IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 - #28

[ab01]

Someone asked about murder statistics showing relationship (if any) between killers and victims — I can’t find the post again, but think it was in the previous thread.


FBI statistics are available online, including “2013 Murder Circumstances by relationship” (NB: *relationship is that of victim to offender)


Total victims: 12,253


Relationship is “unknown” for 5,572 of these (which probably indicates murders that have not been solved)


Of the remaining 6,681 victims:


1,281 — the murderer was a stranger


That leaves 5,400 murders in which there was some known relationship between victim and killer.


The FBI stats provide a breakdown of the various known relationship categories / subcategories as well as circumstances (rape, burglary, gangland killing etc )


Link to FBI page for above: https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded-homicide/expanded_homicide_data_table_10_murder_circumstances_by_relationship_2013.xls

so what I take away from this is apox a 5/1 ratio? For every 1 person that was murdered by a stranger 5 people were murdered by someone they knew? just speculating here and not sure i am reading it right but that's what i see?

 

[Miranda]

Thanks FreeRoad

 

[Burnt Toast]

I have never heard of police putting someone in jail for the person's protection. Think of all the stalking victims and domestic violence victims who are usually told by LE to get a restraining order, but otherwise there's nothing LE can do unless there is physical harm done to the victim. And even then, LE puts the person causing harm in jail, not the victim.

if he needed protection they could have put a officer outside his place to keep him safe...

 

[Hoosier952]

Not trying to be rude but really am curious, how is 40 acres not a lot of land? It seems like a lot of land to me, especially of they were combing around for small signs of them ect. JMO

I think it depends where you're from and what kind of land you've lived on. 40 acres is small to me, but I'm surrounded by woods and fields and lots of acres. I've never lived anywhere with a small or non-existent yard though. To someone who's lived in a city their entire life, an acre would feel pretty big.

Had this idea, hope LE/FBI have the same idea:

DNA test ALL Delphi (including Delphi rural areas) men aged between 20-60, there are maybe max 1500 such men.

http://www.city-data.com/city/Delphi-Indiana.html

And even if they then don't get a 100% match on one of the Delphi men, they would at least probably find some kind of family linked DNA match and then they would have a lead to go on.
(the killer could be a Delphi native, still with family in Delphi but have moved our of the Delphi area, but in Feb 2017 come back visit family ? friends? and commit the murder)

I'm pretty sure familial DNA isn't allowed in IN unless there has been a recent change (like in the last month). That being said, I'm not sure how close of a match it would require to alert investigators. I know they talk about x point matches, and it seems like a certain amount of points is considered a good match. But I have no idea what constitutes a point and if relatives would have matching points. I feel like I'm going to ramble, so maybe someone could clarify if there would be a way to legally sidestep the familial DNA issue or if there are legal ways to sidestep that issue.

Could they take a partial match and use that info to narrow down potential suspects, but not use that partial match sample in court?

I seem to have missed a few things.
Is it true that LE searched the PO's silo in the last week? What would normally be in silo out in that part of Indiana? Do people store ears of corn in those things or what?
When was the PO actually arrested for the drunk driving caper? He's still in jail?
TIA.

BBM-Not sure if they actually searched inside the grain bin. Chances are it would still have corn or beans in it from last fall (most farmers will keep a chunk of their fall harvest to sell when prices typically peak in spring). It would just be the corn kernels rather than whole ears if there is corn in there. As mentioned, it wasn't RL's bin. It might not even be used by the current land owners if they cash rent/lease the property to a farmer. Land use gets a little blurry in farm country. Especially now with land prices outrageously high and more small time farmers leaving farming behind.

I have seen it reported to be a public road. There is no gate. I wish we could trick... errr... talk one of our people that lives around there to going down N 625 W street and see if there are any signs posted.

If it quits snowing, I'll be up there this week or next. If no one has done so before then, I'll drive back there.

Thanks. But what do locals normally keep in a silo of that size? I know that the silos used to be really dangerous when they held grain, because they could build up gasses and then blow up. Other than that, I don't know what goes on inside them.
Would it have been cleaned out and empty at this time of year?

