IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #58

[cluciano63]

LE would have searched the entire area as closely as they could, to try to pick up any sign of tire tracks, footprints, or any new debris. I don't find it unusual that the search expanded when they were found.

 

[kat913]

If the girls had been killed elsewhere at placed where they were found it does not necessarily mean that they were taken nearby and could have been taken many miles from the bridge area. So, I would not presume that LE had found the murder scene as well.

For what it is worth, until LE says otherwise I do not believe they have found the murder scene. The level of activity and large personnel presence in conjunction with the searches at both the Bicycle Bridge location and RL's property suggests to me that LE is looking for a location where the girls were present and/or murdered. The removal of RL's truck suggests that LE is looking for a vehicle. Either a truck, a light-colored vehicle that takes a specific tire, or a light-colored truck that takes a specific tire.

I could very well be wrong.

BBM

Wonder if they were just testing tire treads....maybe truck tire tracks were found.

 

[Jethro4WS]

According to the GH and JM videos, the creek is barely ankle deep in a section near the area they were found in. I lean towards them being walked across. I have theorized(so, of course may be completely wrong) that BG may have used a ploy, such as "your gpa/dad/etc was in an accident, and I was asked to come get you. My vehicle is parked at the cememtery because it's closer....let's go.....'down the hill' " If some ploy were used, he could have even let them walk ahead, to give them a sense of confidence(feeling like they could outrun him if things got weird). Once across the creek, if he attacked the first one from behind, with a weapon such as a gun or knife, by the time the second one realized what was going on, she likely would have had no time at all to react, or even scream. I suspect BG parked at the cemetery, which is very close to the CS, and exited the area immediately. Maybe on a motorcycle(due to his layered jackets, and ease of concealment vs. a car or truck)

Keep in mind that the water was deeper on February 13th than it was several weeks later when the JM videos were taken. The water flow was 500 cubic feet per second on February 13th. Around the time of JM's videos it was only 150 cubic feet per second. That means there was 70% less water in that creek when those videos by JM were taken. Some of the "islands" you see in JM's video were underwater on February 14th if you compare where JM was on the South side of the creek looking across with the helicopter video of the same area.

It is very important to understand that the creek seen in JM's video is not at all what it looked like on February 14th, let alone February 13th.

 

[Rosewater20]

Still thinking about this case. Hoping charges will be made.

 

[megswede]

Link didn't copy right, trying again. Wiechman's has stations in LaPorte, IA, Delhi, IA, and Delphi, IN. The Iowa locations are about 30 and 60 miles from Seven Bridges County Park. http://wiechmanpig.com/stations.html

 

[Confusion]

My biggest discrepancy with this theory is where BG and Liberty were located on the bridge when she filmed him. BG(according to GH's final video and assessment) was ~70-80' from the SE end, and Liberty was likely off that end of the bridge when she filmed him. To walk them back across would have risked encountering other hikers, whereas taking them "down the hill" just off the SE end, and across the shallow section of the creek, would get them out of sight of anyone on the trail or who might have been mounting the NW end of the bridge.

I've addressed this several times already, but I'll do it again - I love to blab!

The girls would most likely have been getting ready to meet their ride around the time she got the video of BG, and were most likely approaching the bridge to start heading to the pick up spot. I think that they started heading north while he was coming south, and they may have waited on the first platform for him to pass. Once he did, they continued north and he turned around and followed them. Once they stepped off the bridge, he either grabbed each by the arm or he grabbed one of them and threatened to kill her if the other didn't comply. Since MP had said he thought they were both heroes, I suspect he may have grabbed LG and AW wouldn't leave her. It's also possible that he grabbed one of them at the end of the bridge, and caught the other one first if she broke free and they both ran. There are so many ways things could have happened, I wonder if we'll ever know exactly what he did. MOO

 

[Shiressleuth]

The Petition to seal Autopsy report, I think we all became transfixed on the date of death and overlooked the fact that the location is also stated.

