IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #58

[franci]

If you could ask LE one question, what would it be?


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I think I would ask if I could please see the FBI profilers report concerning the sort of person who would commit such a crime as this. Often times these profiles are amazingly close to reality and such a report would inevitably also reveal a lot of facts about the nature of the crime itself and what and how it happened. It would be a horror read but a very infomative one i think especially since as far as i know the actual profile itself has been kept tightly under wraps

 

[Tricia]

Closing until tomorrow morning.
G'night,
Tricia

 

[OneParticularHarbor]

MOO

I have always been a supporter of the bodies placed there later theory but lately have been leaning toward wondering if they had been found hanging? I hate even thinking these thoughts but if they were hanging, searchers could have walked right by them at night. <mod snip> Just my own thoughts and opinions.

I keep thinking that too. But it is NOT easy to hang someone who is conscious without assistance (I swear I have never tried.) IF they were hung, I would think it means either there was more than one perp, it was post mortem, or they were unconscious. IMO IMO IMO.

 

[OneParticularHarbor]

http://www.12news.com/news/local/ar...girl-found-dead-southeast-of-tucson/439415195
A missing 13 year old has been found dead. Nowhere in the geographical area, but the age pinged made me raise my eyebrow. Being investigated as a homicide.

 

[Falling Down]

MOO

I have always been a supporter of the bodies placed there later theory but lately have been leaning toward wondering if they had been found hanging? I hate even thinking these thoughts but if they were hanging, searchers could have walked right by them at night. <mod snip> Just my own thoughts and opinions.

Or tied to a tree.

 

[MistyWaters]

MOO

I have always been a supporter of the bodies placed there later theory but lately have been leaning toward wondering if they had been found hanging? I hate even thinking these thoughts but if they were hanging, searchers could have walked right by them at night. <mod snip> Just my own thoughts and opinions.

Certainly not my experience and aside from the fact there's no evidence whatsoever to indicate the discovery area was searched but even if so, wouldn't bodies hanging from the leafless trees be more visible against the bit of moonlight in the sky and therefore perhaps be somewhat easier to notice that whatever might be on the ground amongst a scattering of dropped leaves and dead branches? In cases that I'm aware of pertaining to bodies in trees that have went undiscovered, it's because they were well hidden within the leaf canopy. There were no leaves on Delphi trees in February.

 

[OneParticularHarbor]

Certainly not my experience and aside from the fact there's no evidence whatsoever to indicate the discovery area was searched but even if so, wouldn't bodies hanging from the leafless trees be more visible against the bit of moonlight in the sky and therefore perhaps be somewhat easier to notice that whatever might be on the ground amongst a scattering of dropped leaves and dead branches? In cases that I'm aware of pertaining to bodies in trees that have went undiscovered, it's because they were well hidden within the leaf canopy. There were no leaves on Delphi trees in February.

I've shared this story before, but no, when doing a search, you really don't necessarily look UP. I was involved in a search once, in winter, at night, where we didn't look up and the individual had hung themselves pretty high up. Right above the command post. Directly above. No one noticed until returning from the search in the morning.

Edited to add: forgot another daytime search in which the individual had hung themselves in their own backyard. There was a suicide note and we were searching the woods near the house. His poor wife found him a few hours after the search started. My fire department has learned to look up now, but seriously, it just isn't a natural inclination.

 

[Wild Rose]

Having been born and raised in Indiana, the audio sounds distinctly "hoosier" to my ear. While I don't think he's a Delphi resident, I would suspect he possibly lived within a 100-mile-or-so radius. JMO

I just did some light reading, the state motto for Indiana is "crossroads of America", 75% of the nation's population is within one day's drive. Major transportation hub, one of it's biggest industries is transportation. One out of four workers in Indiana works in some part of transportation field. Roads, waterways and ports, and railways. Noticed just east of Carroll County, major area for oil and gas wells. Originally, I was thinking someone in slaughterhouse or farming industry. Noticed oil workers have transitioned to solar workers over the years. Beautiful countryside in images.

 

[MistyWaters]

That's a good point. But couldn't they have been killed just outside of Delphi, but in a different location? Such as in a cabin or somewhere within a few mile radius? That would be considered just outside of Delphi.

