IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 - #35

[apophenic]

IMO it would be within the realm of possibility for the following scenario. This is only a theory...no accusations are being made. I'm curious to hear what you all think about the plausibility of this versus it being way far-fetched.

Individual has a chronic condition of abusing alcohol over at least ten years (with any physical/psychological deterioration this could cause) develops deep-seated resentments about his life and the way it turned out. Narcissistic needs for validation and appreciation are not being met, anger festers. Outwardly he presents as fairly unremarkable, inwardly, however he is seething, fantasizing about getting even, showing "them", etc. He nurtures an idea about killing somebody out in the woods, thinks about it, fantasizes about it. He starts to put together a plan. With a gun, get control of victim(s). Use duct tape and restraints...if two victims, get one to first restrain and gag the other. You use gloves. Get them "down the hill" as fast as possible, into a secluded structure (house, garage, shed, silo, barn) until nighttime.Here, you sadistically enjoy the fear, terror, helplessness, etc. of these two happy humans who are barely starting their lives, unlike yourself. In the wee hours of the morning, say 3 am, walks the restrained victim(s) back through your own private property...then do whatever you want to do. Clean up the scene and wait it out. You have no history of reported violence except for that one restraining order in 2013, but that doesn't prove anything.

I guess my beef with the alcoholic discussion is that I don't think RL is more likely responsible for the murders because he may have a drinking problem. I don't think that's why LE is there either. We could debate all day as to whether he is an alcoholic or someone with temper problems all day just based on assumptions from the little info we have, but thats not really going to tell us the motive or why LE seems to be so interested in RL.

The girls were found on RL's property, RL has violated his probation related to drinking and driving. This is what we know about RL. We do not know if he has rage problems, or if he is an alcoholic.

I don't think LE is searching RL's property because he violated his probation. JMO.

Indeed.

But lets say he lied about an alibi...because to tell the truth would incriminate him as regards his dui convictions...and he gets caught in that lie...even if LE don't think he's a real suspect wouldn't they be duty bound to search his land...where 2 murdered children were found after all? That fact coupled with the lie necessitates a police response. He lawyers up. Lawyer tells him to stay silent. He becomes uncooperative anyway as he's pissed at the police...thereby muddying the water further...

And here we are.

 

[St. Anthony2017]

Except like, no one ever wants to buy a house /land where a murder occurred. Look at Jon Benets house, or the house where Cassie Jo Stoddart was killed.

Good point

 

[jillycat]

Why not?

I cannot imagine a scenario of someone coming home, finding two children murdered in his home, and reasoning that moving their bodies to another location on his own property - then risking waiting until the next day to go buy cleaning supplies to clean up after their killer - would be a solution of any kind.

 

[FriscoKid]

My sense of RL, after admittedly limited exposure to interviews and court docs posted here is that he's just an old guy who lives on the family farm who drinks and finds himself in the middle of a nationally publicized mess. Short of having a gun with him, he doesn't seem capable of controlling two healthy teenaged girls who could bolt at any time. Just a hapless, slow-moving dolt who is not a strong communicator and likely spends most of his time alone on his farm. He doesn't seem intelligent enough to cook up all of these scenarios folks are thrusting upon him. Just a guy. MOO


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[BunnyHop]

I am an Indiana native and me and my buddies at work have been analyzing this for days now. We are pretty familiar with the "type of guy" who wears the attire seen in the BG photos and with the "type of guy" who dresses/acts like RL....since this is my first post, I'm going to make sure this posts before I continue...don't want to waste a ton of time typing if my posts cannot be seen.

I live in NYC north suburb, and I see guys like this every single day.
I go down to my "quickie mart" for gas and whatever. In the AM, they are there getting coffee. At 4:00 PM they are there at the "beer joint".
That's when they get off. They are there, pick up trucks and all.

They wear baggie jeans, hoodies, carhartts, you name it- they wear it. Also camo and caps.

They are hard working blue collar guys. Electricians, landscapers, everything.
I never questioned it before, and I will not question it now. Many are just "outdoor" types.

Hell, I wear fleece all winter.

 

[TeaTime]

Except like, no one ever wants to buy a house /land where a murder occurred. Look at Jon Benets house, or the house where Cassie Jo Stoddart was killed.

