IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #50

[Falling Down]

Hi guys! This is my first time posting here. I just had a thought that I felt might be worth tossing out there. I wonder if LG and AW played "Pokémon Go." I know they were walking around out in the wilderness, and I couldn't help but wonder if they might have been playing the game. Hence, a possible reason LG might have been actively using her phone camera. This could be waaaaaaay out there, but I could see someone using a game like PG to lure kids into isolation. Just a thought...


"Well, once there was always dark. If you ask me, the light’s winning.”

Possibility, as well as geocaching. I don't think we're allowed to discuss either, here.

I geocache from time to time.

 

[Colton]

Could be... does anyone have any other statistics handy for serial killers if there's a common denominator for their jobs other than the obvious truck-driving link, which has been stated by the FBI, is the best job to have if you're a serial killer. I'm just wondering what the second, third, the 4th xcetera job is, and other commonalities that may have emerged a pattern with the current known serial killers today. It would be great if we could put together our own possible profile from what we have available . it's pretty unnerving that many weeks ago the FBI said they were working on having a profile ready soon and we never heard another peep about it. My belief is they've had that done for a while now but chosen not to release it to the public.. possibly because it would make it obvious what the cause of death was and/ or confirm SA , or some other circumstance which they do not want anyone to know if they saw the profile..

On youtube I was watching a interview with 2 ISP. They said LE is not releasing a lot of details because people actually do call and confess to crimes. They can rule these out when the person is unable to give details of the crime. We all want to know more but integrity of the case is important to convict the right person and to follow up on tips.

 

[GangaMa]

The area has a pretty serious meth problem, going back at least 8 years or more. I was surprised by that, somewhat, for a town this size, but there have been cartel busts within 50 or so miles also, so I guess it's a sign of the times and current trends? I still can't subscribe to the idea that drugs were directly involved, though.

At the start of this case, I read somewhere (sorry folks, no link) that drug transactions in and around Delphi were not relegated to dark alleys and the deep woods, but took place right out in the open (car-to-car, person-to-person) in parking lots and on the streets. Not enough LE to cover every single place.
MOO.

 

[Bemused]

So that "SE" is "something else"? What might that be, IYO? (again...assuming the SW were to clear RL thoroughly)

I misunderstood SW as south west. Sorry. I'm about >< close to cracking open a bottle of wine before noon or popping 1/2 dozen Advil. Or maybe both.

 

[Falling Down]

On youtube I was watching a interview with 2 ISP. They said LE is not releasing a lot of details because people actually do call and confess to crimes. They can rule these out when the person is unable to give details of the crime. We all want to know more but integrity of the case is important to convict the right person and to follow up on tips.

BTK called LE from a pay phone about his first victim, although he wasn't caught for many years afterwards..

Weird stuff, but it happens.

 

[AmateurAnalyst73]

No worries. Just interested in different angles IF this turns out not to be RL. His "still being involved" seems to me like they are at least waiting on all the SW evidence to come back before anything gets stated definitively. Even the "I would not label him as a suspect" was followed by "at this time" in Leazenby's last comments to MSM, IIRC. And, since they stated at the time the SW was executed on 3/17 that it would take "4 to 6 weeks" and that the evidence would either "clear him or move him higher as a suspect" So, to me, that's fairly clear that until ALL that evidence is processed, AND they've said as much, he is still on their radar.

I misunderstood SW as south west. Sorry. I'm about >< close to cracking open a bottle of wine before noon or popping 1/2 dozen Advil. Or maybe both.

 

[BoggLed in Ohio]

WOW!!! Impressive Theory!!! Excellent !!! Share this with LE they may habe video of traffic that day!?!

SE.

Six weeks is not a lot of time here. If the investigators had very little evidence or clues and were pleading with the public for help, maybe I'd agree. They've just said they collected a lot of evidence. We know the girls were found less than 24 hours after they were last known to be alive. It's going to take time to interview and reinterview hundreds of people, check alibis and sort into clear or worth a closer look, analyze all the evidence and run down all of the credible tips. They're making progress, IMO, or they'd be urgently asking for help.

