IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 13, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #3

[Elainera]

Thank you Bob Saccamano for your interesting maps!

 

[Inthedetails]

well doing familial DNA on "suspicious" men led to the arrest of the jogger in NY...remember?

No, that's not how it happened.

Detective work caught the NYC jogger's killer.

The father of the victim is advocating for New York to allow familial DNA, but as of now, NY does not do it.

 

[Athena12]

I think that if LE thought the girls and perp(s) had been in the cemetery, they would have been looking for other people who were in the cemetery that day to question them. As far as I know, there has been no mention of that. They have only talked about questioning people who were on the trail that day.

There's a good chance that the cemetery has security cameras. If so, I'm sure LE has reviewed them and that may be why they are not focusing on the cemetery, because they already know that nothing happened there.

 

[Bob Saccamano]

Thank you Bob Saccamano for your interesting maps!

No problem! I like visuals. It is amazing all of the resources online.

 

[ianthe]

If their hands and ankles were tied it would have been extremely difficult if not impossible to run off. Think 6 inches of rope between the feet. You'd have such a short stride, and you'd likely trip quickly. Whew, really thinking like a serial killer now boys.

I wonder if that's something they were looking for with the search warrant. There are a lot of different varieties of rope...

 

[carbuff]

I was gone for a couple of days--thought for sure I'd come back to news the case had been solved.

 

[steelman]

Some things from looking at this google earth shot-

The terrain is rough. it is a steep drop to the creek in a number of areas.

If he walked them there from the bridge. It had to be with some method of controlling them. The other thing that the creek area is from the line of sight from the bridge until you get to the second area.

I also looked at the cemetery and there does appear to be a an area in the SW corner of it that a car could park and be reasonably hidden. This could support the idea that they were taken from somewhere between the drop off area and bridge and driven to the cemetery.

Again, I'm not sure where they were found as I've seen two different spots referenced.

That's the part I'm having trouble figuring out too............he controlled two completely healthy 13 year old girls.....................in their prime physical condition.

No one heard screaming, yelling, nobody heard signs of distress. I want to remind everyone in this forum......................The search for these girls was called off after the first night !! Why?? Because the searchers were not allowed to cross onto private property.............that's why. It had a barbed wire fence around it. It was only the next morning, when the owner of the private property sent someone out to search, that the girls bodies were found


Keep this in mind on your next "missing person" case.

 

[Bob Saccamano]

If their hands and ankles were tied it would have been extremely difficult if not impossible to run off. Think 6 inches of rope between the feet. You'd have such a short stride, and you'd likely trip quickly. Whew, really thinking like a serial killer now boys.

I wonder if that's something they were looking for with the search warrant. There are a lot of different varieties of rope...

The terrain appears so rough that I am skeptical they could have been bound or carried. Perhaps their hands, but their feet would have made them nearly immobile considering the environment.

 

[njcanuck]

If their hands and ankles were tied it would have been extremely difficult if not impossible to run off. Think 6 inches of rope between the feet. You'd have such a short stride, and you'd likely trip quickly. Whew, really thinking like a serial killer now boys.

I wonder if that's something they were looking for with the search warrant. There are a lot of different varieties of rope...

or maybe Duct Tape?

 

[liltexans]

or maybe Duct Tape?

Or zip ties. We've seen more than one case where zip ties were used.

 

[Bob Saccamano]

That's the part I'm having trouble figuring out too............he controlled two completely healthy 13 year old girls.....................in their prime physical condition.

No one heard screaming, yelling, nobody heard signs of distress. I want to remind everyone in this forum......................The search for these girls was called off after the first night !! Why?? Because the searchers were not allowed to cross onto private property.............that's why. It had a barbed wire fence around it. It was only the next morning, when the owner of the private property sent someone out to search, that the girls bodies were found


Keep this in mind on your next "missing person" case.

Exactly. It seems it would have taken a plan and considerable time to walk them through such an area. I don't think it is possible without taking them at gunpoint.

It makes me think this is hardly a crime of opportunity, at least not totally. I feel like the perp had to go there prepared.

 

[Wondergirl]

Hi first time post here. I have read all the posts on this and was looking at the two girls killed in iowa. I find it odd that they were both found in recreational areas near water and there are large meat packing plants within a few miles of where these crimes happened. Is this something that LE looks into like who worked at both plants during those times. If they are here illegally like a lot of the workers at meat packing plants would they even have a record of these people. If this is a crime that they think is a serial killer I could totally see why info would not be released and why LE would be "like nothing to worry about" to keep the Public calm.

