was wasted when the search was called off the first evening. Quite possible that the girls were still alive at that point and could have been rescued.

i think that small town Indiana LE had a false sense of security and imagined that the girls ran away or were visiting friends. Probably this tragic result was not even on their radar.

 

[IllinoisMissing]

Where were the girls supposed to meet their ride? Was it the same place they were dropped off or a location across the Monon Bridge? Am I correct that they were dropped off on the 300 side of the bridge?

If it were the W300 N side, it would have been easier for the perp to watch and cut them off as they were about to come off the bridge to meet their ride. The instagram photos show that they obviously made it out onto the bridge.

The instagram photo posted with Abby Williams in the photo appears to have been taken in the direction toward where I believe they were dropped off. There is the alleged figure in the rear of the photo and I can see what people have debated could be a person, but it is hardly conclusive. It does show that nobody else is on the bridge with them.

The black and white instagram photo was taken looking in the other direction and again there is nobody else on the bridge.

It makes the most sense to me that they were approached or ambushed from the north side of the bridge(same side they were found and dropped off) for several reasons. I'm attaching an aerial image I've added some comments to for reference.

1. the bridge is elevated over a considerable distance and not easy to traverse. If they were approached from the South side and redirected North, then they would have been able to see someone approaching or had to have been walked back across. Walking back across would seem risky in broad daylight because it would take time because of the condition of the bridge. This is the main reason I feel that they likely encountered the perp just off the end of the North Side of the bridge or close to it.

2. The rough terrain on the side where they were found makes me wonder how the ended up where they did. Were they chased or lead? Were they found together? From maps I've seen online, they were reportedly found near the bend and close to the rear of a home on W300N. This is across 3 drainage ditches and through rough terrain when looking at online topo maps. The creek banks have steep areas as well and it is wooded. This leads me to believe that the perp had control of them for the entire duration of them traveling from the bridge to where they were found. It would seem unlikely that they would run through such rough terrain over such a distance from someone and not naturally get separated from each other. This would be risky for the perp as well.

3. So if the perp controlled them from the bridge until the location where they were found, it makes me wonder how much was planned and the level of sophistication involved. Did the perp control them and take them where he did because it was in the direction of where he planned to exit the area? Where he had a car parked?

4. If the POI on the bridge has something to do with it, when was the photo taken and what direction was he heading? If he is the perp, then it wouldn't make a lot of sense to me that he'd be back on the bridge after the crime unless it didn't go at all as planned or if it was even planned at all unless he had reason for parking a car on the opposite side of the bridge from where the crime occurred. Also, it would lead me to believe that there should be a second set of photos from a stationary camera with him heading in the opposite direction. I have read nothing that suggests those are the only photos of the POI. I have also not seen it confirmed as to whether are not those are trail cam/stationary cam photos.

I hope I'm not breaking the rules by discussing these items and will gladly delete if so. This is such a sad and troubling case and it has some puzzling aspects. I'm a father of 2 little girls and this type of thing scares me to death. I really want to see this resolved.

Great post! Welcome.

Way back I posted that I thought they were taken from the parking area on 300 N. That spot is on the same road as the property where they were found.

It's a 1 minute drive or an 11 minute walk. This makes the most sense to me. I think he forced them to walk down to the crime scene.

Sent from my SM-G928T using Tapatalk

 

[pandorasbox]

Most meat packing places are fast paced work for little pay and butchering and killing animals can take a toll on your psychy. So let's say a drifter working at the Tyson meat packing plant in Iowa commits crime then moves. His skill set limits him to certain jobs so he finds another meat packing place say Delphi area and years later gets the urge to kill again. Don't know just throwing out ideas since we are super limited on actual details.

There's even a Tyson plant in Logansport, Indiana 20 miles up 25 from there. He could have transferred there and moved over...

 

[Jabarn]

Before the girls were found:

Missing, abducted, we don’t know for sure,” said Patty.” The cellphone has been pinging around town – and here there is a cellphone tower – but the ping was last noted around five to six hours ago. And they say the phone is now dead.”

http://wlfi.com/2017/02/14/community-continues-to-search-for-missing-teens-in-carroll-county/

Later:
Asked whether either of the girls' cell phones were recovered, the officers declined to comment. At least one of the victims had a cell phone and had posted photos to social media before she died. It's not clear if the picture of the man in blue jeans was taken by one of the girls.

http://www.wthr.com/article/police-seek-help-identifying-person-seen-on-delphi-trail

It does make me wonder if the killer(s) took their phones.