Unlikely, in my opinion because then the scenario would become that LE was aware of the primary crime scene where the homicide occurred by the time the autopsy was completed, that was also just outside of Delph in Carroll County. (Per the Petition to Seal Autopsy Report).

If there had been another crime scene location where the actual homicides occured it would have commanded as much or more forensic attention as the discovery site. I noticed a media report that indicated the crime scene area on RL's land was taped off for two weeks as investigators "turned over every leaf". We saw dozens of LE vehicles parked from the sky via media helicopter while they worked at the site. That both the media and LE are keeping the homicide location a secret, I'd have to wonder what's the point?

 

[MistyWaters]

Just putting my thoughts down, as I think it's great that new people might have started to follow this case. It's about the bodies not being discovered that night. Considering the entire broad area that encompasses miles within walking distance of the Delphi trail system, including ravines, slopes and rough terrain, I think the Delphi organized search teams were remarkable in finding the bodies so quickly, by the early afternoon a day later

Just because RL said somebody asked him at 6:30pm on Feb 13th if they could search his land doesn't mean only his 40 acres were entirely searched. LE had indicated that "no foul play was expected" so the unorganized search parties were obviously looking for two girls who were alive and if they were still on or near the trails, were lost and therefore searchers were calling out, or at worst case scenario, they accidentally fell into the river. To me, it makes sense that's why the riverbanks were searched and RL's land in only one of several that abuts the river. His permission was asked for, and so probably was every other riverfront property owner.

But really what I wanted to write, we all have been teenagers at one time in our lives. Surely we all can remember when we weren't entirely responsible? Just imagine if everyone in a small town immediately began a dead body search for each of us every time we didn't show up precisely when we were supposed to. Such a thought, what kind of crazy place would that be where everyone was so paranoid for no reason whatsoever.

In this case, any person compelled to look for dead bodies in the dark that first night, considering LE announced as late as midnight that "no foul play was suspected" and in small towns the searchers were not strangers to each other, that person would become my #1 suspect. MOO


ETA: Early in this case we were joined by local people who offered general information that I found very interesting. Not tips or anything like that, but things that were helpful in understanding how it was for them. Unfortunately I don't notice that happening anymore.

I once lived in a small town where a media event occured. What eventually happened is a lot of blame was directed to the town in general by "outside" people along the lines of "why didn't they do this or that.....as if it was presumed we could see into the future. When that began occurring everyone local began refusing to talk about it, it just wasn't worth it. When the media trucks rolled into town everyone shut their doors. I hope that people of Delphi don't feel that same gloomy sense of blame because those who searched didn't find the bodies immediately.

 

[gregjrichards]

"Ahead of Mother&#8217;s Day, the families are opening up about how they continue to push through the pain every day.

&#8220;The pictures are a little harder to come across now and it is the ache that we fell that was not there, to begin with, and now with Mother&#8217;s Day around the corner, we are trying to figure out what do we do&#8230;because I don&#8217;t feel like celebrating much this year,&#8221; said Abby&#8217;s mother, Anna Williams."

http://cbs4indy.com/2017/05/12/ahea...-and-libby-family-pushes-forward-for-answers/

Heartbreaking. #FindHim #JusticeforAbbeyandLibby Tomorrow is Mother's Day in the U.S.

 

[jca91180]

Unlikely, in my opinion because then the scenario would become that LE was aware of the primary crime scene where the homicide occurred by the time the autopsy was completed, that was also just outside of Delph in Carroll County. (Per the Petition to Seal Autopsy Report).

If there had been another crime scene location where the actual homicides occured it would have commanded as much or more forensic attention as the discovery site. I noticed a media report that indicated the crime scene area on RL's land was taped off for two weeks as investigators "turned over every leaf". We saw dozens of LE vehicles parked from the sky via media helicopter while they worked at the site. That both the media and LE are keeping the homicide location a secret, I'd have to wonder what's the point?