On February 13, 2017 Abigail Williams and Liberty German were killed just outside of Delphi in Carroll County, Indiana."
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ty-German-14-Delphi-13-Feb-2017-47&styleid=21

I know we have been over this but I was reading the obituary for A today and the wording is passing on the 14th so I still have doubts. They could also have been taken away and brought back to be killed so I am not convinced there was no other crime scene. I also agree the points about the two property searches ( 3 including the M barn) and removal of RL vehicle made by Jethro are also indicative of another crime scene possibly.

 

[AmateurAnalyst73]

While I agree, to a point, speed is not equal to volume, and vice versa, so while we can safely assume the water level was higher, we can't know exactly how much higher, as the run-off from snow melt, rain, etc also increases the speed. A single inch added to the depth, when the speed is also increased, could increase the rate of flow by possibly 100's of cubic feet per second, I believe. JMO

Keep in mind that the water was deeper on February 13th than it was several weeks later when the JM videos were taken. The water flow was 500 cubic feet per second on February 13th. Around the time of JM's videos it was only 150 cubic feet per second. That means there was 70% less water in that creek when those videos by JM were taken. Some of the "islands" you see in JM's video were underwater on February 14th if you compare where JM was on the South side of the creek looking across with the helicopter video of the same area.

It is very important to understand that the creek seen in JM's video is not at all what it looked like on February 14th, let alone February 13th.

 

[MistyWaters]

I know we have been over this but I was reading the obituary for A today and the wording is passing on the 14th so I still have doubts. They could also have been taken away and brought back to be killed so I am not convinced.

You have the right to believe whatever is your theory. The only thing to consider is the Petition to Seal Autopsy Report is a document filed in court by the Prosecutor for Carroll County. That's significant because it's also the Prosecutor who must beyond reproach during a trial if and when the perpetrator is ever to be held accountable.

And if facts filed with the court cannot be believed to be factual, then what of this case can we believe? Certainly not the media, as their news reports are not legal documents.

 

[AmateurAnalyst73]

I suppose it might depend on how quickly they could have gotten back to the NW end. The photo of AW was taken at 2:07pm, and LE have stated that they encountered BG at ~2:30. There were other hikers on the bridge at or around 3:00pm, who saw and heard nothing. The walk from the NW end of the bridge to the CS is several hundred yards, iirc, so I would assume that when the other hikers mounted the bridge, according to your theory, BG and the girls likely would have still been walking to the CS, or would have just arrived. If that were the case, I would also suspect the other hikers would have heard something. I suppose BG could have had them bound and gagged, but i would still assume a scream or some evidence of struggle would have been audible. Had they crossed the creek, assuming they were killed where they were found, and no SA, they would likely have been dead, and BG exiting the area ~2:45, with the area being silent and seemingly serene by the time the other hikers arrived ~3:00. I am not saying you are wrong, just that it seems more likely to have been completely over with by the 3:00pm mark, assuming they were killed where they were found.

I've addressed this several times already, but I'll do it again - I love to blab!

The girls would most likely have been getting ready to meet their ride around the time she got the video of BG, and were most likely approaching the bridge to start heading to the pick up spot. I think that they started heading north while he was coming south, and they may have waited on the first platform for him to pass. Once he did, they continued north and he turned around and followed them. Once they stepped off the bridge, he either grabbed each by the arm or he grabbed one of them and threatened to kill her if the other didn't comply. Since MP had said he thought they were both heroes, I suspect he may have grabbed LG and AW wouldn't leave her. It's also possible that he grabbed one of them at the end of the bridge, and caught the other one first if she broke free and they both ran. There are so many ways things could have happened, I wonder if we'll ever know exactly what he did. MOO

 

[fruity]

Keep in mind that the water was deeper on February 13th than it was several weeks later when the JM videos were taken. The water flow was 500 cubic feet per second on February 13th. Around the time of JM's videos it was only 150 cubic feet per second. That means there was 70% less water in that creek when those videos by JM were taken. Some of the "islands" you see in JM's video were underwater on February 14th if you compare where JM was on the South side of the creek looking across with the helicopter video of the same area.