I answered about them likely not being empty this time of year. One of the biggest dangers is becoming engulfed and suffocating under whatever grain is stored in them. There's not a whole lot going on inside of one. That thing sticking up is the sweeper auger that picks up the grain from the floor. There's usually a hole or two for emptying out the bin to the auger outside that moves the grain to an awaiting trailer.

 

[Burnt Toast]

I believe so, it says, "Investigators are anxiously awaiting full DNA test results being compiled by FBI forensic analysts." IMO that must be from something they discovered recently. They've been back to the CS a few times to search for evidence. I sort of think they've found items and had them tested with no luck but most recently maybe they discovered something really useful. Because I don't think "fast tracked" DNA takes too long. So maybe something from their search last Friday.

do you have a link to that finding? I would love to read it. Having DNA would be HUGE!

 

[Wondergirl]

This guy either: threw out his clothing or burned them. His boots or shoes would have been covered with mud. Who has ditched their boots or shoes in the last month? Who has new boots or shoes? Think think think.

WHO wanted to make sure their GF/WIFE was gone away out of town, on February 13th, 2017?

WHO left Delphi on February 13, 2017, and left their BF/HUSBAND/SON at home ALONE?

 

[ab01]

so what I take away from this is apox a 5/1 ratio? For every 1 person that was murdered by a stranger 5 people were murdered by someone they knew? just speculating here and not sure i am reading it right but that's what i see?

Actually thats probably a little misleading bc I would speculate that probably of the 5,572 unsolved that that ratio is probably less....for example probably that rate doesnt follow the same trend as i would speculate a higher rate being commited by a stranger

 

[teeandcee]

I know many hear the word "GO" but I have to wonder if instead what is heard is the ending of another word which was cut short. MOO

I hate to say it since I don't think he lured them in any way, but I hear "it's" down the hill.

 

[Burnt Toast]

Sgt. Riley would neither confirm or deny DNA in the articles from this morning, but the DA, Robert Ives, has been quoted tonight in new articles and appears to be confirming that there's DNA from the crime scene. They're still playing it pretty coy, but the DA has come pretty close to outright saying they believe they have DNA.

Do you have a link to the article with Ives quote?

 

[AFTM]

If clothes were in fact removed from the victims, the phone could have fallen out in the woods at the scene, and parts of or the entirety of the crime may have been recorded along with the accompanying audio. Perhaps the suspect was so focused on the crime in progress that he had no idea the phone was recording him. JMO

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Oh my goodness and you weren't jumped on repeatedly for this thought. I mentioned it before...It does seem plausible doesn't it?




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[liltexans]

Do you have a link to the article with Ives quote?

I linked the new articles from today in the media thread for this case. The link to the media thread is on page 1 of this thread. Or you can just search my posts in this thread. I've linked them here, too.

 

[liltexans]

Here's the Ives quote. Sgt. Riley was quoted in the WTHR article.

Investigators are anxiously awaiting full DNA test results being compiled by FBI forensic analysts.

“I go back before DNA and cell phones,” said Ives who remembered prosecuting criminal cases in Carroll County with less evidence than in this case since 1987, “and I certainly would have said, if experienced investigators, as we have in this case, had the evidence that was available in this case, I would expect them to solve it within a month. That’s without DNA and cell phones which are a big part of what’s going on here.

http://fox59.com/2017/03/14/prosecu...r-received-crucial-tip-due-to-scope-of-probe/

 

[Momma2cam]

Actually thats probably a little misleading bc I would speculate that probably of the 5,572 unsolved that that ratio is probably less....for example probably that rate doesnt follow the same trend as i would speculate a higher rate being commited by a stranger

Not too far off according to this:

"The victim-offender relationship in
child murder varies with the age of the
victim: In most murders of a young
child, a family member killed the child,
while in most murders of an older
child, age 15 to 17, the perpetrator
was an acquaintance to the victim or
was unknown to law enforcement
authorities. About 1 in 5 child murders
were committed by a family member."

