IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #65

[margarita25]

Likely/possibly O/T, or not...? Maybe a long shot...got a weird feeling about this one anyway...

Missing Chicago Woman's Body Found In Will County At Kankakee River
Martha Sanchez, 24, disappeared from Chicago on the afternoon of July 4th and was never seen or heard from again.
https://patch.com/illinois/chicago/missing-chicago-womans-body-found-will-county-kankakee-river

"The distance from where Sanchez disappeared and where her body turned up in Will County is roughly 60 miles."

Snip

"Initially, the Illinois State Police received leads and tips suggesting that the body dumped near Wilmington may belong to a woman from Kokomo who has been missing since October. However, that scenario was quickly ruled out."

(Chicago has been on my radar, along with the whole of Planet Earth)

"The Kankakee River is a tributary of the Illinois River, approximately 133 miles long, in northwestern Indiana and northeastern Illinois in the United States."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kankakee_River

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...quot-Tica-quot-Sanchez-24-Chicago-4-July-2017

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...15-25-in-Kankakee-River-Jul-17-Martha-Sanchez

Kankakee River to Delphi, IN:
1 h 19 min (75.7 mi)
via I-65 S

Kankakee River Water Trail
http://www.indianatrails.com/?q=content/kankakee-river-water-trail

KANKAKEE RIVER

"The Kankakee River is one of Indiana's most extensive water drainage systems. It encompasses approximately 3,000 square miles of river basin which includes at least thirteen northwestern Indiana Counties."
http://www.in.gov/dnr/outdoor/4484.htm

 

[JazzTune]

If there was a known vehicle involved, then this would be a lead that might help identify the killer. So why wouldn't LE let the public know? Plus, in the last, very in depth interview given on this case the investigator very much indicated that this abduction took place on foot.

This investigator also expressed some of the difficulty that LE encounters when false information is spread.

If there isn't any evidence, whatsoever, to support a theory, why go there? I don't get it.

http://fox59.com/2017/08/14/lead-de...ave-more-audio-from-teens-phone-dna-evidence/

Thanks Gracie for your reply. You've made good points, I don't dispute that but I do disagree with some of your conclusions.

First, IF there was a vehicle, maybe LE did not get ANY sighting of it at all. Therefore, they would not be able to give a description.

Which leads to the next point. Maybe LE doesn't know for sure whether a vehicle was involved or not.

As for the investigator, are you talking about Sgt Holeman? If so, I did not interpret his remarks that way at all. In fact, I thought he was saying the complete opposite. Imo, he was listing all the obstacles for why the girls did NOT walk across the creek.

False information? When clearly labeled as my opinion only?

Sharing a theory without known (to us) evidence?

Might someone else call it thinking outside the box?

Oh, just a reminder too that you can always alert a mod to my posts or any other if you feel they are questionable. You can also put anyone on your ignore list if you don't want to read their posts.

Again, not meaning to sound snarky at all.

We're all different and we see things our own ways.

So grateful to everyone here for sharing their time and resources to help get justice for these girls...

 

[JazzTune]

Just a few thoughts:

The road which goes under the SE end of the bridge is a private drive, at that point, and people have to have permission to use it. I don't remember if there's a gate where it meets the county road/split, south of the SE end of the bridge, or further up towards the house. The road leads downhill from the split, then underneath the bridge.

There are several residential properties along that road (625 W). IMHO, it would have been too risky for BG to drive down that road, and risk being seen driving not only to the SE end of the bridge, but back out of there. Again, it's a private drive, and according to a YouTube video I watched earlier, people have to have permission to use it, by the owner of the property at the end of the road/drive. A perp could have been seen driving in and out of there by a postal carrier or other delivery driver, too.

Easier to slip in and out of the cemetery.

Just seems too risky to me.

JMO

It would have been risky, but heck, this whole crime was risky!

I believe he checked that road out beforehand, and saw nothing that concerned him. I bet this was not the first day he was out there either. He likely checked it out multiple times and noted the times of mail delivery, etc.

He would have been able to see if any of the homes were empty for the season. Plus, he knew he wasn't going to be there very long.

I believe he chanced it...

 

[htiff]

Thanks Gracie for your reply. You've made good points, I don't dispute that but I do disagree with some of your conclusions.

First, IF there was a vehicle, maybe LE did not get ANY sighting of it at all. Therefore, they would not be able to give a description.

Which leads to the next point. Maybe LE doesn't know for sure whether a vehicle was involved or not.

As for the investigator, are you talking about Sgt Holeman? If so, I did not interpret his remarks that way at all. In fact, I thought he was saying the complete opposite. Imo, he was listing all the obstacles for why the girls did NOT walk across the creek.

False information? When clearly labeled as my opinion only?

Sharing a theory without known (to us) evidence?