Did you follow the caae of James Dean Worley in Delta Ohio last July and August? He killed Sierrah Joughin. They served the mother of all search warrants at his farm house and land and Barn of Horrors. And they immediately found and announced they believe they have a Serial offender. not only because of his previous conviction of abduction of another young woman about two decades ago, but because of all the items they recovered and everyone believes he is a serial killer. you want to know how many charges of murder he has? One. Almost a year later nothing more has become of it which is just unbelievable to me. I believe a thousand percent he has killed many. But anyhow, my point is, no matter what, the results of the RL search warrant reveal, it still may not be the results you are expecting and still doesnt mean squat sometimes. There are so many cases like these that frustrate me so much and I get too emotionally involved in them yet I can't walk away and I keep trying to do my part to maybe help in some little way , bring Justice.

 

[AmateurAnalyst73]

I believe there was some confusion due to one of the ISP officers mistaking the Monon High Bridge for the Freedom Bridge in an early interview. He quickly corrected himself, and from everything I have read, the girls were not on the Freedom Bridge the day in question.

I would only add that according to time stamps, and the time they were dropped off, I don't think being on this bridge would coincide with the timeframe. I know it was discussed in earlier threads.

 

[Razz]

Out of general curiosity, and this is posed mostly toward those who are in the "RL=BG" camp...I am curious what direction you would head if the SW results pointed away from RL? This is obviously hypothetical, as we aren't at the 6 week mark yet, and have no way to know what the SW will or won't reveal. Would you think we would still be looking at a local? SK? Something else?

I think a local. The thought that the perp may have been driving down the road, saw the girls on the Freedom Bridge and turned onto
RT. 300 is a good one!

I don't feel this is an SK but then, I'm not an expert and am not that knowledgeable about it but somewhere along the way, I believe they have talked to this person. I'd go back and put a picture of everyone they've interviewed on a big board perhaps by address and then eliminate or regroup them that way.


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[Aropizt]

Have all the snapchat friends that would have received the original pics at that exact time been interviewed? ..... to find out if any older male figure noticed the pics and made comment on the pics.

Has this been reported as an avenue of investigation?

The geography of the murders makes me feel this is a local resident, as it seems illogical for a stranger to pick such a dangerous area (the bridge) to undertake this heinous crime...... whomever it was, I feel was definately comfortable in the immediate surroundings..

I'm unsure how possible it even is to know who has seen a photo or not though but interesting thought for sure. Best guess I, and several others familiar with Snapchat have had, is that those two photos weren't sent directly to anyone but posted as a Snapchat "story" which anyone following them would see. A notable thing about Snapchat though (which would definitely narrow things down versus a public Instagram account which Libby had, or Twitter or other social media) is that in order for someone to see your Snapchat story they have to both be following you and you following them. It's definitely not something someone stumbles on accidentally as far as I'm aware. Whoever initially shared the Snapchat photos (and at some point there was a screenshot with a name floating around in the very early days of the investigation. I'm assuming absolutely the police talked to that person who as o recall was a female) that person was almost certainly Snapchat friends with Libby.

But here's why I said it's hard to know who saw the photos- if you send a Snapchat directly to someone it disappears after the first or second viewing (you get one replay if you're fast enough basically. So almost certainly they posted those photos as a "story" like I said) but the "story" will stay up for 24hrs and can be replayed more than once. You don't get any kind of alert when someone posts a story though so chances are some folks who were friends with the girls missed it entirely (I always forget to regularly view the stories posted by my friends). It's also notable that since you don't get an alert I'm unsure what the chances are that someone would've seen that post at just the right time and given how quickly the murders would've happened after the photos were posted in unsure it's even related. Also unsure if even with a warrant Snapchat is able to know or show who viewed a story and who didn't though certainly I assume they would know who is on Libby's friend list. But Snapchat in general was created to be more discreet and private (hence the disappearing messages though as the app got popular they allowed people to take screenshots- which they alert you to- like say someone screenshots a photo I sent them, I get an alert saying they did).

