IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #59

[Ember123]

Personally I could envision "down the hill" accompanied by a gun in the girls' faces and him quickly glancing around to be sure he didn't see any other hikers as he marched them quickly down the hill. IMO

.. and then possibly slipped a prepared rope around one or both (if he had prepped 2) girls' necks to quiet them and control them moving forward... moo ...

 

[asyousay]

It is interesting how we interpret things. To ME it says they are on someone's trail and are going back over what the person said or did early on. Like maybe they wrote them off in the beginning but now they have a solid lead and are revisiting it.

I hope you are right as these girls deserve justice. Every time I come on here I hope to see that a arrest has been made.

 

[Peace777]

This strikes me as a fresh observation (or orientation) with regard to the crime. I've been returning to sleuths, agreeing with others that it's shocking how long we, and the community of the girls, have gone without following up from Law Enforcement. Perhaps some new "map" can illustrate Peace 777's logistics---? I've been imagining where a brutal crime could be accomplished in our neighborhood (urban by a park) and had to consider a variety of elements. When you know your area, you could strategize. My opinion is this wasn't opportunity, it was arranged.

Here's what I come up with from Google Maps, please feel free to add anything to it or if I've miss labelled something thanks. Address is where AW lived and it's relation to MHB JMO

 

[Ghosthunter]

Not necessarily. If the recording ended abruptly - other than simply stopping the recording or powering the phone down - then the file in the cloud would be incomplete. In that scenario the file might just be a temporary file or even a file that has some kind of extension like ".part" rather than a video extension. An incomplete file would also be missing any CRC32 or checksum information or other file format requirements to make it a valid, playable video. If that were the case it would require the software tools and skill set to recover and make the file playable.

I do not believe, based on the search activities the next day, that LE has Libby's phone. I do believe that whatever amount of video LE has is what was recoverable in the cloud. When they showed that news report about phone forensics they made a point of saying that they weren't going to show how the forensics people went about getting the video and then proceeded to hook up one of their phones to a cable and used forensic extraction/recovery software on that phone. If that is not what the phone forensics people did with Libby's phone, then LE does not have her phone.

I would suggest that it would be quite the trophy if this is the work of a serial killer. They could replay that video/audio over and over and over again to relive what they did more vividly. In the case of a serial killer, unless the killer never came across the phone it is extremely unlikely that LE has it.

I don't think le has the phone either. I think that may have been what they were searching for with what appeared to me to be metal detectors. Jmo

 

[MistyWaters]

I don't think le has the phone either. I think that may have been what they were searching for with what appeared to me to be metal detectors. Jmo

This video illustrates the actual procedure used to analyze the cellphone. Therefore in my opinion it proves LE has at least one of the two (depending if Abby had a cellphone or not).

Delphi segment begins @1:35
Indiana Computer Crimes Against Children Taskforce Assisting In Delphi Murders Investigation
http://www.wow.com/video/590202f5955a31380f55a1aa

 

[Marples]

Those are excellent questions.
However I work in neurodegenerative diseases such as Alzheimer's and Parkinson's, and am not in the field of behavioral neurobiology.

That said, IMHOO, individuals with the capability to murder must have an intrinsic tendency for this unique type of violence. You cannot curb this type of behavior.

Our DNA encodes for our eye color, our height, and our sexual preference. I cannot suddenly try to be a gay woman. I cannot change the code within my DNA.

I'm intrigued by the last paragraph of your post. Are you saying DNA shows sexual preference? It's surprising then, there aren't more LE themed updates on cases saying "DNA indicates the killer is a gay woman" etc. I'd love to read more about DNA determining sexual preference: do you have a link? I've seen several studies that show differences in brains around sexual identity. But never anything about DNA. In my opinion you actually can "try and be a gay woman". You may not succeed, but you can try, because it's a behaviour you have some decision making power in: you can choose who you have sex with. Without things like contact lenses, you can't wake up and decide your eyes are blue today when they are actually brown.


