IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #46

[otto]

That is the approximate distance if you walked the path starting from the bridge that goes over the Hoosier Heartland Highway (25). I think that is called the Freedom Bridge - but correct me if I don't have that bridge named right. So, I think even LE used a similar distance of 8/10s of a mile early on, but again that distance can only be from the start of the official trail and then then distance to the girls off the trail.

Really, MSM got their map wrong. LE gave a distance from a different bridge not the High Bridge. The helicopter flying over the scene never went that far East. The crime scene tape where the girls were found can be seen in that helicopter video (not easily, but it is there). Worse, even after the media were allowed to go down and shoot video and take photos near the crime scene the media outfit that posted that map didn't bother fixing the location because at that point they would have known for sure exactly where it was.

For what it is worth I believe that the crime scene is a little further west than the maps we have depicting it but not all that much further.

This topographic map suggests that this area, directly South of the cemetery, would be an isolated place, and it would be easy for the suspect the walk to a vehicle parked at the cemetery. In fact, footage of so many police vehicles at the cemetery suggests that the location is significant.

 

[relay]

Ouch so it definitely looks sexually motivated if girls had no clothing , I wonder if the cloths were in the creek to get rid of any DNA?

LE has released nothing regarding what clothes/shoes either Libby or Abby had on or did not have on. Anything else would seem to be speculation or from a report by a photographer who stated he/she saw clothing in the water on the day the girls's were found. I don't know how reliable that report was, so I didn't file it as fact.

 

[Julpal]

Someone who used to write obits for a newspaper commented earlier. In his/her experience, obits were often rushed to meet a deadline and often were not precise about dates.

yes and for this reason I did not take it too seriously at first… But now it seems there have been memorials made with those dates on them. Jmo

 

[otto]

The map is off a little.

I made this crude drawing on top of a Google map early on in this case, to illustrate what a lot of us believe was the path taken from the SE end of the bridge, to where the girls were found. I have other, better images which resemble what others have posted about distances and whatnot, too.

The bridge is 850+ feet long. Most of the bridge is over land.

Edit: Where they ended up could be a little west of the "end point" of my crude drawing.

Thank you!

 

[Falling Down]

Thank you!

You're welcome. Your image is more accurate in a way, due to the lack of vegetation.

 

[Deleted member 155000]

Another point I will put badly. Small town girl, who grew up with creeks and small rivers. They were deep in spots and shallow in others. As teens, we crossed them on trails without bridges all the time if it was the shortest way to get where we wanted to go. Didn't think about "slippery rocks" or "this could be dangerous ". I can totally see the girls trying to get across the creek to get away, or being ordered across it. To me, moo, not a stretch.


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Agreed. In fact, this is why I am here to discuss this case. I usually only choose 2 or so cases to follow at a time, which I feel a personal connection to. This one is in the Midwest, but what drew me in is the two girls on the trails and creek. My friend and I spent hours out in fields, woods, and creeks in rural Michigan. Looking back, I am sure we trespassed frequently without even thinking about it, although we were always respectful of property and never vandalized or left trash. We would catch fish and other things in buckets and sometimes were in the water up to our knees and would come home covered in mud. It never once occurred to me at that age that a predator could have targeted us or taken advantage of us. For this reason, I want to fight for Libby and Abby whose innocence was exploited and whose adventures were cut short.

There are more who fight for good in this world than bad...and I believe justice will prevail in this case as well.


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[Yvettea]

So many people seem sold on the idea that they crossed the creek that day; just would've been too risky to go back north. But crossing the creek you're still visible for quite a while and you're going to get wet. The guy in the video doesn't seem dressed to cross the creek. he would have been feeling the effects quickly on a 42° day. He would have been uncomfortable and at risk of hypothermia. So what is the thinking here? Murder then leaves immediately. If so why cross the creek?

 

[otto]

Thanks for everyone's patience and help while I try to visualize what happened. How am I doing?

 

[asyousay]

LE has released nothing regarding what clothes/shoes either Libby or Abby had on or did not have on. Anything else would seem to be speculation or from a report by a photographer who stated he/she saw clothing in the water on the day the girls's were found. I don't know how reliable that report was, so I didn't file it as fact.

Fair enough

But LE don't release a lot of stuff to protect the case but it doesn't make it any less true.


If a reporter who was at the crime scene said he saw clothes in the creek I have no reason to think they are lying.

 

[Shiressleuth]

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/29458...eving-grandfather-pays-heartbreaking-tribute/

That article says 1/4 mile from the bridge so it varies but they seem to have a more accurate picture that aligns with Nin's.

When distance is provided from CS to bridge, what end of the bridge are they measuring from? The bridge itself is quite long- about 1/6 mile isn't it so that would make a difference?

 

[Eileen730]

So many people seem sold on the idea that they crossed the creek that day; just would've been too risky to go back north. But crossing the creek you're still visible for quite a while and you're going to get wet. The guy in the video doesn't seem dressed to cross the creek. he would have been feeling the effects quickly on a 42° day. He would have been uncomfortable and at risk of hypothermia. So what is the thinking here? Murder then leaves immediately. If so why cross the creek?

I don't think they crossed the creek.
I think they were on the north end and he led them along the creek to where they were murrdered.

 

[Jethro4WS]

If there were LE cars parked there while it was still just a search then evidence surely could have been compromised.

Or perhaps I have seen too many shows where the crime is solved by a single tire track or gum wrapper?

There was at least one vehicle that was parked in the cemetery that was not an LE vehicle and was retrieved by the owner later. You would have to see the scanner thread post 303.

 

[Shiressleuth]

Fair enough

But LE don't release a lot of stuff to protect the case but it doesn't make it any less true.


If a reporter who was at the crime scene said he saw clothes in the creek I have no reason to think they are lying.

If it is in MSM, we can take it as fact and give as much or as little weight to it as we wish. They do make mistakes though, as we know.

 

[otto]

So many people seem sold on the idea that they crossed the creek that day; just would've been too risky to go back north. But crossing the creek you're still visible for quite a while and you're going to get wet. The guy in the video doesn't seem dressed to cross the creek. he would have been feeling the effects quickly on a 42° day. He would have been uncomfortable and at risk of hypothermia. So what is the thinking here? Murder then leaves immediately. If so why cross the creek?

In the helicopter footage where searchers are in the river, at some places they are only ankle deep. If the suspect is wearing boots and if he knew where to cross the river, he did not get wet feet.

 

[Bemused]

LE has released nothing regarding what clothes/shoes either Libby or Abby had on or did not have on. Anything else would seem to be speculation or from a report by a photographer who stated he/she saw clothing in the water on the day the girls's were found. I don't know how reliable that report was, so I didn't file it as fact.

Even if there were clothes in the creek, remember the shoes found that were not related? It could've been anyone's discarded or lost clothing, IMO.

 

[Alexsea]

Agreed. In fact, this is why I am here to discuss this case. I usually only choose 2 or so cases to follow at a time, which I feel a personal connection to. This one is in the Midwest, but what drew me in is the two girls on the trails and creek. My friend and I spent hours out in fields, woods, and creeks in rural Michigan. Looking back, I am sure we trespassed frequently without even thinking about it, although we were always respectful of property and never vandalized or left trash. We would catch fish and other things in buckets and sometimes were in the water up to our knees and would come home covered in mud. It never once occurred to me at that age that a predator could have targeted us or taken advantage of us. For this reason, I want to fight for Libby and Abby whose innocence was exploited and whose adventures were cut short.

There are more who fight for good in this world than bad...and I believe justice will prevail in this case as well.


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Absolutely and precisely this. To me, the creek is not a boundary or barrier. It's just normal geography for the area, and I doubt premeditated thoughts of private property considerations play a part in the planning or execution of this crime, if it turns out to be planned. O/T BessDrew I was raised in WA state, but all my cousins grew up in MI. Spent some summers out there with you! All the usual opinion alphabets...

 

[Jethro4WS]

Is there any footage from a news helicopter during 2/13 when the girls are reported missing and up until the bodies were discovered on 2/14 approx 12:15 PM?

ETA I believe the time the police were notified they were missing was approx 5:30 PM on 2/13. Or maybe that's the time LE arrived at the bridge to begin searching, I don't know for sure.

The only footage that I know of from the night of the search comes from WLFI. The cameraperson was out in the woods with fire fighters and friends/family/neighbor volunteers at different times.

 

[skibaboo]

Thanks for everyone's patience and help while I try to visualize what happened. How am I doing?

View attachment 114549

This is the Case Map if it helps Otto

links to tweets with photos and grayhuze's videos are included

 

[asyousay]

I don't think they crossed the creek.
I think they were on the north end and he led them along the creek to where they were murrdered.

But you can match up where he is in the photo and it's the south side , even when I watch the videos from Julie Melvin who I think is related to one of the family's shows where Libby was when she took the photo.

 

[deedee21]

I wonder if LE checked out which tombstones had fresh flowers. Maybe the perp visited the cemetary on the day the girls were killed.