What occurred to me though if we are thinking along these lines and assuming, as would make sense, that most of Libby's Snapchat friends are probably other teens... it's possible a parent or someone else had access to their kids phone and could've seen it. Snapchat would've had to have been logged in so again I don't think this was someone stalking them without them being aware unless someone was pretending to be someone they weren't (which would be harder on Snapchat just given the fact that it's all photos and videos primarily, but people steal photos all the time online) but hey there was some kind of rumor the girls were grounded from using their phones during the time of the murder. Don't think that's substantiated but I mention it because what if one of their friends were grounded and their parent had their phone?

And worth saying, in my own age group which is more the age of the girls parents the people I see use Snapchat tend to use it to connect to family the most. Everyone I know who uses it sends more photos to family than anyone and posts family photos (case in point I forgot what they called the "story" feature so went to my app and looked and the two stories from my friends were photos of family members, like a friend's niece on Easter) I find it hard to imagine the girls would've accepted friend requests on Snapchat from random adults (I believe people have to know your username just to send a request and that's not easy to even find.) so I'd assume any adults they knowing connected with would've been family and maybe some family friends? Like I said, I see Snapchat used a ton between families (I receiver more snaps from my brother than anyone else). We do know most murders and such of young people tend to be commuted by people they know. So... just throwing that thought out there.

But I'm curious what kinds of things Snapchat can and can't share with LE in the case of a warrant (or whatever the proper terminology is for such a thing). I'm unsure they would even know who has and hasn't viewed a story.

Anyway, sorry this was kind of a stream of consciousness post but I kept thinking of more factors into this. Frankly I am of the feeling other than the fact that that snap of Abby is the last photo of her alive, I don't honestly think Snapchat had anything to do with the crime. Especially when I realized you don't get sent alerts when someone adds a story. You basically have to be in the app already and remember to even check that screen (it's shown on a separate screen, when you open the app you're given your friends list and any one to one messages you've received, if you swipe right once it pulls up your camera, swipe right again you see stories. As I said I often forget they're even there and that's a newer feature to the app itself.) we know the the photos were uploaded around 2:07. The crime appears to have occurred very shortly after. So... you can see why I'm questioning how they'd be related.




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[Aropizt]

I'm unsure how possible it even is to know who has seen a photo or not though but interesting thought for sure. Best guess I, and several others familiar with Snapchat have had, is that those two photos weren't sent directly to anyone but posted as a Snapchat "story" which anyone following them would see. A notable thing about Snapchat though (which would definitely narrow things down versus a public Instagram account which Libby had, or Twitter or other social media) is that in order for someone to see your Snapchat story they have to both be following you and you following them. It's definitely not something someone stumbles on accidentally as far as I'm aware. Whoever initially shared the Snapchat photos (and at some point there was a screenshot with a name floating around in the very early days of the investigation. I'm assuming absolutely the police talked to that person who as o recall was a female) that person was almost certainly Snapchat friends with Libby.

But here's why I said it's hard to know who saw the photos- if you send a Snapchat directly to someone it disappears after the first or second viewing (you get one replay if you're fast enough basically. So almost certainly they posted those photos as a "story" like I said) but the "story" will stay up for 24hrs and can be replayed more than once. You don't get any kind of alert when someone posts a story though so chances are some folks who were friends with the girls missed it entirely (I always forget to regularly view the stories posted by my friends). It's also notable that since you don't get an alert I'm unsure what the chances are that someone would've seen that post at just the right time and given how quickly the murders would've happened after the photos were posted in unsure it's even related. Also unsure if even with a warrant Snapchat is able to know or show who viewed a story and who didn't though certainly I assume they would know who is on Libby's friend list. But Snapchat in general was created to be more discreet and private (hence the disappearing messages though as the app got popular they allowed people to take screenshots- which they alert you to- like say someone screenshots a photo I sent them, I get an alert saying they did).

