IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #60

[MistyWaters]

OMG Are you telling me they were dropped off at the Trail head. No friggin wonder I can't make head nor tail of anything. I have been looking at it backwards. Can I confirm the Trail Head is the land with what appears to be a turning point round concrete looking place in it. . Sorry from across the pond person taking an interest in this case and getting bearings.

KR
Reacher

LE hasn't released concise information to that regard. I presume it's because the homicides occurred after they were dropped off and before they were picked up and the emphasis is on the crime occurring near the rail bridge. However they did ask for information from anyone noticing vehicles parked at the Trail Head between 1 and 5 that day.


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[MistyWaters]

Sort of saying "we know what you did next, *advertiser censored***hole" .

Yeah, like that.

One thing that always puzzles me is why Libby didn't have an opportunity to place a 911 call or text for help.

That's one of the reasons I lean away from a sole stranger predator with a motive of SA in mind attempting to take control of both girls. That's one of the safety precautions mentioned, that girls not be alone as SA motivated criminals generally seek out a single female because in doing so, that's the means by which they get their perverse gratification.

But if one of the girls recognized the perp, they may not have been as initially alarmed. But still, for a SA theory I can't imagine a scenario where Libby wouldn't have used her cellphone to call for help.




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[MistyWaters]

All I really know is it is at the North end of the bridge somewhere? Do we know the exact drop off point? Is it near the Mears property entrance that is now closed off I seem to recall? The official trail begins in town doesn't it?

The entire Delphi trail system is 10 miles, iirc about 2 miles of that is rural. It ends at the Monon bridge and the bridge is now blocked off while funds are being raised for its repair.

"The bridge, which was built in 1891, is currently owned by CSX, but the railroad vacated it in 1987."
http://www.theindychannel.com/news/...landmarks-to-repair-delphis-monon-high-bridge

 

[Nick_1]

Pardon me, what was this in response to if anything? This thread has gone wonky tonight. :waitasec:

That's my point. It wasn't in reply to anything.

 

[Shiressleuth]

Yeah, like that.

One thing that always puzzles me is why Libby didn't have an opportunity to place a 911 call or text for help.

That's one of the reasons I lean away from a sole stranger predator with a motive of SA in mind attempting to take control of both girls. That's one of the safety precautions mentioned, that girls not be alone as SA motivated criminals generally seek out a single female because in doing so, that's the means by which they get their perverse gratification.

But if one of the girls recognized the perp, they may not have been as initially alarmed. But still, for a SA theory I can't imagine a scenario where Libby wouldn't have used her cellphone to call for help.




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Unless you're both running away at speed and you're phone is hidden in your pocket maybe?

 

[WebSight]

That's really fascinating! Thank you, every crime case needs a person like you with the keen ability to put abstract thoughts into visual reality.

The reason this conversation arose again goes back to the dark edge area on the left side of one of the BG photos released by LE. Then discussion of the possibility that while hiking, Abby and Libby separated for a bit, for whatever reason. And LE have cropped the frame to remove the image of Abby who was near BG, perhaps walking along either with or near him.

I don't know that I strongly prescribe to that theory but if so, it's certainly very interesting to think about a possible sequence of events that may have transpired.



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:blushing: You are too kind, honestly, but thank you.

I hope you popped over to the image thread to see the actual pictures. I think that having all the scenery around shows even better just how much would have been cropped out to get the final BG photo.

Yes, Libby's jacket. I was staunchly on that team for the longest time. I used to think that BG was ready to accost her. I have changed that stance somewhat. If it is Abby I lean more toward her being closer to Libby than BG. I want to fiddle more with the photo though and I may change my mind again. But, yes, something looks cropped out. imo, of course.

 

[MistyWaters]

Unless you're both running away at speed and you're phone is hidden in your pocket maybe?

Maybe but in the theory of a lone predator with intent of SA, he's unlikely to expect to capture both girls who are fleeing. Worse if they run opposite directions, then what? If this case is proven to involve SA, then I think more than one perp was involved.

 

[Shiressleuth]

LE hasn't released concise information to that regard. I presume it's because the homicides occurred after they were dropped off and before they were picked up and the emphasis is on the crime occurring near the rail bridge. However they did ask for information from anyone noticing vehicles parked at the Trail Head between 1 and 5 that day.