Exactly, then it is deeply discounted to move it off the market.

 

[Meandmycoffee]

Yes but he coaxed her to go he is a teacher and they think he was doing it online...
Look at him in video it is the closest thing to BG we have seen yet...

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Right, and I'm certain the police have gone on record as saying he "groomed her" and have further stated they believe she is "in danger"

edit: unrecognizable emoji

 

[Momma2cam]

I put this in a previous thread but since it is closed I am reposting it

I hoping by linking this I can clear up the question of why RL's License would still be suspended. If you go back to the "My case link"

http://public.courts.in.gov/mycase/#/vw/Search

and enter case #08D01-1312-FD-000107 you will see he was first arrested on 11/28/2013 and at his trial on 9/15/2014. His license is suspended for 1 year but in between while waiting to be sentenced. He was pulled over again on 2/21/2014 (ref case 08D01-1402-FD-000016). At the sentencing for that case on 10/8/2014 he is given another 2 years license suspension to run consecutively with the previous suspension. Since he already served 30 days of that suspension the current suspension would not end until 9/15/2017...
IMO ...Does this make sense
:lookingitup:

Bumping this as I've seen a couple people ask again if RL's license was still suspended. According to this, yes, until 9/15/2017.

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[tokyorose]

I would suppose the police would've interviewed him when the initial call came in and they'd be able to smell alcohol if he'd been drinking on the 13th. It may or may not be relevant to what happened that day but no one here can say with certainty it was or wasn't a factor.

I don't think they would have interviewed him on the 13th. LE was still under the impression then that the girls weren't in danger then, they weren't found on his property until noon on the 14th. He was only asked for his permission to search his property on the evening of the 13th.

 

[FriscoKid]

Some of my thoughts

This is a small town and the minute the girls were found the property's owners name and complete history were known to LE I would assume. I would think a background check of the property and its owners was conducted quite quickly. They would have known he is on probation and what for (if they didn't know him personally since it's a small town). So why wasn't he arrested within a day or two for violating his terms of condition.? Why 3 weeks?

Small towns in my opinion have 6 degrees of separation, and I firmly believe that RL's land or himself is tied to the other search warrants. Something is connecting them. Why or who I do not know but this is my gut feeling.

4 weeks later LE has a sealed search warrant for RL property and home looking for something to either clear or focus on RL. To me that speaks volumes. LE getting some type of information that makes them dig deeper into RL/property. 4 weeks is a long time to follow up on just a "tip" something else is a factor, something more damning, Something has changed.

While LE has stated they have served several other warrants in connection to the girls only two (RL and Bicycle Bridge rd) have been more prominent then the others, Why? Both property's had evidence/stuff removed if I remember correctly.

While LE searched RL's property they removed and red taped a white truck(don't know who it belongs to) which was on his property. Again this speaks volumes. They are not going to impound a vehicle if someone has a suspended licenses/on probation/a drunk ect, they would only do that if he was caught driving it and found to be on probation . which we know was not the case since he was in jail when the vehicle was removed. Why was the white truck removed? Do vehicles get impounded when not being driven for a violation or probation after the fact?

I do not know if my line of thinking is correct or wrong but this is how I have looked at it and what I think. I do not believe RL is the person in the photo shown by LE to be a suspect. But that doesn't mean RL is not connected either purposefully or unknowingly.









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RL has apparently lived there in this small town for 53 years. I would certainly think folks, especially the police were at least aware of him - especially with the DUI run-ins. He was not an unknown.


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[Nanjack00]

I don't know if this was ever shared.

Emily Longnecker WTHR
17 March at 21:37 ·
I'm back in Delphi tonight, where investigators spent the day searching the property of Ron Logan. He's the man on whose property, search crews found the bodies of Libby German and Abby Williams in a secluded and wooded area, 100 yards from Logan's home. Police say they've come back here after receiving information that has led them to believe some of the details Logan originally gave them, just don't add up. Still police caution people from jumping to any conclusions. They've searched other properties in this case too. Logan is in jail right now on an unrelated probation violation. I talked with his neighbor Marvin tonight who told me, "I think they're doing him more of a favor than they are harm because if they go back through and they can't find nothing, you have no right to accuse him of anything. I mean that was his property that could have been anybody's property."