What occurred to me though if we are thinking along these lines and assuming, as would make sense, that most of Libby's Snapchat friends are probably other teens... it's possible a parent or someone else had access to their kids phone and could've seen it. Snapchat would've had to have been logged in so again I don't think this was someone stalking them without them being aware unless someone was pretending to be someone they weren't (which would be harder on Snapchat just given the fact that it's all photos and videos primarily, but people steal photos all the time online) but hey there was some kind of rumor the girls were grounded from using their phones during the time of the murder. Don't think that's substantiated but I mention it because what if one of their friends were grounded and their parent had their phone?

And worth saying, in my own age group which is more the age of the girls parents the people I see use Snapchat tend to use it to connect to family the most. Everyone I know who uses it sends more photos to family than anyone and posts family photos (case in point I forgot what they called the "story" feature so went to my app and looked and the two stories from my friends were photos of family members, like a friend's niece on Easter) I find it hard to imagine the girls would've accepted friend requests on Snapchat from random adults (I believe people have to know your username just to send a request and that's not easy to even find.) so I'd assume any adults they knowing connected with would've been family and maybe some family friends? Like I said, I see Snapchat used a ton between families (I receiver more snaps from my brother than anyone else). We do know most murders and such of young people tend to be commuted by people they know. So... just throwing that thought out there.

But I'm curious what kinds of things Snapchat can and can't share with LE in the case of a warrant (or whatever the proper terminology is for such a thing). I'm unsure they would even know who has and hasn't viewed a story.

Anyway, sorry this was kind of a stream of consciousness post but I kept thinking of more factors into this. Frankly I am of the feeling other than the fact that that snap of Abby is the last photo of her alive, I don't honestly think Snapchat had anything to do with the crime. Especially when I realized you don't get sent alerts when someone adds a story. You basically have to be in the app already and remember to even check that screen (it's shown on a separate screen, when you open the app you're given your friends list and any one to one messages you've received, if you swipe right once it pulls up your camera, swipe right again you see stories. As I said I often forget they're even there and that's a newer feature to the app itself.) we know the the photos were uploaded around 2:07. The crime appears to have occurred very shortly after. So... you can see why I'm questioning how they'd be related.




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Sorry to write so much but I had one last thought which I've brought up before-

I remembered one other thing and I'm not sure of this still and would have to go experiment. Its notable there were two images on Snapchat. You can add new photos to your "story" at any time within the 24hrs they're up. What I'm uncertain of is what that does as far as the time stamp. As in, say she uploaded one and then fifteen minutes later or even an hour later adds the second. Would both photos show the original upload time or would both show the new upload time? I have feeling that may be the case. It's weird to me the time stamp is the same on both. Because you can't, as far as I'm aware, add two images at exactly the same time. Like first you add one and then the other. I suppose it's conceivable you could do that within the same minute, especially if the photos were already taken. If she posted them as she took them, however (and doesn't Gray Hughes video state they were taken at different areas of the bridge, am I remembering correctly?) there's almost no chance they'd both have the same timestamp. Does that make sense?

So if we're running still with the idea that the murderer may have seen their snaps, it's worth asking if maybe one photo was actually posted sooner than 2:07, maybe considerably so but the girls were not there all that long either so... I still lean towards thinking Snapchat probably had nothing to do with it and wasn't the thing that told the killer they were there. The real question is who they told before they went to the bridge. Did they post somewhere on social media "Going out to the bridge tomorrow!" Or something? Because if social media is related that makes more sense to me and Libby's accounts were all public (whereas like I said, Snapchat by its very nature doesn't work like that. There is no "public" Snapchat. You intentionally have to follow someone or a brand and have them follow you back to see each other's stuff or even to send messages at all). MOO as well as my experiences with Snapchat. I'm obviously not a teenager though so worth saying I have no idea how teens use social media (didn't have it when I was their age!) but I'm sure they're much more active and adept users if apps like Snapchat than I am.