It is very important to understand that the creek seen in JM's video is not at all what it looked like on February 14th, let alone February 13th.

I think it's also pertinent to remember two things regarding BG.

LE said that Libby felt threatened and so started recording him. We don't know why she felt threatened but we know from this that it wasn't a friendly encounter.

Also, LE said he was exasperated/frustrated when he said 'down the hill'. Again, we don't know why this was said, but when LE throws out a little bit of information I think it's important to make note of it.

So JMO I don't believe a ploy was used. I personally think it was much more direct.

 

[Shiressleuth]

You have the right to believe whatever is your theory. The only thing to consider is the Petition to Seal Autopsy Report is a document filed in court by the Prosecutor for Carroll County. That's significant because it's also the Prosecutor who must beyond reproach during a trial if and when the perpetrator is ever to be held accountable.

And if facts filed with the court cannot be believed to be factual, then what of this case can we believe? Certainly not the media, as their news reports are not legal documents.

I will have these doubts until the full autopsy is available. We have heard people saying that loved ones have died overnight and timing of several hours have been provided for the date of death (e.g. between 11 p.m. and 2a.m.) so they have chosen the day. This could be a similar instance so until the full autopsy and full facts are avaliable my doubts will remain. Once there is a trial the full autopsy should be available as evidence anyway. Till then my judgement and opinion is reserved on this issue as well as the possible existence of two crime scenes.

 

[southernmimi]

I think it's also pertinent to remember two things regarding BG.

LE said that Libby felt threatened and so started recording him. We don't know why she felt threatened but we know from this that it wasn't a friendly encounter.

Also, LE said he was exasperated/frustrated when he said 'down the hill'. Again, we don't know why this was said, but when LE throws out a little bit of information I think it's important to make note of it.

So JMO I don't believe a ploy was used. I personally think it was much more direct.

Do you think it's possible that Libby and Abby had some type of encounter with BG earlier during their hike, and he scared them with a threat or what he said? If no weapon was used to scare them, the tone of his voice could have.

 

[Shiressleuth]

I suppose it might depend on how quickly they could have gotten back to the NW end. The photo of AW was taken at 2:07pm, and LE have stated that they encountered BG at ~2:30. There were other hikers on the bridge at or around 3:00pm, who saw and heard nothing. The walk from the NW end of the bridge to the CS is several hundred yards, iirc, so I would assume that when the other hikers mounted the bridge, according to your theory, BG and the girls likely would have still been walking to the CS, or would have just arrived. If that were the case, I would also suspect the other hikers would have heard something. I suppose BG could have had them bound and gagged, but i would still assume a scream or some evidence of struggle would have been audible. Had they crossed the creek, assuming they were killed where they were found, and no SA, they would likely have been dead, and BG exiting the area ~2:45, with the area being silent and seemingly serene by the time the other hikers arrived ~3:00. I am not saying you are wrong, just that it seems more likely to have been completely over with by the 3:00pm mark, assuming they were killed where they were found.

Have you got the details of these other hikers on the bridge?

 

[Confusion]

I suppose it might depend on how quickly they could have gotten back to the NW end. The photo of AW was taken at 2:07pm, and LE have stated that they encountered BG at ~2:30. There were other hikers on the bridge at or around 3:00pm, who saw and heard nothing. The walk from the NW end of the bridge to the CS is several hundred yards, iirc, so I would assume that when the other hikers mounted the bridge, according to your theory, BG and the girls likely would have still been walking to the CS, or would have just arrived. If that were the case, I would also suspect the other hikers would have heard something. I suppose BG could have had them bound and gagged, but i would still assume a scream or some evidence of struggle would have been audible. Had they crossed the creek, assuming they were killed where they were found, and no SA, they would likely have been dead, and BG exiting the area ~2:45, with the area being silent and seemingly serene by the time the other hikers arrived ~3:00. I am not saying you are wrong, just that it seems more likely to have been completely over with by the 3:00pm mark, assuming they were killed where they were found.

