IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #65

[deedee21]

HMMM...did he have a car parked there under the bridge? Has anyone mentioned a car under the bridge? Logic says to me, he didn't have a car on the road, by or under the bridge. Had he loaded them in a car, we may still be looking for them.
MOO

Please offer your theory on HOW the girls got from the SE portion of the bridge, back across the road and the creek, to be found 1/2 mile upstream on the other side.

Look at Julies video. She stepped off the South East end of the bridge. She walked down the hill. She walked over to the creek. The crime scene tape could be seen right across the creek. Slightly South East .
I think talk about half a mile to three quarters of a mile is from where the girls were dropped off.

 

[margarita25]

No, that is not what was said. Sigh. It was found "in the same general area" and she still could have tossed it.

Agreed. My guess is maaaaybe it was in her clothing pocket/bag, or bra, which maaaybe was found in the near vicinity, separate from their bodies. Or she tossed it. There is also the possibility it was dropped/lost during a struggle, or he tossed it in the water.

 

[gregjrichards]

did police release more audio from Libby's phone? or share it with the parents?
does the recording include the girls talking about a man behind them?

No audio has been released publicly except "down the hill". I understand the recording has been shared with the parents. From the media quote I shared the other day yes the recording is said to include girl talk and talking about a man behind them.

 

[Jethro4WS]

I thank you Spellbound! I know how hard it is to transcribe without a machine and trying to get the words right and do constant rewinds!

I snipped this part of Spellbounds post



The way I read this is they DID cross the creek.

Read her question and read his answer.

How else does anyone think they got back to the other side of the creek? He didn't march them back across the bridge. He didn't have a car and drive them around. He didn't have them walk up and around on the road.

I am not being snarky about this. This is MOO and logical. I am trying to understand how others think the girls got back to the other side of the creek.

We don't know that he didn't have a car - he very likely did have one. And I would be remiss in pointing out that LE went through the trouble of taking RL's truck for evidence processing.

 

[LadyL]

thank you - it was your post I was referencing but couldn't quote it

No audio has been released publicly except "down the hill". I understand the recording has been shared with the parents. From the media quote I shared the other day yes the recording is said to include girl talk and talking about a man behind them.

 

[DeDee]

Can you support this with any fact? An article? A news report? Anything?

The place where Abigail and Liberty took the shots we have seen and where they were found, would not have been easily reached by vehicle, unless the killer first forced them from the park to where a vehicle was parked--and no one from LE or any source has suggested that these girls were transported by vehicle.

The private road is on the SE end. He had a vehicle waiting. I think the girls were taken to one of the Abandoned Row Houses and returned via the cemetery. One can begin seeing the private drive in JMs video at the 01:50 mark. SS taken around the 02:09 mark. At the 3:20 mark, JM exclaims: There's a driveway! At 4:46, JM says, "See this path? You can easily say, down the hill".

I don't need to be right on this matter. It is just my humble opinion. Please don't be upset with me over an opinion. They went down the hill to the road and not to the creek.



[video=youtube;NJopmUgnMAc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJopmUgnMAc[/video]

 

[Rott Mom]

At this point, I'm more confused.

 

[dove28]

A: This is something that I wanted to ask about the audio clip. You mentioned that there's discussions and things like that. Can you say if the recording was going when thE murder happened?

H: I would say that I can't divulge that, just to protect the integrity of the investigation.

I wonder why he won't say-- how that would harm the investigation. He wouldn't be saying HOW they were killed. IMHO the recording went for their whole murder, and the reason he won't answer if Libby stopped the recording is because she died before it was stopped

 

[dove28]

what evidence is there of a meth lab? police are trained to find meth labs, you can smell them and they leave scars where ever they are, there is no known evidence that the girls stumbled on to a meth lab. I think we should rule it out as there is nothing to suggest it. MOO

I was saying meth lab hyperbolically. Just that if they had seen something-- whatever it is, drug deal or whatever people were speculating-- they could have been chit cahtting about their crushes to make it seem like they DIDNT see anything

 

[JazzTune]

Good points Jazz Tune. TY for sharing your theory.

Why put them in the car and drive them around to, the cemetery? and carry them down? force them to walk down? How in broad daylight? Or do you theorize he went somewhere else with the girls and then brought them back under darkness?

Your theory was he planned it so as to not risk being seen from the bridge crossing the water? Then why accost them in broad daylight on the bridge where anyone could have happened along?

Thanks for your kind comments! Good questions too.

Here's my take on them. I haven't figured them all out completely, but I DO think he put them in the car strictly to lessen his chances of getting caught. With them hidden in the trunk, he got away before anyone was even looking for them yet.

I believe he took them elsewhere to torture them (hate typing that!) in a secluded, isolated area. It wasn't going to be out in the open where he had to worry about being seen, or the girls being heard.

He wanted to 'savor' the moment, and it wasn't going to be a rush job either. I hate to think of what they endured.

Imo, he and perhaps an accomplice did bring them back under the cover of darkness. Why he chose that site I have no idea. Seems very risky even with the darkness.