If this really piques someone's interest I am willing to experiment with the story feature to check the time stamps. Will probably be later today or tomorrow.


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[BoggLed in Ohio]

Sorry for the off topic, but I found a website which shows former workers for the railroad, it may or may not lead to anything of interest. I have not had a chance to look at the names and photos.

http://www.monon.org/worker2.html

Happy Easter to everyone celebrating.

JLSChook, we will be over at 5:00pm J/K Happy Easter.:spring:

Excellent!!!! Thanks for finding that list !! Can i just say that the last day or so everyone has been doing some super sleuthing and behaving well too LOL lets keep it up and the great discussions going!! This is what WS is all about!!!

 

[Deleted member 155000]

On whether police clear suspects/persons of interest:

I was able to talk to a family member in LE (in a neighboring state to Indiana) over the holiday weekend. He said police often use phrases like "person of interest" or not a suspect "at this time" when someone is under investigation/suspicion, but more evidence is needed before there's an airtight case to file charges. He also said the preference for what kind of language is used publicly can vary from one department to another, as different LE supervisors may have different philosophies on how quickly they discuss suspects or what terminology is used. Some may be more or less likely to name or clear suspects in high profile crimes vs. low profile crimes as well.

A simple Google search quickly revealed many cases of crimes where LE did take the step of "clearing" suspects in some cases. I wish LE would take this step with RL if he IS truly clear.

"We thought we had someone identified," Cpl. Michele Pihera said Monday, "but further research cleared him."

http://www.ajc.com/news/local/suspe...tone-church-vandalism/NO8hiHWxxVuuCp9y7w2ZcL/

"Further investigation over the last 24 hours had cleared Green's involvement in the case," said Ridge Spring Police Chief Mike Raffield.

http://wach.com/news/local/one-suspect-cleared-in-ridge-spring-store-shooting-robbery

"It's just as important to clear an innocent man as it is to identify a suspect...Mr.G is an innocent man."

http://www.berkshireeagle.com/stori...ared-in-dalton-attempted-armed-robbery,268282



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[AmateurAnalyst73]

Seems too likely to elicit a scream, IMO. I suppose it's possible, but if you wanted someone to go to a particular place without much trouble, a firearm seems more likely. You could be correct, though.

I think it is highly possible that a stun gun was used on one girl and the other girl was ordered down the hill or I will stun her again. The second girl was not stunned. If only one was stunned that would show that the other girl did not leave her friend. The BG may have only planned on one abduction but opportunity presented itself. JMHO

 

[Bemused]

Did you follow the caae of James Dean Worley in Delta Ohio last July and August? He killed Sierrah Joughin. They served the mother of all search warrants at his farm house and land and Barn of Horrors. And they immediately found and announced they believe they have a Serial offender. not only because of his previous conviction of abduction of another young woman about two decades ago, but because of all the items they recovered and everyone believes he is a serial killer. you want to know how many charges of murder he has? One. Almost a year later nothing more has become of it which is just unbelievable to me. I believe a thousand percent he has killed many. But anyhow, my point is, no matter what, the results of the RL search warrant reveal, it still may not be the results you are expecting and still doesnt mean squat sometimes. There are so many cases like these that frustrate me so much and I get too emotionally involved in them yet I can't walk away and I keep trying to do my part to maybe help in some little way , bring Justice.

No, I've seen her name mentioned here but not familiar so thanks for the recap.

Investigating a homicide is not like it happens on TV. It takes time and it takes proof they can use in court. Even if BG was standing over the bodies with a murder weapon in his hand when the police found them, their case would not be completed in 48 hours. Real life murder isn't scripted and finished in an hour or two.