Like I said, there are many ways things could have happened. In my understanding, it only takes a few minutes to cross the bridge. If they started toward the cemetery, they would have been on fairly flat ground which would allow them to move fairly quickly. If they also ran after a bit, it would be even faster. Under the circumstances (athletic girls running for their lives), I don't see it taking that much longer than going down to the creek in the terrain over there, crossing the icy moving water, and continuing up another 50+ feet to where they were found. As in your example, there wasn't necessarily any SA. Again, MOO

 

[Jethro4WS]

While I agree, to a point, speed is not equal to volume, and vice versa, so while we can safely assume the water level was higher, we can't know exactly how much higher, as the run-off from snow melt, rain, etc also increases the speed. A single inch added to the depth, when the speed is also increased, could increase the rate of flow by possibly 100's of cubic feet per second, I believe. JMO

The difference in the gage height was 1.1 feet between February 13th and the time of the JM videos - 3.5 feet versus 2.4 feet. So the depth was 30% lower. Like I said, you can see prominently an "island" in the creek in JM's video that is not above water at all in the helicopter video. Cubic feet is a volume measure. Cubic feet per second is a volume measure over time (in this case, one second). Flow is a measure of volume over a period of time not speed. Speed is something altogether different and would be measured and reported differently.

 

[gregjrichards]

Do you think it's possible that Libby and Abby had some type of encounter with BG earlier during their hike, and he scared them with a threat or what he said? If no weapon was used to scare them, the tone of his voice could have.

I've thought he may have looked at the girls in a creepy way earlier and when they saw him coming back towards them Libby got worried and started recording him.

 

[Jethro4WS]

I think it's also pertinent to remember two things regarding BG.

LE said that Libby felt threatened and so started recording him. We don't know why she felt threatened but we know from this that it wasn't a friendly encounter.

Also, LE said he was exasperated/frustrated when he said 'down the hill'. Again, we don't know why this was said, but when LE throws out a little bit of information I think it's important to make note of it.

So JMO I don't believe a ploy was used. I personally think it was much more direct.

I am not sure what your comment has to do with mine, did you mean to reply to a different comment?

At any rate, what you say about "down the hill" is significant. Upon listening to the recording it gave me a sense of the kind of profession, current or former, of the speaker. When LE later said exasperated - that only cemented it for me. LE, themselves, should pick up on that - and I would suggest focus on that. Most people don't hear exasperation because in their general experience exasperation doesn't sound like that at all. But it does sound like that amongst people whose profession is a position of authority where they encounter on a daily basis non-cooperative individuals and they would not last long in said profession if they expressed exasperation with non-compliance the way regular people do.

It is precisely what lead me to my suspects - since I believe there is more than one perpetrator involved. Without the recording of "down the hill" I would not have any suspect(s) at this point.

 

[Shiressleuth]

The difference in the gage height was 1.1 feet between February 13th and the time of the JM videos - 3.5 feet versus 2.4 feet. So the depth was 30% lower. Like I said, you can see prominently an "island" in the creek in JM's video that is not above water at all in the helicopter video. Cubic feet is a volume measure. Cubic feet per second is a volume measure over time (in this case, one second). Flow is a measure of volume over a period of time not speed. Speed is something altogether different and would be measured and reported differently.

And the girls were 5 feet 4 in so it would have been nearly chest height. They couldn't have run through that they would have had to swim imo.

 

[peedoffinny]

I don't know why, but I still think this was some type of thrill kill. I hope the murderer will slip up and tell someone. . Imagine going on a great vacation, something you dreamed about forever, had a wonderful time and not be able to tell anyone about it? I'd have to tell at least one person or I'd explode. I wonder how hard it is to keep this all to himself.