Might someone else call it thinking outside the box?

Oh, just a reminder too that you can always alert a mod to my posts or any other if you feel they are questionable. You can also put anyone on your ignore list if you don't want to read their posts.

Again, not meaning to sound snarky at all.

We're all different and we see things our own ways.

So grateful to everyone here for sharing their time and resources to help get justice for these girls...

First: I never addressed you directly. My question: "Can someone point me to where anyone in LE has mentioned that a vehicle was in any manner involved with this abduction?" (at #280) was in response to someone else, and was really directed at the entire group discussing here. You chose to answer.


Second: Here is the excerpt from the transcript of the Investigator's interview (thank you Spellbound, this has proven very useful)--you can find this at #186--

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-Delphi-13-Feb-2017-65/page13&highlight=libby


"A : When you walked down and I walked through, that was private property right where the bodies were found. Looking at it logistically from where they were on the bridge and to where their bodies were found, I know we talked about the terrain in the past. I know it's not an easy thing to navigate. Usually you might have to be familiar with the area. I mean, would it have been difficult for the girls to from where they were on the bridge to where they were found?

H: [10:49] Yeah. Absolutely. I think it would be difficult, obviously. They have to go through some pretty steep terrain in a wooded area, sticker bushes and things like that, so it's uh ... and then to cross the creek. The creek, and obviously it's February, it's probably not the warmest . The weather was a warm day that day, but still the water temperature is probably cooler than the air temperature. So yeah, it would have been difficult for .... I mean, I don't think anybody, say on a walk, would walk that way. "


Third: And this next is, of course, just my opinion: There is a big difference, I believe, between "thinking outside the box" and just making stuff up.

I do believe that theories are only useful in the pursuit of justice, if they can be adequately supported by some form of reliable and relevant facts. But that's just me. I personally have never known a case to be solved by wild speculation. In fact, speculation has been known to be harmful, or at least cumbersome to investigations--as is noted by LE on this specific case.

But I have no need to report you. I'll just do the scroll and roll.

 

[Shiressleuth]

I'm very sorry but please know we at Websluths appreciate your efforts very much.

Yes Spellbound. Many thanks for the transcript. Please can mods add it to the media thread?
As for it being copied, that is rude of them but remember, Spellbound, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Some of the other websites spend all their time talking about and quoting WS. Why don't they just contribute here if they like us so much. :smile:

 

[JazzTune]

First: I never addressed you directly. My question: "Can someone point me to where anyone in LE has mentioned that a vehicle was in any manner involved with this abduction?" (at #280) was in response to someone else, and was really directed at the entire group discussing here. You chose to answer.


Second: Here is the excerpt from the transcript of the Investigator's interview (thank you Spellbound, this has proven very useful)--you can find this at #186--

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-Delphi-13-Feb-2017-65/page13&highlight=libby


"A : When you walked down and I walked through, that was private property right where the bodies were found. Looking at it logistically from where they were on the bridge and to where their bodies were found, I know we talked about the terrain in the past. I know it's not an easy thing to navigate. Usually you might have to be familiar with the area. I mean, would it have been difficult for the girls to from where they were on the bridge to where they were found?

H: [10:49] Yeah. Absolutely. I think it would be difficult, obviously. They have to go through some pretty steep terrain in a wooded area, sticker bushes and things like that, so it's uh ... and then to cross the creek. The creek, and obviously it's February, it's probably not the warmest . The weather was a warm day that day, but still the water temperature is probably cooler than the air temperature. So yeah, it would have been difficult for .... I mean, I don't think anybody, say on a walk, would walk that way. "


Third: And this next is, of course, just my opinion: There is a big difference, I believe, between "thinking outside the box" and just making stuff up.

I do believe that theories are only useful in the pursuit of justice, if they can be adequately supported by some form of reliable and relevant facts. But that's just me. I personally have never known a case to be solved by wild speculation. In fact, speculation has been known to be harmful, or at least cumbersome to investigations--as is noted by LE on this specific case.

It's all just my opinion. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Let's agree to disagree and move on....

 

[Niner]

Okay - getting here a bit late, but just wanted to make a few comments, as I finally caught up reading here.

Quotes from post #244.

snipped by me....
A: [18.33] you need help, yeah, get some new recruits. Umm, tell me, with the audio, which we heard. I remember the first time that was played at the press conference and that was bone-chilling to know you are going to be able to hear this person's voice, even though it was just that tiny clip. But what he was saying gave away, you know, some clues as well, but what has that been able to do for the case, having that voice out there?
H: I think it's helped a lot. Obviously, it's a distinctive voice. We've been getting a lot of tips off of that. unfortunately, the people that people think it is, we've been able to eliminate them. Not all of them, but most of them, we can eliminate through checking records and things like that. So, I think it's helped quite a bit. I think as we get into this deeper, it's gonna help us even more-so.