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[Deleted member 196796]

Ok, I have my cerebral CPU overclocked today. I have seen more theories of cat fishing or the girls possibly meeting up with someone. With that said here are a few things that have come to mind.

The last snapchat pics by LG was one of AW on the bridge ( no one else seen) and then the last pic of just the bridge looking south to north as the girls appear to on off of the bridge on the south end. Again no one else in sight. Now from what has been stated the times of these photos were around 2:07pm.


So the girls are hanging out right there at the south end of the bridge for 20-30 minutes? Were the girls actually waiting to meet someone? LE states BG was on the scene around or at 2:30pm. 2:30? What a convenient time for a meeting. You know most meeting times or at the top of the hour or on the half hour, right?


So let’s look at it this way. It’s 2:30pm and let’s say it is meeting time and Libby realizes here comes someone and it’s the ONLY person coming across the bridge around 2:30pm BG is too far away to make out any detail so Libby gets her phone out and uses the video with the zoom as an optic to get a closer look of BG. Let’s all think about the image of BG. There is nothing in that still captured image that I interpret as a threat. No exposed weapons such as guns, knives or even a taser. Body language? I see no aggressive stances and not even an aggressive gait simply based on BG has his hands in his pockets which usually displays a laid back stroll. BG is somewhat trying to disguise himself or cover up his appearance. Maybe he is trying to get as close to the girls as possible before they realize he is not who they are expecting. I see nothing other than a man out for a walk just like the girls. But…..the meeting time and the only person around on the bridge the girls realize this is not who they were expecting to meet. After Libby zoomed in on BG for a closer look is when the flag went up and the girls are alarmed.


The girls are smart and maybe thought that since they would be together it would be safe to meet someone they have been socializing online. Now in BG’s advantage, he knows where he was meeting one or both of them, more than likely both. How much time in advance did he know we don’t know. Let’s say he has time to recon the area not just once but multiple times. He had a very precise plan and knew the area very well. Based on the audio clip and some opinions based on some of the sounds Confusion stated it could have been the noise of LG’s jeans rubbing the phone mic in her pocket. Let’s say it’s possible and so we hear walking before BG says, “Down the Hill”. How could this be if it is assumed the hill referred to is the hill right at the south end of the bridge? Did the girls actually get nervous and started heading back across the bridge south to north and BG gained control of them on the bridge? He get’s the girls at gun point and forces them to walk back to the south end of the bridge and when arriving to the end of the bridge he tells them to go down the hill. If there were someone else already under the bridge down the hill, I assume the girls would have known before BG’s arrival.


911 wasn’t dialed because there wasn’t an immediate threat until it was too late. If there was a previous encounter with BG I am thinking the girls would have called somebody and BG’s cover is blown. They didn’t run because again they didn’t have a chance to run or scream. Once down the hill they realize the seriousness of their situation they are in and the fight for survival takes place.


How long did it take for local LE to call in the FBI? LE mentioned they considered foul play based on the positioning of the bodies. This is when IMO they recognized what type of a killer they were dealing with and called the Feds. The positioning of the bodies is part of a SK signature. Why did 6000 billboards get lit up nationwide? BG has been on the FBI radar for sometime now based on his signature? BG is not a RSO because there has been no DNA match. BG is not a local or family member or I would think he would have been identified. Experienced SK for the fact it was broad day light and 2 victims. He’s bold and wants more of a thrill.

 

[Maplesyrup]

Just to add a layer of intrigue to you thoughts, think about the risk associated, as well, with property owners at the south end of the bridge being home/outside on that unseasonably warm day (they are retired) and RL not meandering through his property, tending to his horses, whatever. Did he/they know that the one house was vacated (I could be wrong, but heard they are snowbirds). And what were the thoughts he/they had about RL?

It feels very mission-driven to me.