I can't decide either whether they were still alive when they were brought back. It would have been much easier for the perps to march the girls to it, but searchers were out. The girls could have hollered out, if still alive.

So, no, I think they were deceased at that point, although I can't imagine how they were transported there.

As for abducting them in broad daylight, that's true, but keep in mind the girls were on the far side of that bridge. It was February.

Though it was a warm day, it was still wintertime. He didn't expect many people to be there anyway.

He wasn't worried either that someone else would be on that bridge. He knew the shape it was in. Dangerous, rickety, no railings. (Made me nervous just watching the YouTube videos.) He knew most people would not go on it.

Yes, he DID take a risk, but he wasn't concerned. He figured no one was going to follow him across that bridge.

The girls were sitting ducks for him...

Thank you for asking my opinion. I'm always happy to give it, even though it may very well be completely wrong. I do like reading other people's opinions too.

I also enjoy reading your posts. Please keep sharing your thoughts as well...

 

[gregjrichards]

I wonder why he won't say-- how that would harm the investigation. He wouldn't be saying HOW they were killed. IMHO the recording went for their whole murder, and the reason he won't answer if Libby stopped the recording is because she died before it was stopped

I have a different view I don't think law enforcement want monster to know what evidence they have and what they don't.

 

[Jethro4WS]

There is a sand bar, rocks under the water, and a short distance across the creek.

They didn't walk a "quarter of a mile" in the water, it was maybe 20-30 or so feet, not 1,320 feet.

The narrowest part of the creek there is 60 feet wide. Upstream of the crime scene it is well over 100 feet. All of the sandbars seen in later videos were all underwater on the 14th. The water was even higher on the 13th (and higher still on the 12th where it peaked). You can see this in the helicopter video. The channels alongside the sandbars and in between sandbars were deeper. This too you can see in the helicopter video. There is no way to cross that creek anywhere near that crime scene without being in water at one point or another where it was anywhere from 2 to 3 feet deep for some distance.

I dare anyone to walk through 38 degree (at best) water. It is bone numbing cold. Water is 20 times more efficient than air in transferring heat. It is significantly quicker in pulling heat from your body than if you were standing in 38 degree air. And it doesn't get any better once you get out of the water either. You don't warm up. Cold wet jeans don't insulate your body heat. Rather, the water wants to equalize its temperature with your body. It does so by drawing the heat from your body through your skin. That process will not stop until the temperatures have equalized. This is hypothermia 101. You will lose heat faster than your body can produce heat. You will shake. Your brain will cut the blood flow to extremities to conserve heat for your vital organs.

To see the way people talk about this it is as if walking across a 38 degree creek in February is no different than crossing a 68 degree creek in July. You will know the difference, absolutely, once you hit the water and afterwards.

Theorizing is one thing. Ignoring physics and known human body reactions to cold is another.

 

[JazzTune]

If the perp had the girls in the car, why not just ride off with them and dispose of the body elsewhere? It's an interesting theory, but it feels kind of complicated to me.

Thanks, good question. I've wondered the exact same thing! Why didn't the perp take them somewhere else? Why did he return them? I can't figure it out.

The only thing that even remotely fits is the perp was trying to play games with LE. He figured bringing the girls back would throw a big monkey wrench into the investigation.

I get the feeling he loves to read his press. He thinks he is the coolest perp that ever walked, and this is his version of a mind game. He will zig when other perps will zag.

Yes, my theory probably is complicated. I can see why anyone would say that. But I believe this perp was not taking ANY chances on discovery when he abducted them. This was HIS way of making sure of that. Throw them in the trunk and get out of there.

He was NOT going to be walking those girls through the woods, and across the creek. That was not going to happen. I firmly believe that.

As I said, I may end up being 'firmly' wrong on all details too. That would be fine with me. I will gladly eat all my strongly-opinionated words if LE will just put him behind bars!

 

[franci]

The narrowest part of the creek there is 60 feet wide. Upstream of the crime scene it is well over 100 feet. All of the sandbars seen in later videos were all underwater on the 14th. The water was even higher on the 13th (and higher still on the 12th where it peaked). You can see this in the helicopter video. The channels alongside the sandbars and in between sandbars were deeper. This too you can see in the helicopter video. There is no way to cross that creek anywhere near that crime scene without being in water at one point or another where it was anywhere from 2 to 3 feet deep for some distance.

I dare anyone to walk through 38 degree (at best) water. It is bone numbing cold. Water is 20 times more efficient than air in transferring heat. It is significantly quicker in pulling heat from your body than if you were standing in 38 degree air. And it doesn't get any better once you get out of the water either. You don't warm up. Cold wet jeans don't insulate your body heat. Rather, the water wants to equalize its temperature with your body. It does so by drawing the heat from your body through your skin. That process will not stop until the temperatures have equalized. This is hypothermia 101. You will lose heat faster than your body can produce heat. You will shake. Your brain will cut the blood flow to extremities to conserve heat for your vital organs.

To see the way people talk about this it is as if walking across a 38 degree creek in February is no different than crossing a 68 degree creek in July. You will know the difference, absolutely, once you hit the water and afterwards.