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Sorry to be harping on but where exactly did LE want this info from? Where is this Trail Head and parking area that they refer to? Are there several "trail heads" as it is 10 miles long? Is the north end of the bridge considered to be a Trail Head? ie access to the trail? Is this possibly where the girls were dropped off and therefore also due to be collected from. I'm sure the girls did not hike the whole 10 miles but for witnesses to come forward they have to know where this particular Trail head is actually located. This vagueness about the Trail head and where they were dropped off does not make sense to me at the moment .

 

[Shiressleuth]

Maybe but in the theory of a lone predator with intent of SA, he's unlikely to expect to capture both girls who are fleeing. Worse if they run opposite directions, then what? If this case is proven to involve SA, then I think more than one perp was involved.

Even if no SA then I am thinking two perps to be able to overcome and kill these girls.

 

[WebSight]

Jumping off from the project I just did, I took it one step further and used the comparable sized BG and put him in the spot where I originally had my daughter (at the 70 ft mark).

For the first time I could really "see" BG 70 feet away. Putting him in that place rather than my daughter was eye-opening for me to understand the dynamics of what was happening and how fast it might have occured.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?336769-IN-IMAGE-discussion-re-Abigail-Williams-13-amp-Liberty-German-14-Delphi&p=13406887#post13406887

From the post on the image thread (forgive me for quoting myself - working on two threads is hard work!):

He does not appear to be interacting with them in any way at this point. He is not even looking at them. He does not look particularly menacing. And, at this point you cannot see anything he might be hiding that would scare you.

... at the 70 foot mark, BG is very close, much closer than it looks here. If the girls were still on that bridge when Libby began filming, there was no time to do much of anything.

In our experiment I was shocked at how close it felt and how I could see for the first time, that except for trying to make a run for it, they were doomed. If he made his intentions known in the next ten feet, those girls had no time. At 70 feet there was no calling 911 or mom, texting, nothing. Running or filming were the only options that we could see.

I hope some of you will click over to see the photo and I hope that it helps in any little way possible to make sense of the timeline of events.

These are just my findings, through messing with the photos, and of course must be my conclusions only, moo.

 

[Maplesyrup]

I thought RL at 77 traverses it ok though. Were they approaching from cemetery direction?

My theory assumes the set of footprints that led to searcher finding them is from cemetery to CS. This could be a wrong assumption but we don't (AFAIK) have any info confirming or denying that ATM.

I don't know how wet the ground was (muddy?) on the hill on RL's property on Feb 13 and 14? Also, I am thinking if a searcher started walking that he probably followed the creek edge toward RL's property (started at high bridge and walked along the creek in the direction of RL's property). To me, the creek edge would be the most likely location of easily noticed footprints. A professional tracker could spot so much more on a hill or through trees or grass or leaf cover. IMO, for a "regular" searcher on foot...I say the prints were in the mud/sand of the creek. I would guess the searcher saw foot prints and assuming they looked fresh, the searcher followed them into the woods to where the bodies were found. Now...since LE said a set of foot prints were found, that sounds to me like one person's footprints...or could LE have been vague and actually the set of prints was a *group* of prints belonging to 3 people? All IMO.

 

[Crwhitlock]

Yeah, like that.

One thing that always puzzles me is why Libby didn't have an opportunity to place a 911 call or text for help.

That's one of the reasons I lean away from a sole stranger predator with a motive of SA in mind attempting to take control of both girls. That's one of the safety precautions mentioned, that girls not be alone as SA motivated criminals generally seek out a single female because in doing so, that's the means by which they get their perverse gratification.

But if one of the girls recognized the perp, they may not have been as initially alarmed. But still, for a SA theory I can't imagine a scenario where Libby wouldn't have used her cellphone to call for help.




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I believe the girls were initially alarmed. Thus turning her cellphone recorder on and trying to get him on the camera. This man had set off her spider sense but he had not yet engaged them. She either didn't feel calling 911 was necessary at that point, or she didn't think of it, who knows. It all happened very quickly. Once he did engage them and they realized they were in serious trouble, the opportunity to call 911 had passed.

My belief is that the girls had probably seen BG prior to him approaching them on the bridge. I would guess they had seen him when they were walking in at some point and he was behaving abnormally. Watching them, semi folllwing them, just acting in a manner that wasn't quite right. They likely just brushed it off as a weird guy and went on their way. Then, they're up on the bridge on the other end in a much more remote area, and they see him again. This time he's coming directly at them. At which point the girls sensed they were in danger, prompting Libby to turn the recorder on him.