 

[BunnyHop]

I'm uncertain I've heard anyone was nearby when the police think the murders happened. I do know other people were there on that day, according to media. Wouldn't a gunshot be heard? Of course we don't know about witness statements or COD, either.

I wanted to mention that too. AFAIK, no gunshots were heard. Knife? :moo:

 

[AFTM]

I am tired of hearing about RL I think it is wasted time. Sorry but it is going nowhere. Unless his butt drank some kind of moonshine that gave him supernatural strength and endurance I am going to rule him out myself...Sorry

If any of you sleuths find out what that was... give me a few swigs so I can catch up on my laundry....


Lol

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[gitana1]

Can someone please tell me what alcohol has to do with this crime?

It has to do with people stating that RL is much to sweet and honorable a man to be implicated in such a crime. The conversation went from there. Some pointed out that he has a rap sheet that, while it has nothing to do with sexual assault or murder, does show that the man has some serious issues. Others pointed out that anger and alcohol often go hand in hand. I agree with them and also pointed out that a rap sheet like his shows his serious issues correlate with a disdain for the the rights of others.

None of it implicates this man in any way in these murders. But it can point to some serious dysfunction which may be related to something having to do with this crime. Or not.

 

[Spellbound]

Why even attempt to take two girls at one time? How does one have total control over two people? Even with a gun, there must have been some time that he was preoccupied with one "hostage" (for lack of a better word) that may leave time for the second to run, scream, attack him. Did he tie or handcuff them together? Were their mouths covered to stifle screams? For some unknown reason, I don't feel this was a sexually motivated crime.

But another scenario I have contemplated is that the girls encountered someone they knew, even if not too well. Perhaps they asked to use a bathroom, or wandered over to look at the horses. Maybe they were offered hot chocolate or something along that line. Once the suspect had them inside (home, barn, shed?) he became stern and threatening, and then ...... ?

I don't believe we have heard any confirmation of dragging bodies to the spot where they were found. However, they could have been moved by ATV, horse, trailer, etc.

No matter how this all came about, I cannot for the life of me come up with a motive for killing tow young teens.

 

[Inthedetails]

I am tired of hearing about RL I think it is wasted time. Sorry but it is going nowhere. Unless his butt drank some kind of moonshine that gave him supernatural strength and endurance I am going to rule him out myself...Sorry




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I hear ya. I don't think he's BG, but I do have questions about whether someone he knew was involved. Looking at it from that angle is worth it, imo....but not really leading me anywhere.

Frustrating to be sure.

jmo

 

[BunnyHop]

ahhh.... I would like to believe I would call the police and I would not touch anything. I absolutely would not ingrain myself in a murder by moving bodies someone else had killed. Murder charges are much more severe than added probation for a drinking violation. (if I was really worried about having been out drinking and getting in trouble for reporting murders, I might, but only a slight might, call my lawyer and tell him what is going on, and ask what I should do.)

If police presence was there, I would do nothing other than go outside and talk with neighbors. I would be very upset.
Has anything ever happened in your neighborhood? What would you do?

 

[kstephens98]

No. I don't know RL personally and don't believe I'm acting as if I do. But I feel I can come to certain judgments about people in general who have rap sheets like he does. And that judgment is that such a person has a problem that he or she has failed to rectify, despite the danger it causes to others.

My belief about the connection between arrests for DUIs and having a drug or alcohol problem is based on experience. Years of it. A record of a DUI or other drug or alcohol-related offense is evidence to a court that the person has a drug or alcohol problem and is a danger to a child (I do family law). When I screen my clients in custody cases I always start by asking:

1. Do either you or your ex have a criminal history?
2. Do either your your ex have a mental health diagnosis?
3. Have you or your ex ever had a domestic violence or civil harassment restraining order?
4. Do either you or your ex have any history of drug or alcohol treatment?

These are major factors that are relevant in custody cases.