Theorizing is one thing. Ignoring physics and known human body reactions to cold is another.

I think everything you say here is true but all three of these individuals would have been furiously pumping adrenaline and normal considerations of comfort ,safety and even some fundamental biological reactions may have been impacted. I've always been a big fan of Gray Hughes and his theories and i think a gun was used to control them and the creek was crossed either by the girls trying to make a run for it or at BG's command. Fight or flight was in effect from the girls and a bit of cold water wasn't going to stop this deviant once he'd gone this far.It was probably all over by about 3pm.-but again Im just surmising

 

[JazzTune]

So you think the phone was in the trunk with the girls pinging around town and Libby would not have dialed 911 while they were in the trunk?

Thanks, good question too!

Imo, the perp had her phone at that point. I believe he took it from Libby when he put her in the trunk.

I know the new information is that her phone was found at the crime scene. I'm not convinced though that it wasn't recovered from the water where the perp may have thrown it himself.

I keep remembering all the searchers walking side by side in the water. I thought at the time they were looking for Libby's phone.

I guess I just can't fathom that the perp would leave her cell phone in her possession. Doesn't make sense to me...

 

[DeDee]

So you think the phone was in the trunk with the girls pinging around town and Libby would not have dialed 911 while they were in the trunk?

Perhaps LG could not dial 911 if she were bound, say, with the white rope BG is carrying.

 

[IceIce9]

Agreed, no evidence thus far of any meth production activity in the immediate vicinity of the bridge.

It's a public area. If there were issues of that sort, we'd know by now.

Meth production in Indiana is most often done in abandoned farmhouses, which are abundant in secluded areas. It isn't done out in the open, where people would notice activity and definitely the odor of meth cooking.

 

[DeDee]

I think everything you say here is true but all three of these individuals would have been furiously pumping adrenaline and normal considerations of comfort and safety wouldn't have applied. I've always been a big fan of Gray Hughes and his theories and i think a gun was used to control them and the creek was crossed either by the girls trying to make a run for it or at BG's command. Fight or flight was in effect from the girls and a bit of cold water wasn't going to stop this deviant. It was probably all over by about 3pm.but again Im just surmising

Fight or flight was in effect from the girls

There is professional acknowledgement that there are three responses to fear.
Fight
Flight
Freeze

 

[Deleted member 102539]

You bring up good points, and I will take on your challenge.

I have never believed the girls crossed the creek.

It's my belief the perp planned these murders way in advance. In fact, I think he planned everything down to the very last detail, including the route to where their bodies were found.

He was not about to leave something that critically important to the elements of running water. The girls could have slipped on wet rocks, or even managed to get away from him downstream. They could have been seen by casual observers from the bridge or other vantage points.

He wasn't going to risk that!

More importantly, HE could have slipped on wet rocks, or dropped any of his weapons, concealed beneath his jacket. He had waited too long for this day. He was not about to risk his plans to the unpredictable elements of the water.

I agree with DeDee. I don't think Sgt. Holeman was saying they DID cross the creek. On the contrary, I think he was actually pointing out all the obstacles as to why they didn't.

I'm a person who often reads between the lines. For whatever reason, I don't think he minded if this was not spelled out clearly. That's my impression anyway.

I realize people interpret his words differently, and they may be correct.

You asked how I think he got them to the other side? The exact way you think did not happen - by automobile.

I believe he had his car parked on that private road located off the south end of the bridge. Though he knew it posed a slight chance of being seen, I believe he had checked out the nearby homes ahead of time, and saw no imminent risk. He knew his car wouldn't be there very long. This crime would be quick.

It was carried out with military precision. I believe the 'down the hill,' led straight to his car where he quickly hustled the girls into the trunk. Just mere minutes after leaving the bridge.

Imo, that's why no one saw or heard them after he grabbed them.

I think he did drive them around to the other side, hence the 'phone pinging around town' statement made by Libby's father. I know various towers can have the same phone pinging while the phone is not moving, but I don't believe that's what happened here. I think the phone was actually in transit.

I don't have any article or media source to back this up. It's my opinion only, but it fits my theory of how carefully planned this crime was. The perp made sure he covered all his bases ahead of time.

So the girls crossing the water makes absolutely no sense to me, from the perp's point of view.

Again, I may be completely wrong. There may actually be 'nothing' to even be read between the lines. Wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong, for sure.

You asked though for the 'why and how' theory from anyone who believed differently, so this is my opinion. Based solely upon my gut feeling only.

Want to add too, I'm not at all convinced it's just one perp either. I thought it was for a long time, but now I'm not so sure...

IF he is the perp who had already abducted/murdered the Iowa cousins (and I do think he is!), then he had experience in going off with two girls in his car (work Van). His "military precision" started from this point of getting them in the car; he had only to refine his tactics a little bit (taking them back near the first CS he thought would have been searched already). IMO

 

[htiff]

If the perp had the girls in the car, why not just ride off with them and dispose of the body elsewhere? It's an interesting theory, but it feels kind of complicated to me.

Can someone point me to where anyone in LE has mentioned that a vehicle was in any manner involved with this abduction?