IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #58

[Jethro4WS]

I will have these doubts until the full autopsy is available. We have heard people saying that loved ones have died overnight and timing of several hours have been provided for the date of death (e.g. between 11 p.m. and 2a.m.) so they have chosen the day. This could be a similar instance so until the full autopsy and full facts are avaliable my doubts will remain. Once there is a trial the full autopsy should be available as evidence anyway. Till then my judgement and opinion is reserved on this issue as well as the possible existence of two crime scenes.

It is right to wait for the release of information. A petition to seal only requires an affidavit where facts are stated, to the best of their knowledge at that point in time. Some of these facts can turn out to be determined at a later time to not to be a fact at all and/or is actually untrue. So long as an attested statement of fact is not made of something that is known to be false at the timethen the judge must accept it on its face as true.

Often times you will see this with search warrants. With a case search warrants are applied for at different dates going forward in time from the time of the crime. If you were to read the affidavits it is not uncommon to see facts attested to in the earliest warrants completely missing or changed in later warrants. For example, in the Missy Bevers case the earliest three search warrants (prior to her autopsy) mentioned wounds and attributed those to indicate a mechanism of death (without using that precise term). Later warrants starting just hours after the autopsy no longer attested to such facts - they were no longer stated in any warrant going forward.

We have no way of knowing that the attested statement or alleged fact of the location of the murder is truly a fact or merely a "to the best of their knowledge" kind of fact at the time of the preparation of the Petition To Seal. Until LE releases more information or this goes to trial the veracity of that fact cannot be ascertained.

 

[MistyWaters]

I will have these doubts until the full autopsy is available. We have heard people saying that loved ones have died overnight and timing of several hours have been provided for the date of death (e.g. between 11 p.m. and 2a.m.) so they have chosen the day. This could be a similar instance so until the full autopsy and full facts are avaliable my doubts will remain. Once there is a trial the full autopsy should be available as evidence anyway. Till then my judgement and opinion is reserved on this issue as well as the possible existence of two crime scenes.

I trust the Prosecutor is competent and has properly restated those few facts of the autopsy in his Petition that it be sealed.

But for sure, the examples you mention may indeed come to light if and when there's a trial. The reason is Defence attorneys often dispute the time and location of death in order to create reasonable doubt in the minds of the jury, intending their client will be found not guilty.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Peace777]

JMO but I think the autopsies are sealed because of the way these poor girls were murdered and likely the murderer and maybe an accomplice will know the how, what and where. Something tells me the girls were attacked in more than one way, i.e stabbed etc. If they were strangled the murderer knows what he used. JMO
But LE brought up, "was it "a" or "the" twist" to this case?

 

[Shiressleuth]

JMO but I think the autopsies are sealed because of the way these poor girls were murdered and likely the murderer and maybe an accomplice will know the how, what and where. Something tells me the girls were attacked in more than one way, i.e stabbed etc. If they were strangled the murderer knows what he used. JMO
But LE brought up, "was it "a" or "the" twist" to this case?

I agree Peace. The full facts will not be available till trial for many reasons.

 

[Ember123]

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7b0qlcyn7mNa29MTXdnWU9mUEk/view?usp=drivesdk

Hope and Pray I am doing this right!! Trying to send a link here of logo I saw in bicycle shop today. Could this be part of white thing beneath BG's jacket?

 

[Ember123]

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7b0qlcyn7mNa29MTXdnWU9mUEk/view?usp=drivesdk

Hope and Pray I am doing this right!! Trying to send a link here of logo I saw in bicycle shop today. Could this be part of white thing beneath BG's jacket?

Could it be on a neck gaiter he wore upside down scrunched beneath his neck (to cover his face with when needed?)
I also saw a Harley Skull logo today and wonder if that could be on a scrunched up neck gaiter worn by BG (possibly upside down) to hide his face when needed?