 

[katydid23]

Re: date of death
On another case on websleuths the date on the victim's death certificate was given as the date that the body was discovered even though it was obvious the deceased had been dead for a month. This seems to be protocol in many states.
However the obituary can be generated by the family or funeral home using information supplied to them about estimated date of death rather than the date of discovery.

I would think in this instance one family has used the date of death and one the date of discovery. I would be very surprised to find out that either girl survived past the afternoon of their disappearance.

I agree. Having, sadly, written two obits recently, it was really up to me to decide what to put for the date of death. One situation was obvious. But in the other, our family had to agree to take someone off life support. In reality, they had died months earlier, and I wanted to use that date. But I didn't do so. Still, the date of death in an obit is not objective but a personal subjective decision. JMO

 

[mazblondie]

Where were the girls supposed to meet their ride? Was it the same place they were dropped off or a location across the Monon Bridge? Am I correct that they were dropped off on the 300 side of the bridge?

If it were the W300 N side, it would have been easier for the perp to watch and cut them off as they were about to come off the bridge to meet their ride. The instagram photos show that they obviously made it out onto the bridge.

The instagram photo posted with Abby Williams in the photo appears to have been taken in the direction toward where I believe they were dropped off. There is the alleged figure in the rear of the photo and I can see what people have debated could be a person, but it is hardly conclusive. It does show that nobody else is on the bridge with them.

The black and white instagram photo was taken looking in the other direction and again there is nobody else on the bridge.

It makes the most sense to me that they were approached or ambushed from the north side of the bridge(same side they were found and dropped off) for several reasons. I'm attaching an aerial image I've added some comments to for reference.

1. the bridge is elevated over a considerable distance and not easy to traverse. If they were approached from the South side and redirected North, then they would have been able to see someone approaching or had to have been walked back across. Walking back across would seem risky in broad daylight because it would take time because of the condition of the bridge. This is the main reason I feel that they likely encountered the perp just off the end of the North Side of the bridge or close to it.

2. The rough terrain on the side where they were found makes me wonder how the ended up where they did. Were they chased or lead? Were they found together? From maps I've seen online, they were reportedly found near the bend and close to the rear of a home on W300N. This is across 3 drainage ditches and through rough terrain when looking at online topo maps. The creek banks have steep areas as well and it is wooded. This leads me to believe that the perp had control of them for the entire duration of them traveling from the bridge to where they were found. It would seem unlikely that they would run through such rough terrain over such a distance from someone and not naturally get separated from each other. This would be risky for the perp as well.

3. So if the perp controlled them from the bridge until the location where they were found, it makes me wonder how much was planned and the level of sophistication involved. Did the perp control them and take them where he did because it was in the direction of where he planned to exit the area? Where he had a car parked?

4. If the POI on the bridge has something to do with it, when was the photo taken and what direction was he heading? If he is the perp, then it wouldn't make a lot of sense to me that he'd be back on the bridge after the crime unless it didn't go at all as planned or if it was even planned at all unless he had reason for parking a car on the opposite side of the bridge from where the crime occurred. Also, it would lead me to believe that there should be a second set of photos from a stationary camera with him heading in the opposite direction. I have read nothing that suggests those are the only photos of the POI. I have also not seen it confirmed as to whether are not those are trail cam/stationary cam photos.

I hope I'm not breaking the rules by discussing these items and will gladly delete if so. This is such a sad and troubling case and it has some puzzling aspects. I'm a father of 2 little girls and this type of thing scares me to death. I really want to see this resolved.

Hi bob, great image. Do you know what the terrain is like on the other side of this river? Thats tricky terrain to walk on, and especially if you had two not necessarily co-operating teenagers. Can you cross the river anywhere else do you know? Is it deep? (Or was it deep that day?)

 

[wfsltt]

When the news videos were posted it showed the police going to and parking at Mears Cemetery and this is right beside the property listed as where the girls were found. I do not believe the location of the crime scene is as noted on the picture above. More likely it would be by the blue X otherwise the police would have parked at one of the houses or on the road by the site noted prior.

 

[Spellbound]

I am left handed and wear my watch on my left wrist. Maybe not the norm, but thought I'd share.

Me, too. Watch was always on left wrist. (when I wore a watch)

Welcome Bob Saccamano! Great first post and map!

It is clear a lot of thought is put into this. Thanks for the wonderful first post, and :Welcome1:

 

[Bob Saccamano]

Great post and map, but my understanding is they were found due south of the cemetery

That was the first description of where they were found as well. I've also seen references to "less than a 1/2 Mile" from the bridge and a couple of maps in articles where I got the location I put on the map. It is just a guess based on what I've seen reported. The cemetery is roughly .15-.2 miles from the bridge. The spot on my map is about .45 miles.