I'm very curious if anyone here really thinks the people in LE working this case, who've seen the evidence, including the bodies, really are interested in dragging their feet to arrest this guy? No LEO I've ever known could let a white collar crime go. This is a double homicide of two young girls.

Bueler?

 

[MistyWaters]

No worries. Just interested in different angles IF this turns out not to be RL. His "still being involved" seems to me like they are at least waiting on all the SW evidence to come back before anything gets stated definitively. Even the "I would not label him as a suspect" was followed by "at this time" in Leazenby's last comments to MSM, IIRC. And, since they stated at the time the SW was executed on 3/17 that it would take "4 to 6 weeks" and that the evidence would either "clear him or move him higher as a suspect" So, to me, that's fairly clear that until ALL that evidence is processed, AND they've said as much, he is still on their radar.

Is there an actual quoted source for "clear him or move him higher as a suspect" or is that what a reporter wrote because that sure sounds a lot like a complete misinterpretation of Sgt Slocum's comments.

March 17, 2017
"On Friday, Indiana State Police said they had developed more information that led them to request a new search warrant at the property.

"It's just a normal course of this investigation," said ISP Sgt. Tony Slocum. "We've served multiple search warrants so far. They can either exonerate a person or maybe require law enforcement to take a closer look."

Police had previously searched the property, and are still not calling Logan a suspect in the murders of 14-year-old Liberty German and 13-year-old Abigail Williams last month.

“Just let the investigation run its course and this might not be the last search warrant we serve as part of investigating this double homicide,” said Sgt. Slocum."
http://www.theindychannel.com/news/...erty-where-delphi-teens-abby-libby-found-dead


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[Burnt Toast]

LE has remarked numerous times there is No Suspect.

Besides, that link is from data that is seven years old. Given continual forensic advancements, that's a very long time.

LE rarely will identify a suspect before an arrest. the day of the search they were saying he was not a suspect, yet they were searching his home in connection to the double homicide. Now does that make sense??

 

[Bemused]

I believe there was some confusion due to one of the ISP officers mistaking the Monon High Bridge for the Freedom Bridge in an early interview. He quickly corrected himself, and from everything I have read, the girls were not on the Freedom Bridge the day in question.

It was Kim Riley and it was the presser he did with the Sheriff and the chief of police Mullins on 2/14 just several hours after the girls were found. It's on YouTube and about 10 minutes in length. At about the 9 minute mark pay attention to the question asked and the looks on all three of their faces.

 

[Shiressleuth]

In this modern world where DNA results can be fast tracked and received within a couple of days as was that at the crime scene, if LE has publicly stated that the SW results on RL's home place will take 6 weeks (did they or is that speculation?) then imo they're not anticipating anything of significance will come of it.


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I'm quoting what someone else said on here. ( Bemused I think).

 

[Burnt Toast]

Is there an actual quoted source for "clear him or move him higher as a suspect" or is that what a reporter wrote because that sure sounds a lot like a complete misinterpretation of Sgt Slocum's comments.

March 17, 2017
"On Friday, Indiana State Police said they had developed more information that led them to request a new search warrant at the property.

"It's just a normal course of this investigation," said ISP Sgt. Tony Slocum. "We've served multiple search warrants so far. They can either exonerate a person or maybe require law enforcement to take a closer look."

Police had previously searched the property, and are still not calling Logan a suspect in the murders of 14-year-old Liberty German and 13-year-old Abigail Williams last month.

&#8220;Just let the investigation run its course and this might not be the last search warrant we serve as part of investigating this double homicide,&#8221; said Sgt. Slocum."
http://www.theindychannel.com/news/...erty-where-delphi-teens-abby-libby-found-dead


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yes, LE said exactly that in a interview while outside his property on the day of the search. I will look for it when i have a chance. however, someone else will likely come across it and post it before me.