My belief about the connection between alcohol abuse and anger issues and/or mental health problems is, however, not just based of years of experience analyzing these cases (which includes reviewing countless psych evaluations. It's also based on expert opinions - not my own:

https://books.google.com/books?hl=e...=onepage&q=homicidal behavior alcohol&f=false

http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=search.displayRecord&uid=1991-98239-000

http://www.jsad.com/doi/abs/10.15288/jsa.1985.46.279

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/004723529090002S

http://www.choosehelp.com/topics/an...derstand-alcohol-related-anger-and-aggression

And then there is also a correlation between sociopaths and alcohol/substance abuse:

https://news.vanderbilt.edu/2010/03...ek-rewards-no-matter-the-consequences-109865/

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18653-brain-chemical-is-reward-for-psychopathic-traits/

https://www.elementsbehavioralhealt...use-and-antisocial-personality-disorder-aspd/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2266219

Is RL an alcohol abusing, psychopathic killer? I have no idea. I don't have information showing that. But his rap sheet certainly shows that he has or had a major problem with alcohol that took precedence over the rights and safety of others. And the correlation between alcohol abuse and aggression, as well as personality disorders and alcohol abuse, show, IMO, that it is not insane to wonder.

Yep, its official. You are my Webslueths Hero!!!

 

[gitana1]

I am tired of hearing about RL I think it is wasted time. Sorry but it is going nowhere. Unless his butt drank some kind of moonshine that gave him supernatural strength and endurance I am going to rule him out myself...Sorry


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What if the killer controlled the victims with a gun? I don't think superhuman strength is needed for that. Especially when the victims are two scared, teenage girls.

I get why people are ruling him out. I understand many feel he doesn't look at all like BG or sound like him. And he hasn't even been named a suspect. But the facts of this case and the actions of LE show he is being investigated, and/or his property or someone who has access to that. So it clearly is not far fetched or illogical to consider a connection. Which, by the way, is all I think anyone has done. From what I've read, many are convinced there is no way this man could be involved and some even seem angry that others are considering it. However, no one on the other side of that coin is insisting he is involved. Just remaining open based on the few facts we have. I am in the latter camp. I don't have enough info to cast a judgment either way.

Finally, the scroll and roll option is always there.

 

[Anadrol]

My theory is, RL holds the key to finding BG. They are not the same guy, but RL is either knowingly or unknowingly helping conceal BG's identity. LE will search the property, find evidence to prove to RL that they know what he knows, and he'll help them track down the real perp.

That being said....even though I do NOT buy into the theory that RL did it, here would be the clues supporting that theory:

1. There are several parts of the pictures that link RL and BG as the same guy. The jeans, the gait, the tendency to pocket his left hand, the gut, the camo hat, the green strap on RL's chest, the layering, the body size, ALL of that makes me think these are the same guy. The one piece that doesn't fit is the age. I cannot make BG out to look over the age of 60 in my mind.

2. RL, being 77 and a known drinker might be crazy enough to make some of the odd mistakes we have seen to this point. Only a drunk, senile old loon would kill 2 people and then wear the same hat and gun holster the next day in a news interview. Only an old guy losing his grip on reality would not notice that his victim was filming him and then not take her phone when he left the scene. He would have to be so out of touch with technology that he didn't recognize the phone as being a video recording device and then so out of touch (and so "new" at murder) that he didn't bother to search them and destroy the cell phone.

3. I highly doubt this old 77 year old man was conveniently shopping for tropical fish at the perfect time of the murders. Does he have a badass fish tank? Is he a fish enthusiast? Prove it. I don't know any old farmer type dudes like this to have a dual interest in extreme drinking and tending aquariums.

4. You can tell this old dude has seen some hard work in his day. His hands are rough and his sleeves are rolled up in some pics. His boots are old and muddy. You know how they always say last thing to go on an old boxer is his power? That's very true. There are a lot of old Indiana farm boys that look like fat old men who can break you with their bare hands. Don't think this guy couldn't pull off this crime. 80 year old men kill deer in the woods, drag them a mile, hang them, and clean them with no help.

5. Police just took his damn truck. That seems odd to me. He's already got 3 DUI's, but they are just now taking his wheels? They expect to find something.

6. This might be the only human being on the planet who could actually keep watch on that bridge and strike a vulnerable victim when no one else was around. Anyone else would need to arrange this meeting with the victim ahead of time. He's the one guy who could stalk that spot regularly because he lives there.

Again, this is not my preferred theory. I'm just giving you this side of the coin