So - just how he said this - they have NOT eliminated "everyone" - so they probably have a few POIs. I'm hoping it is so!

snipped by me....
H: I think that every time I close my eyes I hear the audio and I see the picture, I don't have to listen to it because I have listened to it a million times. But yeah, it definitely re-motivates us to think about that. So yeah, it's there.

Personally, I think this Sheriff should go undercover at different bars around the area and "listen" to people speaking.... I'm sure if he heard "that" voice - he would know the killer!

This is in response to

maybe they want him to think they don't have it..so he won't run...false sense of security might embolden him though, like maybe start talking about the crime a lot , saying they don't have DNA etc... I hope they are really scouring the little town hide out taverns, talking to bartenders etc.
they should have someone calling all the bars. They should stop in, show around the sketch.... I just know he has a regular bar or two.

 

[htiff]

Okay - getting here a bit late, but just wanted to make a few comments, as I finally caught up reading here.

Quotes from post #244.


So - just how he said this - they have NOT eliminated "everyone" - so they probably have a few POIs. I'm hoping it is so!



Personally, I think this Sheriff should go undercover at different bars around the area and "listen" to people speaking.... I'm sure if he heard "that" voice - he would know the killer!

This is in response to

That's an interesting idea.

 

[Shiressleuth]

HMMM...did he have a car parked there under the bridge? Has anyone mentioned a car under the bridge? Logic says to me, he didn't have a car on the road, by or under the bridge. Had he loaded them in a car, we may still be looking for them.
MOO

Please offer your theory on HOW the girls got from the SE portion of the bridge, back across the road and the creek, to be found 1/2 mile upstream on the other side.

I have been thinking about this and I think they were taken DTH to the private road , which they followed onto the empty private property and which goes to the Creek virtually at the end of the sandbar. He made them walk across the sandbar diagonally to the CS. Have a look at this private track and see how close to the Creek and the CS this road actually is. The case map is helpful for this purpose.

Also, was anybody house sitting or watching the property for the snowbirds? I am sure LE have checked this but if the property was empty, I think BG knew this and could have accessed it to get to the CS. JMO.

 

[IceIce9]

Where is this meth lab story coming from? Does it have an origin?

I don't know where either the meth lab story or the story about a car being used to take them away and then return them to the scene originated.

i haven't seen either mentioned in MSM or by LE yet they have repeatedly posted here so I would like to know.

 

[Bird of Paradise]

OK below is a screenshot of a map that shows where in Indiana meth labs have been found. If you note, there have been zero labs found in Delphi. This may be slightly outdated info, but it goes to the point that not only is it unlikely that someone would have an outdoor lab in a public park--or near to one, but Delphi is not exactly being overrun by labs.

Map snipped for space.
Not arguing your point but wanted to post this:

"When we go interview them, we go to their house. They’ve got stolen articles in their house or they’ve got, unfortunately, we’ve found meth labs in homes."

http://fox59.com/2017/08/04/delphi-tip-line-leads-to-dozens-of-unrelated-arrests/

 

[Bird of Paradise]

I don't know where either the meth lab story or the story about a car being used to take them away and then return them to the scene originated.

i haven't seen either mentioned in MSM or by LE yet they have repeatedly posted here so I would like to know.

I will speak only for myself having been here from the start, I do believe they were possible scenarios put forth and were done so with the understanding it was the poster's own opinion.

 

[Shiressleuth]

Gray Hughes says his Flow video 3 was so accurate that LE contacted him and was impressed at how he was able to come up with the flow of the crime with just publicly available info. http://youtube.com/watch?v=cTvPXfFltSo If this new one has been linked....scroll and roll

Does GH answer it satisfactorily enough for LE? How did he explain it?

 

[venutian21]

It has always been my belief that the water plays a significant factor here.

1). Anyone with any experience tracking by means of your own abilities or with dogs, would know that crossing water is a good way to "end a trail". Going off that point brings me back to this guy is an outdoorsman, hunter/fisher type. As I hunt and fish myself those are the first thoughts when I see that creek. Drive them across the water to obscure the trail, even if it's not far from where they were abducted.


2). Clean up. No one wants to go there, but I believe having that creek so close by is a great means of disposal of evidence and general clean up of yourself and such things.



So i believe they crossed the creek, and I believe they crossed by force.


MOO.

 

[Shiressleuth]

You bring up good points, and I will take on your challenge.

I have never believed the girls crossed the creek.

It's my belief the perp planned these murders way in advance. In fact, I think he planned everything down to the very last detail, including the route to where their bodies were found.

He was not about to leave something that critically important to the elements of running water. The girls could have slipped on wet rocks, or even managed to get away from him downstream. They could have been seen by casual observers from the bridge or other vantage points.