So if we have neighbors in the immediate vicinity and the possibility that they could appear outdoors at any time, how could he possibly feel safe to carry out his sick plan in its entirety with NO fear of being interrupted? I can only imagine that an evil mind like his must have a game plan in place and a series of situations he sought to create with his victims. That type of evil will make necessary plans to not be interrupted. If he was this careful about stalking them, then surely he had a place arranged to carry out his plan, and it is hard for me to imagine it was in the middle to the woods on a bright February day with no foliage on the trees for cover and to deaden the sound of voices carrying across the hills and valley. I am now in the camp that says he moved the girls to a predetermined location very near the site where they were found. I think it was at that secondary site that he did whatever he did to those poor precious souls. As far as returning them? I believe that was a "necessary" part of his plan and was in place all along from the start. He would do what he did, and return them to the area where he took them. I still say that railroad bridge [or maybe even the creek] was an essential part of his original design. He thought it all through. There must be something symbolic about the water or the bridge that is central to what he did to them and WHY he chose that area. He may have wanted two girls. If he catfished one he may have asked her to bring a friend with her because his "friend" was coming along leaving poor Libby and Abby to think they were meeting boys their own age to socialize, chat, throw rocks in the creek, take photos, hang out, whatever. All IMO.

 

[Ghosthunter]

This video illustrates the actual procedure used to analyze the cellphone. Therefore in my opinion it proves LE has at least one of the two (depending if Abby had a cellphone or not).

Delphi segment begins @1:35
Indiana Computer Crimes Against Children Taskforce Assisting In Delphi Murders Investigation
http://www.wow.com/video/590202f5955a31380f55a1aa

Both scenarios are possible. The video demonstrates the process if a phone is available. There wasn't a definitive answer as to how they retrieved the data from Libby's phone.. Its possible you're right and I agree its likely but I still think the phone wasnt recovered. I don't have a rationale for my thoughts on that. Thanks for your reply.

 

[Bird of Paradise]

Please provide a link for the sentence I bolded. I've never seen LE make a statement about the body positions.
I will link below what I have seen in MSM.

Some of the answers to your other questions are within the WS site. There is also a scanner thread you can access.

In a subsequent news conference, authorities said the bodies had yet to be positively identified and could not confirm if they were German and Williams.

Police noted, however, that foul play likely was a factor in the deaths.

http://www.jconline.com/story/news/...eens-found-dead-what-we-know-so-far/97985148/

Ok, I have my cerebral CPU overclocked today. I have seen more theories of cat fishing or the girls possibly meeting up with someone. With that said here are a few things that have come to mind.

The last snapchat pics by LG was one of AW on the bridge ( no one else seen) and then the last pic of just the bridge looking south to north as the girls appear to on off of the bridge on the south end. Again no one else in sight. Now from what has been stated the times of these photos were around 2:07pm.


So the girls are hanging out right there at the south end of the bridge for 20-30 minutes? Were the girls actually waiting to meet someone? LE states BG was on the scene around or at 2:30pm. 2:30? What a convenient time for a meeting. You know most meeting times or at the top of the hour or on the half hour, right?


So let’s look at it this way. It’s 2:30pm and let’s say it is meeting time and Libby realizes here comes someone and it’s the ONLY person coming across the bridge around 2:30pm BG is too far away to make out any detail so Libby gets her phone out and uses the video with the zoom as an optic to get a closer look of BG. Let’s all think about the image of BG. There is nothing in that still captured image that I interpret as a threat. No exposed weapons such as guns, knives or even a taser. Body language? I see no aggressive stances and not even an aggressive gait simply based on BG has his hands in his pockets which usually displays a laid back stroll. BG is somewhat trying to disguise himself or cover up his appearance. Maybe he is trying to get as close to the girls as possible before they realize he is not who they are expecting. I see nothing other than a man out for a walk just like the girls. But…..the meeting time and the only person around on the bridge the girls realize this is not who they were expecting to meet. After Libby zoomed in on BG for a closer look is when the flag went up and the girls are alarmed.