 

[roseofsharon]

Thank you Bob Saccamano. Your map is very helpful.

 

[katydid23]

I'm wondering if they came across a moonshine operation and got caught taking a picture of it.

Would a moonshiner brutally kill 2 young girls? I don't think moonshining is that big of a crime to carryout a brutal murder to try and cover it up.

 

[Bob Saccamano]

When the news videos were posted it showed the police going to and parking at Mears Cemetery and this is right beside the property listed as where the girls were found. I do not believe the location of the crime scene is as noted on the picture above. More likely it would be by the blue X otherwise the police would have parked at one of the houses or on the road by the site noted prior.

That was what I read first and have no reason to believe it not to be true.
I got the map from a couple of articles I looked at.

http://www.theindychannel.com/news/...the-two-bodies-were-found-near-delphi-indiana

 

[DiscoPants]

Where were the girls supposed to meet their ride? Was it the same place they were dropped off or a location across the Monon Bridge? Am I correct that they were dropped off on the 300 side of the bridge?

If it were the W300 N side, it would have been easier for the perp to watch and cut them off as they were about to come off the bridge to meet their ride. The instagram photos show that they obviously made it out onto the bridge.

The instagram photo posted with Abby Williams in the photo appears to have been taken in the direction toward where I believe they were dropped off. There is the alleged figure in the rear of the photo and I can see what people have debated could be a person, but it is hardly conclusive. It does show that nobody else is on the bridge with them.

The black and white instagram photo was taken looking in the other direction and again there is nobody else on the bridge.

It makes the most sense to me that they were approached or ambushed from the north side of the bridge(same side they were found and dropped off) for several reasons. I'm attaching an aerial image I've added some comments to for reference.

1. the bridge is elevated over a considerable distance and not easy to traverse. If they were approached from the South side and redirected North, then they would have been able to see someone approaching or had to have been walked back across. Walking back across would seem risky in broad daylight because it would take time because of the condition of the bridge. This is the main reason I feel that they likely encountered the perp just off the end of the North Side of the bridge or close to it.

2. The rough terrain on the side where they were found makes me wonder how the ended up where they did. Were they chased or lead? Were they found together? From maps I've seen online, they were reportedly found near the bend and close to the rear of a home on W300N. This is across 3 drainage ditches and through rough terrain when looking at online topo maps. The creek banks have steep areas as well and it is wooded. This leads me to believe that the perp had control of them for the entire duration of them traveling from the bridge to where they were found. It would seem unlikely that they would run through such rough terrain over such a distance from someone and not naturally get separated from each other. This would be risky for the perp as well.

3. So if the perp controlled them from the bridge until the location where they were found, it makes me wonder how much was planned and the level of sophistication involved. Did the perp control them and take them where he did because it was in the direction of where he planned to exit the area? Where he had a car parked?

4. If the POI on the bridge has something to do with it, when was the photo taken and what direction was he heading? If he is the perp, then it wouldn't make a lot of sense to me that he'd be back on the bridge after the crime unless it didn't go at all as planned or if it was even planned at all unless he had reason for parking a car on the opposite side of the bridge from where the crime occurred. Also, it would lead me to believe that there should be a second set of photos from a stationary camera with him heading in the opposite direction. I have read nothing that suggests those are the only photos of the POI. I have also not seen it confirmed as to whether are not those are trail cam/stationary cam photos.

I hope I'm not breaking the rules by discussing these items and will gladly delete if so. This is such a sad and troubling case and it has some puzzling aspects. I'm a father of 2 little girls and this type of thing scares me to death. I really want to see this resolved.

Great map. I'm curious, has there been any indication that they walked there? You make a great point about them most likely being intercepted at the drop off/pick up area. Could they have been forced into a car and then driven to the cemetery? Its less than a mile, no?

 

[ninij9]

The orangish brown object in the foreground of the picture, my first thought when I saw it was shotgun casing. I can't zoom in on my phone but don't see that color or shape repeated (I.e. Leaves, twigs) in rest of photo.

I saw it also!!! And, I thought the very same thing. Except it's shaped more like a ketchup packet.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[IceIce9]

Would a moonshiner brutally kill 2 young girls? I don't think moonshining is that big of a crime to carryout a brutal murder to try and cover it up.

Moonshine isn't a big crime here. People pretty much make, consume, share and sell moonshine openly.