I understand what you mean...thinking, though, that the part of RL's land where the girls were found is a grey area as far as seeming like it could be public property (meaning there may not be a "no trespassing sign, etc), so it would make sense for that spot to be taped off. A barn or outbuilding of some sort on RL's property or another neighbor's property may not need to be taped off as it is clearly private property. If a barn, grain bin, garage was the murder site and it's on a private farm would it definitely be taped off? Just thinking that photographs, video and lots of evidence could be taken from a scene in one visit and a trip back out by LE may not be necessary. I'm just thinking and these are all really questions...

And, I am NOT making a case for RL being BG at all...All IMO.

 

[MistyWaters]

I understand what you mean...thinking, though, that the part of RL's land where the girls were found is a grey area as far as seeming like it could be public property (meaning there may not be a "no trespassing sign, etc), so it would make sense for that spot to be taped off. A barn or outbuilding of some sort on RL's property or another neighbor's property may not need to be taped off as it is clearly private property. If a barn, grain bin, garage was the murder site and it's on a private farm would it definitely be taped off? Just thinking that photographs, video and lots of evidence could be taken from a scene in one visit and a trip back out by LE may not be necessary. I'm just thinking and these are all really questions...

And, I am NOT making a case for RL being BG at all...All IMO.

If the media helicopters were flying low enough to see what one reporter believed to be girls clothing in the creek, I think they'd have spotted any other areas the were taped off as a crime scene, along with the large presence of crime scene investigators and other personnel. The actual location of death is very important in terms of forensic and medical examination, probably more so than a secondary location, if the bodies are moved. It connects the perpetrator directly to the murder, as opposed the far lesser crime of being involved by moving a dead body. The two weeks they spent "turning over every leaf" at the crime scene suggests they were incredibly thorough at that location because it was also the site of a homicide. If there was a primary location in an outside building, it wouldn't really make sense that they'd spend hardly any time processing that as opposed to the lesser crime scene because that's be where the most important evidence to prosecute the perpetrator would be found.

I also think this case would be moving forward at a distinct disadvantage if the known location of the homicide was elsewhere and kept secret, considering the energy that LE has put into pleading for tips.

The origins of outbuilding theory iirc began with Abby's death occuring a day later, which was also debunked by the legal information in the Petition to Seal the Autopsy Report.

 

[jca91180]

If the media helicopters were flying low enough to see what one reporter believed to be girls clothing in the creek, I think they'd have spotted any other areas the were taped off as a crime scene, along with the large presence of crime scene investigators and other personnel. The actual location of death is very important in terms of forensic and medical examination, probably more so than a secondary location, if the bodies are moved. It connects the perpetrator directly to the murder, as opposed the far lesser crime of being involved by moving a dead body. The two weeks they spent "turning over every leaf" at the crime scene suggests they were incredibly thorough at that location because it was also the site of a homicide. If there was a primary location in an outside building, it wouldn't really make sense that they'd spend hardly any time processing that as opposed to the lesser crime scene because that's be where the most important evidence to prosecute the perpetrator would be found.

I also think this case would be moving forward at a distinct disadvantage if the known location of the homicide was elsewhere and kept secret, considering the energy that LE has put into pleading for tips.

The origins of outbuilding theory iirc began with Abby's death occuring a day later, which was also debunked by the legal information in the Petition to Seal the Autopsy Report.

Great points... I do think back to RL saying how "pristine" the scene was and this is in contradiction to the accounts from LE stating the murder was so horrific. We are obviously missing a few parts of this puzzle. I hope with all my heart LE isn't missing these pieces!

 

[tuffgongc9]

I also think this is most likely. Or killed very near where they were found. It is still puzzling under what circumstances they got here though. It would mean they crossed the creek. Where they were found was more isolated than the other side of the creek where the bridge ends. So purposely leaving the bodies across the creek where they were found would most likely buy the perp more time (and it likely did). Still, they were last known to be on the other side. Were they marched across the creek alive at gunpoint? Somehow manipulated to go over there? Were their bodies carried or dragged across the water and put here? Were they somehow later brought down through the cemetery entrance on the other side? (I don't think this is likely, but it's not out of the question). Even knowing he had some time, the perp would have been very vulnerable every second he was down near the creek with the girls dead or alive. JMO.