 

[Jabarn]

JMO but I think the autopsies are sealed because of the way these poor girls were murdered and likely the murderer and maybe an accomplice will know the how, what and where. Something tells me the girls were attacked in more than one way, i.e stabbed etc. If they were strangled the murderer knows what he used. JMO
But LE brought up, "was it "a" or "the" twist" to this case?

Yes, I think so too (why the autopsies are sealed). I understand that completely, but also wonder the outcome of keeping too much information in the hands of the investigators, who have dwindled in numbers, and as time goes by, will dwindle further.

Someone here (thank you!) earlier today linked an article about the Oakland County Child Murders that happened 40 years ago, so off I went to research. The parents and siblings feel shut in the dark and wish they had more information from the investigation.

Both cases have some similarities, despite the wide difference on the timeline. I can't see how it could be a common killer, but is another case involving unsolved child murders.

Hindsight is 20/20, and I hope there are lessons learned from one tragedy to how investigators handle the next one.

 

[jca91180]

I am not sure what your comment has to do with mine, did you mean to reply to a different comment?

At any rate, what you say about "down the hill" is significant. Upon listening to the recording it gave me a sense of the kind of profession, current or former, of the speaker. When LE later said exasperated - that only cemented it for me. LE, themselves, should pick up on that - and I would suggest focus on that. Most people don't hear exasperation because in their general experience exasperation doesn't sound like that at all. But it does sound like that amongst people whose profession is a position of authority where they encounter on a daily basis non-cooperative individuals and they would not last long in said profession if they expressed exasperation with non-compliance the way regular people do.

It is precisely what lead me to my suspects - since I believe there is more than one perpetrator involved. Without the recording of "down the hill" I would not have any suspect(s) at this point.

As in teacher, coach, fireman, LEO, etc? IMO

 

[fruity]

Do you think it's possible that Libby and Abby had some type of encounter with BG earlier during their hike, and he scared them with a threat or what he said? If no weapon was used to scare them, the tone of his voice could have.

Just MOO of course, but yes. I believe there was an encounter with BG a while before he was on the bridge.

 

[fruity]

I am not sure what your comment has to do with mine, did you mean to reply to a different comment
.

RSBM

I was agreeing with you and piggybacking on the point you made. I do wish this site allowed nested quotes.

 

[JLSChook]

Oh dear. He doesn't know what he was saying. He doesn't look like BG does he? That would be too creepy.

No, he doesn't look like BG at all. Too short, too..ummm...big..too old...too Canadian.

 

[ClementineK]

Everywhere I go I see BG's!! Seriously!! :thinking:

A little OT... I had a real, "Oh crap" moment when I started studying detailed maps of the most likely travel routes if he was involved in the Iowa girls' case. I was looking at the most obvious travel routes between those two places. If he were to have a radius from which he felt comfortable traveling to do these deeds, and lives in between... The exact middle point within that travel route is the little city I live in. I've enjoyed nature trails my whole life and I walk my dogs at one daily. Luckily one of them looks pretty intimidating so I feel safe.

Geez....I was ALREADY seeing BGs everywhere..


*****Back to being more on topic and less paranoid*****

Out of those here who also have the feeling that he is a SK - How likely do you think it is that he operates within a radius of home in the midwest? A comfortable distance but close enough to not be noticed as absent if he took a short day trip..

All of these things are guesses and only ever IMO unless I state otherwise..

 

[her]

Well I just wanted to say to those mothers out there Happy Mother's Day for tomorrow.

Im sure I will have the mothers to our girls in my thoughts tomorrow an that includes Libby's grandmother who raised her.

:tyou::tyou:

 

[mtnlites]

I don't know why, but I still think this was some type of thrill kill. I hope the murderer will slip up and tell someone. . Imagine going on a great vacation, something you dreamed about forever, had a wonderful time and not be able to tell anyone about it? I'd have to tell at least one person or I'd explode. I wonder how hard it is to keep this all to himself.