When he reached them he probably pulled a gun on them almost immediately. From that point on they were totally under his control. Sadly had they run I highly doubt he would have shot either of them.

 

[Deleted member 189081]

Yeah, like that.

One thing that always puzzles me is why Libby didn't have an opportunity to place a 911 call or text for help.

That's one of the reasons I lean away from a sole stranger predator with a motive of SA in mind attempting to take control of both girls. That's one of the safety precautions mentioned, that girls not be alone as SA motivated criminals generally seek out a single female because in doing so, that's the means by which they get their perverse gratification.

But if one of the girls recognized the perp, they may not have been as initially alarmed. But still, for a SA theory I can't imagine a scenario where Libby wouldn't have used her cellphone to call for help.




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The trouble is we don't know what the <modsnip> did next nor do we know why (We only think we know)

However I find the idea below on the same wavelength as my own thoughts.

But if one of the girls recognized the perp, they may not have been as initially alarmed. But still, for a SA theory I can't imagine a scenario where Libby wouldn't have used her cellphone to call for help.​

Not sure what an SA theory is! but I certainly don't think it is impossible for one or both of the Girls to recognise the person on the bridge.

As to why Libby filmed well I don't come from Delphi or USA but looking at news reels previous to the girls disappearance there appeared to be a problem with a couple of Flashers on the Monon trail shortly before the girls disappeared. Please tell me there is only one Monon Trail in Delphi.

Apparently there were two of them acting independently. I am in no way blaming these people but in one of the many reports I read LE did say only if it was safe to do so take photos.I did notice the arrests 16th Feb 2017
http://fox59.com/2017/02/24/police-...eparate-flashing-incidents-along-monon-trail/

Hence why the girls were on alert to take video of anything unusual. That was my point.

KR
Reacher

 

[MistyWaters]

Sorry to be harping on but where exactly did LE want this info from? Where is this Trail Head and parking area that they refer to? Are there several "trail heads" as it is 10 miles long? Is the north end of the bridge considered to be a Trail Head? ie access to the trail? Is this possibly where the girls were dropped off and therefore also due to be collected from. I'm sure the girls did not hike the whole 10 miles but for witnesses to come forward they have to know where this particular Trail head is actually located. This vagueness about the Trail head and where they were dropped off does not make sense to me at the moment .

If one was familar with Delphi, I'm certain they'd know exactly what the Trail Head referred to. Considering the girls were dropped off at about 1pm but the crime occurred later than 2pm, I'm guessing LE doesn't consider it significant for the general public to be informed of any events that occurred earlier that day.

I can understand why it'd be nice if they'd provided a full narrative, somewhat like a murder mystery but that's totally unrealistic. LE is tasked in solving this crime, and they only release what they believe to be helpful in seeking tips or leads. That's just the way it is. MOO

 

[Evania]

Jumping off from the project I just did, I took it one step further and used the comparable sized BG and put him in the spot where I originally had my daughter (at the 70 ft mark).

For the first time I could really "see" BG 70 feet away. Putting him in that place rather than my daughter was eye-opening for me to understand the dynamics of what was happening and how fast it might have occured.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...erty-German-14-Delphi&p=13406767#post13406767

From the post on the image thread (forgive me for quoting myself - working on two threads is hard work!):

I hope some of you will click over to see the photo and I hope that it helps in any little way possible to make sense of the timeline of events.

These are just my findings, through messing with the photos, and of course must be my conclusions only, moo.

I really appreciate the efforts you have taken to test out how things may have transpired. It helps to see how things may have unfolded based on the few things we know. To me, they are very helpful!

Seriously, some of you guys just amaze me! [emoji847]


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[Deleted member 189081]

If one was familar with Delphi, I'm certain they'd know exactly what the Trail Head referred to. Considering the girls were dropped off at about 1pm but the crime occurred later than 2pm, I'm guessing LE doesn't consider it significant for the general public to be informed of any events that occurred earlier that day.

I can understand why it'd be nice if they'd provided a full narrative, somewhat like a murder mystery but that's totally unrealistic. LE is tasked in solving this crime, and they only release what they believe to be helpful in seeking tips or leads. That's just the way it is. MOO

Misty It was me that asked and no I don't come from the USA. So I was just asking for clarification. Many thanks for your response.

