IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #74

[sumzero]

For one thing, we don’t know why the murders happened there in the woods. Was this the killer’s plan all along? Or did he intend to take one or both alive in his vehicle to another location? Did he do to them what he intended? Or did they put up more resistance than he anticipated, so he quickly killed them and fled? Without knowing the particulars, it’s hard to get inside the mind of the killer. It’s also hard to know what kind of DNA was left behind (though LE has been clear about having obtained DNA from the crime scene).

 

[Deleted member 155000]

I've gone through stages of commenting regularly on this case...as well as stages of silence.

Have been following the DN-related stories closely. Intrigued by some of the possible ways DN's story could fit the profile and circumstances here, but still feel like there are too many gaps.

1. Bridge Guy: serial killer or no? The fact that he attacked two victims at once leaves the possibility of it being a SK open. But I'm not sure the perpetrator was that calculated. I can also see this being the work of someone who struggled with mental instability, who had anger issues, and who felt provoked in some way.
Maybe he harmed or killed one girl, then got scared and covered it up by killing both.

2. Local (25 mi radius), semi local (50-75 mi) or non local? I think the person is local or semi-local, but perhaps is an outlier. Maybe they live outside the town. Or maybe they formerly lived in the area and have reason to re-visit from time to time.

3. what age range do you believe he is? My best guess is 35-45. I base this on my impressions of the POI photo, as well as the nature of the crime (believing an older person might be more calculated to take on two people at once, but still not be so old that they wouldn't feel confident in overpowering them). I still don't rule out that this act could've been committed by two people working together (and, if so, they're probably either related or both see themselves as anarchists, in some respects, who've been wronged by society).

4. Homeless or not? No. I think the person probably has a roof over their head. But I wouldn't be surprised if they couch surf or jump from place to place. Or if they live outside of town out on some backwoods rural property.

5. Planned attack or spontaneous? I wish we had more information because I think if we knew what the police did, we could take a better guess at this. I think, because two people were targeted, I lean toward it being planned...but it's like 60%/40% for me right now until we known more for certain about cause of death and DNA recovered.

6. Lone wolf or accomplice (s)? One person with a weapon seems most likely, but I leave open the possibility there could've been two (as mentioned above).

 

[Love Never Fails]

All JMO
I have a hard time that not enough forensic evidence was found on or near the bodies to help with this case. Im beginning to wonder if the lack of charges and apparent lack of good evidence is maybe a clue to the perp.

Lets think about this for a minute.

Two girls were killed and their bodies were recovered within one day. So LE should have been able to recover some fresh and pretty substantial pieces of forensic evidence if it was there. So maybe the clue is that very little forensic evidence from the perp was left there.

The way I look at this case is either the perp had left his own DNA on or in at least one of the girls or he did not leave any DNA. Assuming the perp must have had a sexual motive on his mind at least originally. I think the perp has serious mental issues and controlling the girls was a big part of his crime. He got satisfaction of being able to control their movements with "down the hill" and forcing them to do whatever he told them. I am guessing that once he realized they were obeying his commands and he got them to his final spot that his motive changed to only murder to keep from getting caught. This could explain some things.

The reporting of this case has been very vague about the DNA. Which is making me lean towards no DNA found inside the girls. If anything they may have found very little touch type DNA on some clothing articles or somewhere near the crime scene. Or no DNA was recovered at all which would be very disappointing and hard to believe. So I do think they found some DNA but I am guessing it was only touch type DNA found on some articles of clothing and maybe very little of it.

In other cases that I have seen on TV the investigators had to guess where DNA would be. So they tested different objects that were likely to have been touched by the perp. Because they did not know where the DNA would be. I think that could be what happened in this case. That once they could not find DNA inside the girls they had to resort to testing different articles of clothing and different areas of the bodies to see if the perp had touched them anywhere. This could explain the confusing reports about DNA. There may be very little of it found from someone that is not known to the girls.

For how they were killed. I believe one of five ways could have been used by the perp. Some of the ways would have left much more evidence than others. But if the perp's motive changed to only murder and he used a certain method then there may have not been much evidence that would have helped. The five ways that I believe could have been used are.

1-shot with some type of gun

2-strangulation

3-stabbed or other sharp weapon that would penetrate the skin. Like an axe, screwdriver, knife, or some other sharp tool or something sharp used as a weapon that breaks the skin to penetrate a vital organ or cut a vein that leads to bleeding to death

4-blunt force trauma- like a hard piece of wood being used as a club or just using boots or bare hands to beat and pound a person to death

5-drowned

So for Number 1 , any shooting should have left some bullets to be recovered either in the bodies or in the ground or trees somewhere. Assuming this because two girls being shot would have had multiple bullets fired so assuming at least one bullet or more recovered.
Also its possible casings maybe found too if semi auto used. Matching something gun related back to a found gun weapon could really help in this case.
The key to this method would be LE finding the gun. If they have not found it yet then it could explain why the case has not moved along.

Same for Number 3 method. LE would likely need to find the weapon used if it was not at the crime scene. Without the weapon then its hard to match to a perp.

Number 2 Number 4 and Number 5 likely would have left touch DNA from the perp on articles of clothing or the bodies. These three methods should give LE some touch type DNA evidence I would think.

So maybe this is the clue to what happened. Maybe only touch type DNA evidence found and maybe this hints towards the type of perp LE is dealing with. Someone with deep phsycological issues. Would have a past with known mental issues and wanting to control women.

Hi Hatfield, I remember you from the JA case.

If LE has many persons of interest, along with all the possibilities you mentioned, what a mess! It could be anyone out there.

I had hoped that with good detective work, evidence had been presented to the prosecutor by now. With the prosecutor resigning and making the comment that no charges are likely soon, i have to wonder what his reason for resigning is. And could it be he just isn’t up to prosecuting murders of six young children in Carroll County?