This is the main reason why I have trouble believing 2 people are involved, much less 3 or more. One can keep a secret, two have difficulty. With a small group, it's almost impossible. Someone WILL talk eventually.

 

[JLSChook]

Jmo I cannot see taking the girls away, and then bringing their bodies back. It does not seem like easy terrain even if one was familiar, and would probably be dark if this were to be attempted. Yes, these girls were young teens but of adult size. Not an easy thing to do.

Also, why do it? If BG had taken or forced the girls elsewhere, why on earth bring them back? Makes no sense at all to me and I do not believe it happened. Jmo

Agreed. I don't think it happened either. It doesn't make any sense. Even the dumbest of killers would not return one body, let alone two, to a place where the girls were last seen and missing from.

Seriously, how would he know that people (including LE) weren't already out in full force, looking for them?

 

[ClementineK]

This is the main reason why I have trouble believing 2 people are involved, much less 3 or more. One can keep a secret, two have difficulty. With a small group, it's almost impossible. Someone WILL talk eventually.

I don't personally think two killers were involved, but if there were there would be even more hope for this to be solved. Like I've seen said before, "Two can keep a secret if one is dead." Let's hope there's enough usable evidence that if someone spills the beans it could solidify the case.

But like peedoffinny said - That's a tough secret to keep, period. Let's hope that he can't do it!!

 

[mtnlites]

Agreed. I don't think it happened either. It doesn't make any sense. Even the dumbest of killers would not return one body, let alone two, to a place where the girls were last seen and missing from.

Seriously, how would he know that people (including LE) weren't already out in full force, looking for them?

I agree with you. I am not a killer and I can still think of 10 different things to do with a dead body that are better ideas than returning it to where I took it in the first place.

 

[Deleted member 196796]

Everywhere I go I see BG's!! Seriously!! :thinking:

A little OT... I had a real, "Oh crap" moment when I started studying detailed maps of the most likely travel routes if he was involved in the Iowa girls' case. I was looking at the most obvious travel routes between those two places. If he were to have a radius from which he felt comfortable traveling to do these deeds, and lives in between... The exact middle point within that travel route is the little city I live in. I've enjoyed nature trails my whole life and I walk my dogs at one daily. Luckily one of them looks pretty intimidating so I feel safe.

Geez....I was ALREADY seeing BGs everywhere..


*****Back to being more on topic and less paranoid*****

Out of those here who also have the feeling that he is a SK - How likely do you think it is that he operates within a radius of home in the midwest? A comfortable distance but close enough to not be noticed as absent if he took a short day trip..

All of these things are guesses and only ever IMO unless I state otherwise..

"Unlike Bundy, most serial killers have very well defined geographic areas of operation. Bundy twice escaped from police custody and committed at least thirty homicides in the states of Washington, Utah, Florida, Colorado, Oregon, Idaho and California" - https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/5-myths-about-serial-killers-and-why-they-persist-excerpt/

IMO the likeliness of BG operating outside of Indiana is slim but not impossible.

 

[Jabarn]

I try to stay focused on the facts, and do "roll and scroll" past the posts that seem a bit far-fetched.

I have not seriously considered the Delphi girls to have have any connection to the Iowa cousins killings. For starters, I was thinking it was too far away.

But what do I know?

So few details have been released to the public.

Justice for Lyric Cook and Elizabeth Collins slips away more each day. It makes me SO SAD how young they were when they were killed.

Other than the some kind of similarity in the dates and manipulating the numbers around (not sure I buy that), being found outdoors near bodies of water, and being a double murder, what other evidence is available as similarities between these crimes?

 

[mtnlites]

I don't personally think two killers were involved, but if there were there would be even more hope for this to be solved. Like I've seen said before, "Two can keep a secret if one is dead." Let's hope there's enough usable evidence that if someone spills the beans it could solidify the case.

But like peedoffinny said - That's a tough secret to keep, period. Let's hope that he can't do it!!

I am honestly starting to think that this killer is either one of the smartest criminals around or simply one of the luckiest.