The girls are smart and maybe thought that since they would be together it would be safe to meet someone they have been socializing online. Now in BG’s advantage, he knows where he was meeting one or both of them, more than likely both. How much time in advance did he know we don’t know. Let’s say he has time to recon the area not just once but multiple times. He had a very precise plan and knew the area very well. Based on the audio clip and some opinions based on some of the sounds Confusion stated it could have been the noise of LG’s jeans rubbing the phone mic in her pocket. Let’s say it’s possible and so we hear walking before BG says, “Down the Hill”. How could this be if it is assumed the hill referred to is the hill right at the south end of the bridge? Did the girls actually get nervous and started heading back across the bridge south to north and BG gained control of them on the bridge? He get’s the girls at gun point and forces them to walk back to the south end of the bridge and when arriving to the end of the bridge he tells them to go down the hill. If there were someone else already under the bridge down the hill, I assume the girls would have known before BG’s arrival.


911 wasn’t dialed because there wasn’t an immediate threat until it was too late. If there was a previous encounter with BG I am thinking the girls would have called somebody and BG’s cover is blown. They didn’t run because again they didn’t have a chance to run or scream. Once down the hill they realize the seriousness of their situation they are in and the fight for survival takes place.


How long did it take for local LE to call in the FBI? LE mentioned they considered foul play based on the positioning of the bodies. This is when IMO they recognized what type of a killer they were dealing with and called the Feds. The positioning of the bodies is part of a SK signature. Why did 6000 billboards get lit up nationwide? BG has been on the FBI radar for sometime now based on his signature? BG is not a RSO because there has been no DNA match. BG is not a local or family member or I would think he would have been identified. Experienced SK for the fact it was broad day light and 2 victims. He’s bold and wants more of a thrill.

 

[Jennifer17]

I think the catfishing on SM would have been one of the first lines of inquiry. I am sure every site they were on has been thoroughly searched.

 

[passepartout]

I have questions that someone who is familiar with the bridge area could answer. Say he marched them down the hill [or they took off running after starting down the hill] and they in fact crossed the creek in the area under the bridge and he caught them [is it shallow enough right there to cross?]...would they be visible to someone on the bridge as they walked along the creek in the woods toward the cemetery?

Yes. Even more so in winter with no foliage. However, you would have to be on the bridge itself to see the land along the creek. You can't see anything to your left from the very beginning of the railroad ties or from the trail. You can see a section of the creek to your right. To see anything, you have to walk out on the bridge.

This is what I am thinking....he had to KNOW if anyone else was in the woods or on the trail. He had to be watching, maybe with binoculars, and knew how long it took to walk from the parking area others have referenced...to the entrance of the bridge. If he knew prior to his attack that no one was in the woods [because he spent time that day keeping track of who was there and if... and when... those people left] then he would know he had "x" number of minutes from when he started after them and grabbed them...to when he absolutely HAD to be out of sight of the bridge area. IMO he plotted this out with careful precision. He was hunting that day and had his well thought out plan in place. I think pure luck [on his part] played a huge part. He may have catfished the girls and knew they would be there....but the variable he couldn't control was other people who just happened to show up to go for a walk. Short of him closing off the trail entrance with a sign "closed for repairs" or yellow "caution tape" I'm not sure how he could stop other visitors from entering the trail. Random thoughts and all IMO.

If he nabbed them quickly at the south end of the bridge and immediately ordered them down the hill, then even someone just arriving at the north end of the bridge might not see anything. It's a good distance away; you can see that from the videos that people have posted. But you would have to move quickly and keep moving because if someone walked out on the bridge, you could be seen.

All this is dependent on knowing the terrain well. As I said before, it's a confusing layout with the access roads and the winding creek.

 

[Steleheart]

Please provide a link for the sentence I bolded. I've never seen LE make a statement about the body positions.
I will link below what I have seen in MSM.

Some of the answers to your other questions are within the WS site. There is also a scanner thread you can access.

In a subsequent news conference, authorities said the bodies had yet to be positively identified and could not confirm if they were German and Williams.