 

[AmateurAnalyst73]

It was referred to as "pristine" AFTER the scene had been processed. One thing to remember is that LE/CSI has cleaners who come in after a CS is processed. Even disturbances to leaves on the ground, etc, could have simply been raked or blown to blend the are back in with its surroundings. Also...blood is organic, and anyone who has ever hunted can tell you that blood, especially once dry, blends naturally with other organic material in the woods, especially rotting leaves and other debris on the forest floor.

Great points... I do think back to RL saying how "pristine" the scene was and this is in contradiction to the accounts from LE stating the murder was so horrific. We are obviously missing a few parts of this puzzle. I hope with all my heart LE isn't missing these pieces!

 

[AmateurAnalyst73]

According to the GH and JM videos, the creek is barely ankle deep in a section near the area they were found in. I lean towards them being walked across. I have theorized(so, of course may be completely wrong) that BG may have used a ploy, such as "your gpa/dad/etc was in an accident, and I was asked to come get you. My vehicle is parked at the cememtery because it's closer....let's go.....'down the hill' " If some ploy were used, he could have even let them walk ahead, to give them a sense of confidence(feeling like they could outrun him if things got weird). Once across the creek, if he attacked the first one from behind, with a weapon such as a gun or knife, by the time the second one realized what was going on, she likely would have had no time at all to react, or even scream. I suspect BG parked at the cemetery, which is very close to the CS, and exited the area immediately. Maybe on a motorcycle(due to his layered jackets, and ease of concealment vs. a car or truck)

I also think this is most likely. Or killed very near where they were found. It is still puzzling under what circumstances they got here though. It would mean they crossed the creek. Where they were found was more isolated than the other side of the creek where the bridge ends. So purposely leaving the bodies across the creek where they were found would most likely buy the perp more time (and it likely did). Still, they were last known to be on the other side. Were they marched across the creek alive at gunpoint? Somehow manipulated to go over there? Were their bodies carried or dragged across the water and put here? Were they somehow later brought down through the cemetery entrance on the other side? (I don't think this is likely, but it's not out of the question). Even knowing he had some time, the perp would have been very vulnerable every second he was down near the creek with the girls dead or alive. JMO.

 

[Brubon]

Agree. I also thought Northern Kentucky. Kentuckians aren't always super twangy. Especially Indiana Kentucky border area.

For some reason when I heard it I thought of Illinois or someone living in a border town in Illinois close to Indiana. He sounds like a geography teacher I had in middle school in Illinois.

I worked with a man years ago who came from Bowling Green, Ohio. He is no longer with us, but the voice of BG makes me think of him. He was a kind man...not a monster.

 

[JLSChook]

and i haven't seen him anywhere. i have no idea what his face look like.

Although it's hard to see specific features on his face, you can definitely pick out 'the type"..IYKWIM. The nose, the shape of his face, his stance, his clothing, etc...

I, too, see BG's everywhere. And I'm in Canada.

On a stupid side note because I'm gabby today...I'm one of those people that usually give everyone nicknames. Every day when I go out, there's an older guy that sits on his balcony and says hello/good morning to me. I call him balcony guy.

Yesterday, when I came home and said, "Hi, balcony guy!"...He told me to call him BG, for short. :facepalm:

 

[MistyWaters]

I also think this is most likely. Or killed very near where they were found. It is still puzzling under what circumstances they got here though. It would mean they crossed the creek. Where they were found was more isolated than the other side of the creek where the bridge ends. So purposely leaving the bodies across the creek where they were found would most likely buy the perp more time (and it likely did). Still, they were last known to be on the other side. Were they marched across the creek alive at gunpoint? Somehow manipulated to go over there? Were their bodies carried or dragged across the water and put here? Were they somehow later brought down through the cemetery entrance on the other side? (I don't think this is likely, but it's not out of the question). Even knowing he had some time, the perp would have been very vulnerable every second he was down near the creek with the girls dead or alive. JMO.

My imagination only, possibly both Abby and Libby realized sudden danger at some point near or beyond the end of the rail bridge, they fled across the river at the point of the sand bars (google maps) but the steep slopes beyond impeded their progress. If they were being aggressively pursued, there may not have been opportunity to call 911. An unpleasant thought but not unlike a hunter capturing their prey.

I think he was long gone from the crime scene well before it was intended that the girls be picked up later that afternoon.