IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #60

[Wild Rose]

Sorry, as my posting has had been one of the last in previous thread 59, I want to repeat my question. What I´m dealing with is, wether or not possible screams of the girls at the creek may or may not been heard by hikers on the trail at the same time, as acoustic noise from the creek in general could perhaps not reach the higher up situated trail.

What do you think?

Thank you for answers.

IMO I would wonder about noises from water and wind muffling any sounds. One of my friends in town, on a windy day, jumped out of his truck on a windy day in full view of a deer and circled a long ways around and snuck up and grabbed it by the tail!! The deer never heard him. Since that story, I noticed animals are very tense on windy days, even the bigger animals. Wind can muddle sounds. BTW, off topic, I also read that the toughest night is a full moon night for many animals like mice, rabbits...and owls love the full moon nights. IMO I do think he was hunting, he appears in pic looking head on, next shot averting his eyes...covert, sneaky. I think he watched them prior. I think it was very much planned.

 

[Crwhitlock]

Good thinking, nice catch. I don't think anyone would have accessed the recording prior to the discovery of the bodies. Had the parents or anyone gotten a hold of that recording I think the area would have been flooded with LE immediately, that night. Probably a tactical group with thermal imaging goggles and scopes as to not destroy evidence in the dark but they would have been out there immediately. They would have sectioned the whole area off immediately as well, volunteers wouldn't have been conducting the search, I think it would have been all LE had they known what they were dealing with.

I do think the calling off of the search the night before was a tragic mistake. Even if the girls hadn't been met with foul play, it was February in Indiana. I think they would have had a tough time surviving the night out there in the woods with no shelter or way to keep warm even if they were just lost. Which really makes me question the decision to call off the search at dark. It gets dark here in February around 6 pm which means by the time searchers got started they probably only had an hour or so to work. I think dogs could have found them very easily also, regardless of the dark. It might not have changed anything but I know rumors are one of the girls survived most of the night and had only died within hours of being found. How much truth there is to that who knows. It would have given LE a 15 hour jump on BG regardless. And if the girls had really just been lost it would have very likely saved their lives.

Hindsight is 20/20, I just don't understand why they called off the search when they thought the girls were lost out there in the cold.
I suppose they might not have actually thought the girls were lost out there, they might have figured 12-13 year old girls probably had just gone to a friends house, bf's house, something.

Unless/until this thing goes to trial we won't know much of anything that went on. if/when it goes to trial some pretty horrific stuff is probably going to be brought to light also.That recording will likely have to be unveiled during the course of a trial. I don't even want to imagine what that contains. Life changing horror I'm

 

[Peace777]

I had asked about the white truck in the woods on the 14th in previous thread, I found a clip on Youtube and it shows a white truck with some searchers (1s seen searching in the water on the 14th) riding in the back of it. .44sec. mark
[video=youtube;s91Q1WRuN3E]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s91Q1WRuN3E[/video]

 

[Burnt Toast]

Good thinking, nice catch. I don't think anyone would have accessed the recording prior to the discovery of the bodies. Had the parents or anyone gotten a hold of that recording I think the area would have been flooded with LE immediately, that night. Probably a tactical group with thermal imaging goggles and scopes as to not destroy evidence in the dark but they would have been out there immediately. They would have sectioned the whole area off immediately as well, volunteers wouldn't have been conducting the search, I think it would have been all LE had they known what they were dealing with.

I do think the calling off of the search the night before was a tragic mistake. Even if the girls hadn't been met with foul play, it was February in Indiana. I think they would have had a tough time surviving the night out there in the woods with no shelter or way to keep warm even if they were just lost. Which really makes me question the decision to call off the search at dark. It gets dark here in February around 6 pm which means by the time searchers got started they probably only had an hour or so to work. I think dogs could have found them very easily also, regardless of the dark. It might not have changed anything but I know rumors are one of the girls survived most of the night and had only died within hours of being found. How much truth there is to that who knows. It would have given LE a 15 hour jump on BG regardless. And if the girls had really just been lost it would have very likely saved their lives.

Hindsight is 20/20, I just don't understand why they called off the search when they thought the girls were lost out there in the cold.
I suppose they might not have actually thought the girls were lost out there, they might have figured 12-13 year old girls probably had just gone to a friends house, bf's house, something.

Unless/until this thing goes to trial we won't know much of anything that went on. if/when it goes to trial some pretty horrific stuff is probably going to be brought to light also.That recording will likely have to be unveiled during the course of a trial. I don't even want to imagine what that contains. Life changing horror I'm sure.

and if there is a plea bargain we are likely to learn very little on how things unfolded..

 

[Wild Rose]

I can understand that. Not all SKs are totally organized or disorganized. Many have tendencies of both. I agree he was definitely out there that day "trolling" for victims. Something he probably spends the vast majority of his time doing. He wasn't bird watching and decided to put the binoculars down and kill some kids. I don't think a totally organized killer would have done what BG did though. It was extremely brazen and risky. Broad daylight in a totally visible area. It was simply luck no one came along and saw him in the middle of it. Granted he could have scouted and analyzed how many people came by on an average monday afternoon and decided the odds of someone passing by were very small. A full abduction would have been the route a completely organized killer would have taken I think. There was an access road directly below that bridge, getting them into a vehicle would have been very easy. Had he done that the girls likely would be missing persons to this day.