Police noted, however, that foul play likely was a factor in the deaths.

http://www.jconline.com/story/news/...eens-found-dead-what-we-know-so-far/97985148/

Not the OP but just interjecting. I have seen the word "positioning" a lot but never see a link.
Closest I have seen is ;

http://people.com/crime/abigail-williams-liberty-german-slain-indiana-teens-5-things/
“We are investigating this as a crime scene,” Indiana State Police Sgt. Kim Riley said at a press conference last Tuesday, adding that the “way the bodies were found” led them to believe the girls were killed."

I always took that as the condition rather than orientation. JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

Both scenarios are possible. The video demonstrates the process if a phone is available. There wasn't a definitive answer as to how they retrieved the data from Libby's phone.. Its possible you're right and I agree its likely but I still think the phone wasnt recovered. I don't have a rationale for my thoughts on that. Thanks for your reply.

Curious then, for what other reason do you think the Indiana Computer Crimes Against Children Taskforce was involved, other than what was stated? Googling the name, they hold a significant mandate.

 

[ab01]

Not the OP but just interjecting. I have seen the word "positioning" a lot but never see a link.
Closest I have seen is ;

http://people.com/crime/abigail-williams-liberty-german-slain-indiana-teens-5-things/
“We are investigating this as a crime scene,” Indiana State Police Sgt. Kim Riley said at a press conference last Tuesday, adding that the “way the bodies were found” led them to believe the girls were killed."

I always took that as the condition rather than orientation. JMO

This has always been my interpretation of it as well, without trying to read to much into it. I believe that is what LE meant. So often we try to make more out of statements that LE have made. MOO

 

[Evania]

Not the OP but just interjecting. I have seen the word "positioning" a lot but never see a link.
Closest I have seen is ;

http://people.com/crime/abigail-williams-liberty-german-slain-indiana-teens-5-things/
“We are investigating this as a crime scene,” Indiana State Police Sgt. Kim Riley said at a press conference last Tuesday, adding that the “way the bodies were found” led them to believe the girls were killed."

I always took that as the condition rather than orientation. JMO

I think it may have been mentioned at the very first press conference, the day they were found. There's a video in the media links/timeline....I think that may be the one.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Burnt Toast]

I wonder if the family has considered bringing in an outside investigator.

an investigator as in one person? i don't even know where they would start. they wouldn't have any access to the evidence collected from the CS or during probable cause search warrants. They would not have access to the results of the forensic testing or the list of people that LE has cleared, and most importantly they would not have access to the full video or audio made by libby. there is so much that would not be available to them. they would have to start from square one.

 

[SomeoneElse333]

As I was putting my children on the bus today, I thought to myself "who would know that school was out?" Then I thought~~Bus Driver~~

I don't recall reading anyone mentioning school bus drivers from the area. Has that been mentioned and I just missed it?

I've​ also wondered if they took a school bus or public transportation to get to and from school.

Did they do that or ride share? Maybe they walked or biked?

 

[SomeoneElse333]

I wonder if the family has considered bringing in an outside investigator.

IMO, I don't think the family is ready to consider something like that. I think families turn to independent investigators when they are frustrated with the local handling of the case. From what I can see, A&L's families seem quite supportive of law enforcement and the efforts they're making on this case.

The above is just my opinion.

 

[Molecularblonde]

Not the OP but just interjecting. I have seen the word "positioning" a lot but never see a link.
Closest I have seen is ;

http://people.com/crime/abigail-williams-liberty-german-slain-indiana-teens-5-things/
“We are investigating this as a crime scene,” Indiana State Police Sgt. Kim Riley said at a press conference last Tuesday, adding that the “way the bodies were found” led them to believe the girls were killed."

I always took that as the condition rather than orientation. JMO

steleheart....
when I read that quote I thought that it was meant that the bodies were *positioned* in an odd way. Why do you think it means the "condition" of the bodies rather than how the bodies appeared in the CS? I'm a fan of your posts and would like your opinion.

I felt like positioning of the bodies meant the girls' bodies were positioned in such an odd way that LE ruled out an accident. As if they way the bodies appeared the did if not die of natural causes, I.e. fallen or stumbled....