ITA.

The cases have many similarities. It's making the hair on the back of my neck stand up as I think of them.

I believe it's possible that the same guy committed both sets of murders.

It's possible he wanted to relive the murders of Lyric and Elizabeth and reenacted their murders with these poor girls.

The resemblance of recovery locations of both sets of murders is incredibly creepy. You would be forgiven for thinking you were analyzing one case, when it was really the other.

Ultra creepy and sinister.

 

[NewMama]

I think that if LE thought the girls and perp(s) had been in the cemetery, they would have been looking for other people who were in the cemetery that day to question them. As far as I know, there has been no mention of that. They have only talked about questioning people who were on the trail that day.

There's a good chance that the cemetery has security cameras. If so, I'm sure LE has reviewed them and that may be why they are not focusing on the cemetery, because they already know that nothing happened there.

We have a family cemetery on our land in TX - it looks approx. 1/2 the size of this cemetery. No cameras. Out in the country in the middle of farmland.

 

[ianthe]

My serial killer brain wouldn't use duct tape because it's easy to get out of but it's very possible that's what he used. I'd hope for rope because it would be much easier to distinguish. Also some people were saying they saw a coil of rope in the photo but I never did get clarification on that.

Even if just the hands were bound, I don't think I'd run. I wouldn't scream either. Not if my friend's life depended on it, as well as mine. I think most people in this situation would handle it in a similar way. Especially when you're just a kid.

 

[Spiritecho]

I doubt they were shot...with such a tight time frame as well as lots of activity that day in that area it would/could/should have been heard.

I would imagine the girls knew that cemetery was there..dontcha think??? they lived there...they went to that area, is appears often

If they were found 1/2 mile upstream...did the searchers the night before not get that far? Was the volunteer who found them by his/her self? or did they work in teams?
Did he/she alert other persons they found foot prints?
Were those footprints photo'd?

When was that man in the grainy photo named a POI? Other than LE ask if anyone knows him to have him come forward in hopes he saw/heard something? **SIGH****
I guess that photo is the only thing to keep going on and on about...

Maybe when they searched the warrant and left with a 'few' boxes...maybe they took DNA from person(s) in the home and are waiting on the results?

Here is something I've wondered
The person(s) did not take them out at the same time..perhaps one of the girls went behind a bush/skipped up ahead/played tag/chase and was grab/silenced/etc and when the other came looking, the person(s) was then able to grab/silence her...perhaps not the right way to get my point across but there's the gist...

Common sense people...over-analyzing....sigh....IMOO

 

[roseofsharon]

Maybe the perp approached them telling them they were trespassing and that he would lead the way out. Just a thought.

 

[steelman]

Exactly. It seems it would have taken a plan and considerable time to walk them through such an area. I don't think it is possible without taking them at gunpoint.

It makes me think this is hardly a crime of opportunity, at least not totally. I feel like the perp had to go there prepared.

Totally..............plus................he knew he was safe on private property.....................the cops can't encroach without probable cause. That normally takes 24 hours to get a warrant.


These two girls were on the wrong side of that barbed wire fence. Searchers couldn't enter.

These girls were found by a private searcher, on private property, the next morning.

 

[tokyorose]

That's the part I'm having trouble figuring out too............he controlled two completely healthy 13 year old girls.....................in their prime physical condition.

No one heard screaming, yelling, nobody heard signs of distress. I want to remind everyone in this forum......................The search for these girls was called off after the first night !! Why?? Because the searchers were not allowed to cross onto private property.............that's why. It had a barbed wire fence around it. It was only the next morning, when the owner of the private property sent someone out to search, that the girls bodies were found


Keep this in mind on your next "missing person" case.

Sorry if I missed this already, but how do you know there is barbed wire around the private property where they were found? Having lived in some rural places in my life, sometimes there isn't any fencing at all where public land ends and private land begins.I probably missed reading that somewhere. I had already guessed that was the reason the search was called off. Makes me think the perp knew that he'd be difficult to detect once off the public trails.

 

[ianthe]

Security cameras at a small cemetery seems so weird to me. Jmo. I hang out in little cemeteries like that and I've never seen cameras. Doesn't mean they're not there, but, I don't see why there would be. We don't seem to have a problem with vandalism in graveyards and neither would Delphi IMO. They're supposed to be quiet places to mourn. Maybe I reject the idea because it's an uncomfortable one.

 

[ianthe]

They've swabbed multiple people from what I've seen and I'm sure they swabbed the owner of the home that was searched. They must have DNA. Maybe it's just procedure though.