Lots to think about here, but if he is organized, then he meant to do this in broad daylight, out in the open, with not one but two victims, so sad - bless those friends, and leave them. He has to be very calculating.

 

[Burnt Toast]

Good thinking, nice catch. I don't think anyone would have accessed the recording prior to the discovery of the bodies. Had the parents or anyone gotten a hold of that recording I think the area would have been flooded with LE immediately, that night. Probably a tactical group with thermal imaging goggles and scopes as to not destroy evidence in the dark but they would have been out there immediately. They would have sectioned the whole area off immediately as well, volunteers wouldn't have been conducting the search, I think it would have been all LE had they known what they were dealing with.

I do think the calling off of the search the night before was a tragic mistake. Even if the girls hadn't been met with foul play, it was February in Indiana. I think they would have had a tough time surviving the night out there in the woods with no shelter or way to keep warm even if they were just lost. Which really makes me question the decision to call off the search at dark. It gets dark here in February around 6 pm which means by the time searchers got started they probably only had an hour or so to work. I think dogs could have found them very easily also, regardless of the dark. It might not have changed anything but I know rumors are one of the girls survived most of the night and had only died within hours of being found. How much truth there is to that who knows. It would have given LE a 15 hour jump on BG regardless. And if the girls had really just been lost it would have very likely saved their lives.

Hindsight is 20/20, I just don't understand why they called off the search when they thought the girls were lost out there in the cold.
I suppose they might not have actually thought the girls were lost out there, they might have figured 12-13 year old girls probably had just gone to a friends house, bf's house, something.

Unless/until this thing goes to trial we won't know much of anything that went on. if/when it goes to trial some pretty horrific stuff is probably going to be brought to light also.That recording will likely have to be unveiled during the course of a trial. I don't even want to imagine what that contains. Life changing horror I'm

the majority of all missing children are found. only one in 10,000 are found dead. those girls probably knew the area and trails like the back of their hand. i find it hard to believe that they could get "lost". LE likely thought they were runaways. however, their families knew better and that is why they continued to search into the night.

 

[Wild Rose]

Just googled up careers for analytical people, do not take offense please, I am one of these too...civil engineers, actuaries, mathematicians, financial planners, human resource staff. There were others but in the same type of fields, like accountants. IMO previously thought to be a recent parolee, now I am inclined to think not. Thinking now calculating enough to not ring anyone's alarm bells ever. All my opinion.

 

[thinkitover]

Sorry, as my posting has had been one of the last in previous thread 59, I want to repeat my question. What I´m dealing with is, wether or not possible screams of the girls at the creek may or may not been heard by hikers on the trail at the same time, as acoustic noise from the creek in general could perhaps not reach the higher up situated trail.

What do you think?

Thank you for answers.

No way to say this gently but I think it is possible he gagged them both immediately to prevent noise. I believe he came prepared and was out of there in an hour.JMO

 

[Brighty]

Your keen observance is recognized. Several of us have wondered about the FBIs early presence. If a family member was able to access Liberty's data via a cloud, why call off the search at midnight? Why did a family member state that the girls may have gone to Abby's brother's home? We are missing pieces of the puzzle and this is one of them.

In recent years the FBI has been getting far more involved in child abductions that don't involve custody issues and getting involved right away. I think the reason they were involved early is it was for some reason believed to be a possible stranger or other than family abduction.

The confusing part is there was speculation the first night that they possibly decided to go see one girl's (mother?) family in another state.

I am not sure who or why the determination was made that it was likely a stranger abduction but I do think that is why the FBI was there early on.

 

[Crwhitlock]

the majority of all missing children are found. only one in 10,000 are found dead. those girls probably knew the area and trails like the back of their hand. i find it hard to believe that they could get "lost". LE likely thought they were runaways. however, their families knew better and that is why they continued to search into the night.

LE held a press conference the night the girls disappeared and stated, we don't believe foul play is involved, our only concern is them being lost in the cold. That is what they said, it's not my opinion.

 

[Crwhitlock]

and if there is a plea bargain we are likely to learn very little on how things unfolded..

Yes, I said if a trial were to take place. A trial would not happen if a plea deal was reached.

 

[St. Anthony2017]

In recent years the FBI has been getting far more involved in child abductions that don't involve custody issues and getting involved right away. I think the reason they were involved early is it was for some reason believed to be a possible stranger or other than family abduction.

The confusing part is there was speculation the first night that they possibly decided to go see one girl's (mother?) family in another state.

I am not sure who or why the determination was made that it was likely a stranger abduction but I do think that is why the FBI was there early on.

I don't have a quote but iirc it was said that an FBI Agent lived in Delphi and was instrumental in getting the FBI on board quickly. He also participated in the searches it was said.