He wasn't going to risk that!

More importantly, HE could have slipped on wet rocks, or dropped any of his weapons, concealed beneath his jacket. He had waited too long for this day. He was not about to risk his plans to the unpredictable elements of the water.

I agree with DeDee. I don't think Sgt. Holeman was saying they DID cross the creek. On the contrary, I think he was actually pointing out all the obstacles as to why they didn't.

I'm a person who often reads between the lines. For whatever reason, I don't think he minded if this was not spelled out clearly. That's my impression anyway.

I realize people interpret his words differently, and they may be correct.

You asked how I think he got them to the other side? The exact way you think did not happen - by automobile.

I believe he had his car parked on that private road located off the south end of the bridge. Though he knew it posed a slight chance of being seen, I believe he had checked out the nearby homes ahead of time, and saw no imminent risk. He knew his car wouldn't be there very long. This crime would be quick.

It was carried out with military precision. I believe the 'down the hill,' led straight to his car where he quickly hustled the girls into the trunk. Just mere minutes after leaving the bridge.

Imo, that's why no one saw or heard them after he grabbed them.

I think he did drive them around to the other side, hence the 'phone pinging around town' statement made by Libby's father. I know various towers can have the same phone pinging while the phone is not moving, but I don't believe that's what happened here. I think the phone was actually in transit.

I don't have any article or media source to back this up. It's my opinion only, but it fits my theory of how carefully planned this crime was. The perp made sure he covered all his bases ahead of time.

So the girls crossing the water makes absolutely no sense to me, from the perp's point of view.

Again, I may be completely wrong. There may actually be 'nothing' to even be read between the lines. Wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong, for sure.

You asked though for the 'why and how' theory from anyone who believed differently, so this is my opinion. Based solely upon my gut feeling only.

Want to add too, I'm not at all convinced it's just one perp either. I thought it was for a long time, but now I'm not so sure...

I was in this vehicle abduction under the bridge camp for quite a while so :- Just a few questions - Why didn't the girls phone 911 from the trunk? They obviously still had their phones. Where were they taken and why and when were they brought back to the cemetery Creek side CS?

 

[Spellbound]

Yes Spellbound. Many thanks for the transcript. Please can mods add it to the media thread?
As for it being copied, that is rude of them but remember, Spellbound, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Some of the other websites spend all their time talking about and quoting WS. Why don't they just contribute here if they like us so much. :smile:

I sent a request (to add to Media thread, and to fix my link on the second post that takes you to my profile page instead of to the first half.... duhhh)). Glad it has been helpful to many.

 

[Shiressleuth]

Can someone point me to where anyone in LE has mentioned that a vehicle was in any manner involved with this abduction?

RL's truck being impounded and searched could indicate involvement of a vehicle IMO.

 

[venutian21]

Forgive me if this has been posted before, but this link provides so much information. There are a few things here that stick out HEAVILY to me. Particularly the part where officials say a certain persons job allowed them to roam about the Midwest freely.


https://iowacoldcases.org/case-summaries/lyric-cook-and-elizabeth-collins/

 

[Shiressleuth]

It would have been risky, but heck, this whole crime was risky!

I believe he checked that road out beforehand, and saw nothing that concerned him. I bet this was not the first day he was out there either. He likely checked it out multiple times and noted the times of mail delivery, etc.

He would have been able to see if any of the homes were empty for the season. Plus, he knew he wasn't going to be there very long.

I believe he chanced it...

I agree Jazz, whether he had a vehicle or not, trespassing on empty private property would be nothing to a double murderer and would guarantee seclusion for his access to the CS IMO.

 

[BigCityAccountant]

I have been thinking about this and I think they were taken DTH to the private road , which they followed onto the empty private property and which goes to the Creek virtually at the end of the sandbar. He made them walk across the sandbar diagonally to the CS. Have a look at this private track and see how close to the Creek and the CS this road actually is. The case map is helpful for this purpose.

Also, was anybody house sitting or watching the property for the snowbirds? I am sure LE have checked this but if the property was empty, I think BG knew this and could have accessed it to get to the CS. JMO.

The snowbirds~~~

Who was mowing the lawn/shoveling the snow/looking after the house? Was it a company or an individual? Who is employed by that company? If an individual, who did that individual talk to? Other clients, neighbors of other clients (IE: potential new clients)? Something along the lines of "Oh, I'm taking care of this house over by the Monon Bridge for these people who go to (insert place) for the winter and the bridge is really cool to see."

I would check out the caretakers other clients.

I could see this guy being with a lawn service/snow service. Would explain why he looks like he works outdoors.

What about past lawn/snow services? Did the snowbirds always use the same company or individual or did they change year to year?