KR
Reacher

 

[Brighty]

<modsnip>

The post said, or intended to say prostitutes that arent, but have the appearance of being very young, looking like a child. The Perp is apparently drawn to young female children, so i think this is a good place to look.

I do think men that have an interest in young prostitutes should be checked out, that might lead to suspect. I personally think it was a serial killer that likely feeds off of the whole act from the hunt through to the kill but possibly might find he started with young prostitutes and was rough with them before moving to what he is doing now.

Many of the prostitutes that appear young truly are young and I am sure those that are attracted to that know where to find them.

"The average age at which girls first become victims of prostitution is 12 to 14. It is not only the girls on the streets who are affected; boys and transgender youth enter into prostitution between the ages of 11 and 13 on average.[SUP]9"

[/SUP]https://leb.fbi.gov/2011/march/human-sex-trafficking

 

[MistyWaters]

I believe the girls were initially alarmed. Thus turning her cellphone recorder on and trying to get him on the camera. This man had set off her spider sense but he had not yet engaged them. She either didn't feel calling 911 was necessary at that point, or she didn't think of it, who knows. It all happened very quickly. Once he did engage them and they realized they were in serious trouble, the opportunity to call 911 had passed.

My belief is that the girls had probably seen BG prior to him approaching them on the bridge. I would guess they had seen him when they were walking in at some point and he was behaving abnormally. Watching them, semi folllwing them, just acting in a manner that wasn't quite right. They likely just brushed it off as a weird guy and went on their way. Then, they're up on the bridge on the other end in a much more remote area, and they see him again. This time he's coming directly at them. At which point the girls sensed they were in danger, prompting Libby to turn the recorder on him.

When he reached them he probably pulled a gun on them almost immediately. From that point on they were totally under his control. Sadly had they run I highly doubt he would have shot either of them.

So much we don't know leaves us with a lot of if's and maybe's.

But if the homicide occurred where the bodies were found to me it reeks of an execution style killing. Especially so if they were under control of the perp/s at the time the words "go down the hill" were spoken.


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[Evania]

I believe the girls were initially alarmed. Thus turning her cellphone recorder on and trying to get him on the camera. This man had set off her spider sense but he had not yet engaged them. She either didn't feel calling 911 was necessary at that point, or she didn't think of it, who knows. It all happened very quickly. Once he did engage them and they realized they were in serious trouble, the opportunity to call 911 had passed.

My belief is that the girls had probably seen BG prior to him approaching them on the bridge. I would guess they had seen him when they were walking in at some point and he was behaving abnormally. Watching them, semi folllwing them, just acting in a manner that wasn't quite right. They likely just brushed it off as a weird guy and went on their way. Then, they're up on the bridge on the other end in a much more remote area, and they see him again. This time he's coming directly at them. At which point the girls sensed they were in danger, prompting Libby to turn the recorder on him.

When he reached them he probably pulled a gun on them almost immediately. From that point on they were totally under his control. Sadly had they run I highly doubt he would have shot either of them.

Yes, I agree 100% with you that this is how it unfolded. I think that's the most likely scenario IMO.

However, my personal opinion is also that they ran and one or both was shot and injured, not necessarily killed. I believe that they made it across the creek, alive, but very injured, where the attack continued.

Maybe that is what Libby's grandfather meant by his statement at the press conference alluding that both girls were heroes and that he imagined that there were a couple of times the girls could have separated, but their love for each other compelled them to stay together.

Sure, that could be his personal opinion, but I'm also sure that he has a lot more details and although he has to remain vague in order to not jeopardize the case, that his opinion is still based on what has been revealed to him. JMO!




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[Crwhitlock]

LE are also there too prevent crime. Advising of dangers (e.g. sexual offenders ) would be part of that. As long as they don't catch him by it happening again that is my fear. Any suspicions in the community need to be called in.

They are trying to prevent crime. They are trying to catch this man so he doesn't do this to another young girl. That is the best way they can prevent crime in this situation, getting this man off the streets.

I'm not sure what else they could say at this point to make the community safer. Two young girls were abducted and murdered, everyone knows this. I would hope parents and young women are already behaving with a heightened sense of security and protection.

Would LE confirming that it was a indeed a sexually motivated homocide change the way people in the community are already behaving? Personally I don't think it would or should change anything at this point.