 

[Wild Rose]

I just asked my husband (who doesn't really know about Websleuths), who is the more calculating sportsman, a hunter or a fisherman? He said a fisherman because a hunter sits in a stand and waits for the deer to come to him and a fisherman will have to go find the fish. Just wondered about that. Interesting to think about here.

 

[Burnt Toast]

Just following along a bit
My theory so far is that he doesn't live in the area or he would definitely be recognized by now. So if he's not in the area, how did he know about the bridge? Retaliation of some sort? and How did he commit this with passerby's out there? Was there a lookout? Just musings.



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we don't know that he has not been recognized. i think he has. there is a reason why LE is silent. they have been that way since the third week in march when they drastically, and suddenly reduced the number of LE and FBI working the case. it went from 200 to a few dozen. to me, that speaks volumes. there also seems to be no pleas for help. when we do hear about "tips" it is some canned response when asked or at the end of a news article. it has been eons since they have played the "down the hill" audio.

 

[Wild Rose]

Is there a FBI field office near where Lyric and Elizabeth were killed? Just wondering out loud.

 

[Crwhitlock]

because they "snapped". i don't think they woke up that day with the intention on committing a double homicide. i think their day started like any other day. i think there was a confrontation that escalated into something horrible. i don't think they are what we would typically consider a sociopath. they are likely someone that no one would ever suspect. if the picture of him was taken at 2:30. i would not be surprised if they whole encounter took less than a half and hour, and maybe even less. i think they were likely dead within minutes of arriving at the CS. i think it was a local who was very familiar with the area and trails. i think the girls likely knew him and because of that the were not scared enough to dial 911. they may have expected a strange encounter, but not one that ended up with them both dead. i just don't see a out of town stranger as the culprit.

i can also see the following: accident, murder, cover up.

I think he absolutely woke up that day with murder on his mind, like he probably does most days. This is a predator with a dangerously warped pathology. I'm not sure what "snapped" means or how it would occur with children he didn't know, but normal men don't wake up one day and just happen to find themselves in a remote woods killing two 12 years old girls. That's not an accident. How would an adult man end up in a random deadly confrontation with two 12 year old girls out of the blue. Yes murders happen every day that aren't sexually motivated. Those are murders that occur between peers and people that know each other. Not with strangers. Especially not with strangers when one is an adult man and the victims are female children.

I think the few facts we have serve to validate this. In the recording the man is calm, calculated. Ordering them off the trail and into the woods where people won't be around. He's not yelling at them nor are they at him, nothing to indicate an altercation. The whole basis of the recording is that Libby turned her recorder on when she sensed they were in danger. The man was still approaching when she turned the recorder on, so she felt they were in danger before any kind of altercation could have occurred. Her spider sense went off when she sensed a predator approaching.

 

[St. Anthony2017]

we don't know that he has not been recognized. i think he has. there is a reason why LE is silent. they have been that way since the third week in march when they drastically, and suddenly reduced the number of LE and FBI working the case. it went from 200 to a few dozen. to me, that speaks volumes. there also seems to be no pleas for help. when we do hear about "tips" it is some canned response when asked or at the end of a news article. it has been eons since they have played the "down the hill" audio.

Imo the number of LE and FBI has not been reduced. There are a lot of unsolved murders of children and if this is a SK and they have DNA they may be at their own offices looking at other cases that might be related. When this is all over I think several cases will be solved and a SK will be in custody.

 

[Bird of Paradise]

So well said. :loveyou:

I have asked in the past if anyone could provide a link to a random man who killed two young teen girls because he 'snapped' or they made him angry. Two young teens in a remote area. Still waiting for that link.

I think he absolutely woke up that day with murder on his mind, like he probably does most days. This is a predator with a dangerously warped pathology. I'm not sure what "snapped" means or how it would occur with children he didn't know, but normal men don't wake up one day and just happen to find themselves in a remote woods killing two 12 years old girls. That's not an accident. How would an adult man end up in a random deadly confrontation with two 12 year old girls out of the blue. Yes murders happen every day that aren't sexually motivated. Those are murders that occur between peers and people that know each other. Not with strangers. Especially not with strangers when one is an adult man and the victims are female children.

I think the few facts we have serve to validate this. In the recording the man is calm, calculated. Ordering them off the trail and into the woods where people won't be around. He's not yelling at them nor are they at him, nothing to indicate an altercation. The whole basis of the recording is that Libby turned her recorder on when she sensed they were in danger. The man was still approaching when she turned the recorder on, so she felt they were in danger before any kind of altercation could have occurred. Her spider sense went off when she sensed a predator approaching.

 

[Wild Rose]

So well said. :loveyou:

I have asked in the past if anyone could provide a link to a random man who killed two young teen girls because he 'snapped' or they made him angry. Two young teens in a remote area. Still waiting for that link.

No link, but defense instructors do tell women to do whatever they have to do to stay alive with a rapist because you may want to avoid angering a rapist if you have to, to stay alive.

 

[Hazelnutty]

If LE does have a notion of who murdered these girls, what would their surveillance tactics look like while they gathered sufficient proof? Gps monitor? Can they tap cell phones? Cctv camera set near the home or business?

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