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/CVVOATV.PDF

"Among homicides for which the victim/offender relationships
were known, 22% of victims were killed by strangers
 More than half (56%) of victims were acquaintances of the
assailant (table 8).
 Another 22% of victims were killed by a spouse or other family member"
https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/htus8008.pdf


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[apples12]

Just a thought.
If the perp had sought out a frequented area - by joggers, walkers, hikers - with a nearby wooded area to hide the body, he probably visited prior to Feb 13. If the rumor of someone being asked for money by a man dressed like the perp is true, I wonder what day it was.
Some have speculated the perp looks like a drifter or kind of bummish. I lean more towards him having transportation and not committing the crimes very close to his own home. More like he lives on the outskirts of Delphi (in a small secluded home or trailer) or on the fringes of one of the larger towns nearby. Living in the edge and out of the way would be why people are not familiar with him and calling in tips. If he lives alone, nobody notices him. If he lives with a spouse or older person they may be disabled and don't watch television news or have a computer.
Now, other thought is if he has to plan, maybe even plan because he is living on disability checks or limited income, I wonder what day disability checks arrive in the mailbox for that area in Indiana. Possibly he had to plan to make the trip to Delphi after he cashed his check. If the encounter with the man asking for money is him, possibly it was around the same date the prior month?
If he does get a disability check, he has to frequent a bank and probably a liquor store. It would be helpful to make sure bank tellers in surrounding towns have seen his photo.

I
see him as a wolf in sheep's clothing. He is disguised to deceive and hide. look like a dad-type.

 

[ocgrad]

Can someone answer a question for me? This bothers me and I hope it hasn't been covered already.
What was the delay on identifying these two young girls? Couldn't the parents have identified them? What did LE mean when he said the autopsies helped identify them? Were they bludgeoned beyond recognition or burned?
Very strange.
I hope some one has an answer.
Thank you.

Since it was a homicide there had to be an autopsy and identity is the last part of an autopsy but it is an element handled on the autopsy and at that point nothing can be released until it is done. Identity is usually done by witness confirmation, by a family friend or pastor who knows the girl, not so much by next of kin like you see on TV because it is too traumatic. So I don't think we can read anything into the statement that they were identified by the autopsy. I think it means they were officially identified on the autopsy.

 

[MotherOcean]

Are you sure of that? Again, I really don't think I would be able to identify the girl in the high resolution bridge photo as Abby.

I have been thinking about that from the first time that I saw the photo of Abbie! I would not have been able to identify her as the same girl in any of the other photos that I have seen of her. It's not only that she is possibly older and matured... she just doesn't look like the same child! This has really bothered me because I realize that BG may look very different than his photos.

 

[Jillrp]

Would anyone be able/willing to gather all or most of the variations of BG's photo? I want to print a bunch to hand out and hang this weekend on a road trip. Maybe others would also benefit from having a few of them handy. It would also be smart for everyone to possibly have the photo in your phone somewhere to reference in the case you may be that person. Also, IMO the reward $ could be a huge incentive to a large population of people who may not even be familiar with this case. Thank you in advance. God Bless and goodnight.


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[AFTM]

I think the investigation has stalled...There has been nothing new for a month from the authorities. On here there is just rumors and speculation along with a few that want to jump on everyone else for their thoughts because they don't coincide with theirs.

Let's face it nobody knows really what the truth is...Police give misinformation at times to catch a murderer...I for one know for a fact that you cannot believe the media...I know what they reported when my sister was murdered to sell their papers.

I am going to light a candle and pray for these two children. I am actually starting to feel ashamed of participating in this on here...


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[ab01]

Not too far off according to this:

"The victim-offender relationship in
child murder varies with the age of the
victim: In most murders of a young
child, a family member killed the child,
while in most murders of an older
child, age 15 to 17, the perpetrator
was an acquaintance to the victim or
was unknown to law enforcement
authorities. About 1 in 5 child murders
were committed by a family member."

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/CVVOATV.PDF

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Thx wasn't sure I was interpreting it correctly:crosseyed:

 

[ab01]

I have been thinking about that from the first time that I saw the photo of Abbie! I would not have been able to identify her as the same girl in any of the other photos that I have seen of her. It's not only that she is possibly older and matured... she just doesn't look like the same child! This has really bothered me because I realize that BG may look very different than his photos.

I am feeling the same....:goodpost: