IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #46

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otto said:
The suspect had two options to get the girls to a location where he would assault (presumably) and murder them. He could force them to walk to that location, or he could injure one or both during the abduction. Injuring one or both would make it much more difficult to get the girls to the murder location. It makes more sense to me that he walked them to where they were murdered. That would also ensure maximum cooperation because up until the time that one was injured, they could both believe that they would live through what was happening to them.

I don't think he had any idea whose property he was on - he might have assumed that the land was connected to the cemetery. I also think that the girls had been murdered by the time searches began at 5:30, so it was before sunset. Abducted children are usually murdered within two hours of abduction. If the abduction was at approximately 2:10-2:20, he had three hours before the search started.

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3 hours? I'm not sure about that -- looks more like 1 to 1 1/2 hours based on below and that's w 2 victims, not 1.
JMO

A. Snap chat @ 2pm.
B. Another 3 people walking in the vicinity @ 2:30 - 3:30 after Snap chat posted (source below).
C. Folks are there it sounds like around 5:00pm. (I had actually read somewhere they were to be picked up around 3:30 but I can't verify this or find it again. Everything says 5:30 is when they were determined missing and I'm assuming they looked themselves before calling police at 5:30 -- if that is the time police were notified.)

That means like one hour or a hour 1/2 where sound wouldn't travel or leaves be crunching from SA or struggle. I just don't see an onsite murder or SA not being heard in that short of a time window given the other people in area and parents being there and looking before they call authorities to report them missing & again w 2 victims, not just one which seems to make timing even more complicated because everything takes twice as long.

http://heavy.com/news/2017/02/liber...ssing-snapchat-facebook-photos-family-bridge/
 
otto said:
The bodies were on private property, and I have been unable to find any accurate information about where they were found. I have read 0.5 to 0.75 miles from the bridge, but that is not possible because it is 0.5 miles from the bridge to the far East end of the private property.

Where would you place the body location?

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I believe it has been well established that the crime scene was directly across the creek from the tree that juts out over it. Aside from that, I believe we were told that the victims were something like 50 feet from the creek.

JMHO
 
otto said:
How is that possible? Are you thinking that the girls were murdered immediately after they were abducted? If that's the case, why not murder them on the bridge?
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my guess is the killer cared about his safety, and would not have wanted a struggle on the bridge where they could have fallen off. The bridge was also in sight to the public. Yes, i think they were killed within minutes of being lead to the CS. I don't believe there was any SA.
 
otto said:
There are also many stranger-abductions/murders where the suspect does not live near the abduction/murder location, and is long gone before anyone realizes that the victim is missing.
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Of course. What is this comment in response to?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Han said:
I've accepted the placement we've previously been shown. Is there new information that changes the location from what is shown on previous maps?
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There is a 200 feet difference. Perhaps the person who did the first map assumed that the private property started on the East side of the cemetery, perhaps the location is 200 feet East. I don't know. I placed the body location where the terrain would offer seclusion and privacy and direct access to a vehicle parked at the cemetery. I can move it easily enough, but 200 feet right or left doesn't make too much difference.
 
NightOwl77 said:
That means like one hour or a hour 1/2 where sound wouldn't travel or leaves be crunching from SA or struggle. I just don't see an onsite murder or SA not being heard in that short of a time window given the other people in area and parents being there and looking before they call authorities to report them missing & again w 2 victims, not just one which seems to make timing even more complicated because everything takes twice as long.
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It seems to me a double murder could easily be accomplished in that time frame. How long does it really take to shoot, stab, or strangle someone?
 
layer said:
Took the words right out of my mouth.
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It wasn't a robbery. What is the reason that a stranger would abduct two young girls, take them to a secluded location, and murder them?
 
Bus_face said:
Is there anyone that favors a theory that BG was already on the far end of the bridge, passed by the girls then turned around quickly once he could see there was no one approaching as far as he could see? Then accuses them of trespassing and says I'm going to take you off the property 'get down the hill' and into my car that's parked below on the driveway.
Moving the girls very far would require their (forced) cooperation. it's either that or things happened really really quickly and required getting across the creek which I don't find that plausible.
What would be great is to have someone that has been questioned come forward and relate what the exactly the LE were asking. Say they were asking to see the inside of ppl's houses or something specific, would be a tell that the girls were moved likely twice.
All IMOO thank you for your thoughtful posts
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Good points. I think this is very plausible as well. (He passed them from end and then turned around and that is what keyed Libby to film in the first place.) That's one of my working theories too and a few other folks here as well.
One of the angles to really contemplate is why did she start filming. What keyed her off?

His speed of approach?
They knew someone was coming to see them?
Or he passed approaching from end and then did a U-ey?

If he came from other end it seems more likely he knew they were going to be there.

I'm just really thinking that they weren't kept on site and that they were brought back after time with them somewhere else, but either way ...off site or on. This was incredibly risky. Either this person was really not thinking at all and it was random or had a locked tight plan for no discovery at all. I keep saying so much could have gone wrong here. That's why I'm going w car and locked tight. There are so many ways he could have been discovered if he marched them right across the stream without injury (shot or stabbed) beforehand.

And the thing I keep coming back to is the pristine Crime Site w/out lots of blood. How could that be? I'm not thinking strangling here. That takes a lot of struggling in those leaves w SA too, which would be a big giveaway w noise while being pretty cold w wet victims from stream. That's all very messy as crime and crime scene.
 
NightOwl77 said:
Good points. I think this is very plausible as well. (He passed them from end and then turned around and that is what keyed Libby to film in the first place.) That's one of my working theories too and a few other folks here as well.
One of the angles to really contemplate is why did she start filming. What keyed her off?

His speed of approach?
They knew someone was coming to see them?
Or he passed approaching from end and then did a U-ey?

If he came from other end it seems more likely he knew they were going to be there.

I'm just really thinking that they weren't kept on site and that they were brought back after time with them somewhere else, but either way ...off site or on. This was incredibly risky. Either this person was really not thinking at all and it was random or had a locked tight plan for no discovery at all. I keep saying so much could have gone wrong here. That's why I'm going w car and locked tight. There are so many ways he could have been discovered if he marched them right across the stream without injury (shot or stabbed) beforehand.

And the thing I keep coming back to is the pristine Crime Site w/out lots of blood. How could that be? I'm not thinking strangling here. That takes a lot of struggling in those leaves w SA too, which would be a big giveaway w noise while being pretty cold w wet victims from stream. That's all very messy as crime and crime scene.
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Crunching leaves at the body location wouldn't be heard by anyone who is not standing nearby.
 
cluciano63 said:
I don't think that murdering, and possibly assaulting, the girls took much more than an hour. It may have been less. If he was able to get them to a location that provided cover (maybe with a weapon) the crimes may have all been over within thirty minutes and he is on his way.
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i agree, and maybe much less.
 
just a random thought..could it be possible that the incarceration and troubles that are facing RL could in part be an effort by LE to put extra pressure on another POI if you see what i mean..
 
If it was not sexual assault why else would a grown man kidnap and kill 2 young girls ?

As horrible as it is to even think about surely that's exactly why he did this crime - he was a sexual deviant imo
 
Han said:
I've accepted the placement we've previously been shown. Is there new information that changes the location from what is shown on previous maps?
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No. And we don't know an exact location either. We've got a few descriptions from LE that vary from a quater of a mile to a half a mile, to a mile and we have a few photographs of crime scene tape, and reporters stood next to the area, which give us a general location, we know approx 50 feet from the creek, within that general area marked by crime scene tape but as for getting a totally accurate location, we don't have that information. We are making a good educated guess from what we have.

I think it's as good as we are going to get, south of the cemetery, very very slightly to the east and 50 feet from the creek
 
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