LE knows the COD and I believe it was strangulation or possibly a knife or hatchet. As for motive, a SK needs no motive. If it was DN, I would say it was rage and opportunity. Those poor little girls!

 

[M. Kay]

I'm 50/50...to me BG looks older, and his voice seems older too. However for me, everything else makes me think maybe. Living under a bridge, the sketch, KN not remembering if he came or not to her scan.

I'm 50/50...to me BG looks older, and his voice seems older too. However for me, everything else makes me think maybe. Living under a bridge, the sketch, KN not remembering if he came or not to her scan.

Agreeing with this post, though leaning toward one 50% more than the other 50%. Saying KN is "not remembering" is one way of referring to circumstances. LE knows better what she means when she says that, for they access a fuller picture of her in February than we do here on WS.
Reading about DN's history, he's acted too irrationally in documented past to have committed any 'perfect' crime in my opinion. Still, no matter who is named when charges finally come, thinking of Abby and Libby's family waiting, waiting for "the day".

 

[Scarlett12]

Even with the latest news about the prosecutor stepping down,I still believe DN is the murderer and we will be seeing charges.

I’m hoping the prosecutor is stepping down because charges are coming.. and he doesn’t want to leave in the middle of a trial.

If this ever goes to court it’s going to be 1) a media goat show 2) a long drawn out process with change of venue filings etc 3) an emotionally huge undertaking.

This won’t be a quick trial by any means..


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[Scarlett12]

That thought has crossed my mind more than once...good to see somebody has had the same thought.

I agree. LE FINALLY paid InTown Suites a call.


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[Scarlett12]

I have been of the opinion that LE down there are pretty darn inept. I really think this case will go cold.

Yup! Ego city from the get go..


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[Voodoo71]

Snipped

All JMO
I have a hard time that not enough forensic evidence was found on or near the bodies to help with this case. Im beginning to wonder if the lack of charges and apparent lack of good evidence is maybe a clue to the perp.

I've thought about this. There is a reason they seem to lack evidence to name a suspect, but why is that? Has the murderer done this before and knows how to keep a CS clean? Do they work in a profession where they have learned how to not leave evidence behind? Did the murders happen in a way that physical evidence wasn't located(maybe the girls were drugged and would show only on a toxicology report)
Like LE has said, they have DNA, however, I believe the DNA they have belongs to the girls.
Simply, there is not enough information for us to even guess at this point!

 

[Jabarn]

Snipped

I've thought about this. There is a reason they seem to lack evidence to name a suspect, but why is that? Has the murderer done this before and knows how to keep a CS clean? Do they work in a profession where they have learned how to not leave evidence behind? Did the murders happen in a way that physical evidence wasn't located(maybe the girls were drugged and would show only on a toxicology report)
Like LE has said, they have DNA, however, I believe the DNA they have belongs to the girls.
Simply, there is not enough information for us to even guess at this point!

It must be something like that. I have always felt this was a crime committed by an very angry, crazed and random person. If someone like that was the perpetrator, he would be likely to leave behind more clues than a planned, organized killer. For the latter, this location for committing the crime is off the wall.

There are major clues, unlike any case I can recall since Missy Bevers.

What explanation could there be for why the crime hasn’t been solved other than the evidence doesn’t match anyone on the radar, and the perpetrator was a transient with no direct ties to the area?

 

[minazoe]

I feel that DN looks exactly like the drawing, the drawing includes a weird facial feature that I notice right off as an artist.
it could be from missing teeth i guess , but the lower part of his face is noticeably short , the space between, say his jawline and his cheekbone, if you measured you find it is shorter and also looks unusual in a way I cant fully describe but almost as though his jaw doesnt fit well and is too fine and small, and the goatee doesn't really compensate but covers it.

when I look at DN I see this exact same dispairity in his face, this same short face with a small childish jaw and chin, and then the famous wide set eyes that are also dead on.

I would be so interested to know if this was a feature that was described to the artist, a feature that stood out about this face.

the perfection of the drawing around the eyes, is stunning and as an artist I would say that this drawing was done from a photograph. No eye witness is going to tell you , well this guys face is about two inches too short on the bottom and he has this shadow here, and his eyes are exactly the size of these two coins.

I dont know what happened with the ears. they may have added them later after they couldn't decide on the hat. So I am of the opinion that they did not have concern about the ears and added them later after they changed the hat.

I honestly think they have been after him for awhile now, and thats why he split town.

maybe they are wrong about it, but I think they are playing a game..no one is exonerating him, the press is still trying to get
something on this and DN is still sitting in jail being watched 24 hours a day and causing a lot of frustration..

I hope they can get something on him, they need his wife to give them everything. all of it..

I know how it can and must hurt them to have someone they KNOW and believe is their man and they just can't get him..they just cant get enough...

Even his own wife can not exclude him and is terrified. this should tell us something. MOO

 

[Boxer]

It must be something like that. I have always felt this was a crime committed by an very angry, crazed and random person. If someone like that was the perpetrator, he would be likely to leave behind more clues than a planned, organized killer. For the latter, this location for committing the crime is off the wall.

There are major clues, unlike any case I can recall since Missy Bevers.

What explanation could there be for why the crime hasn’t been solved other than the evidence doesn’t match anyone on the radar, and the perpetrator was a transient with no direct ties to the area?

IMO since LE has said they have enough evidence to convict a killer, they do have evidence that will connect a person the scene.
They have said they just need to find the person.

They didn't get a match from DN. However since they may still continue to believe one scenario involved two perpetrators DN cannot be excluded.

 

[her]

I’m hoping the prosecutor is stepping down because charges are coming.. and he doesn’t want to leave in the middle of a trial. If this ever goes to court it’s going to be 1) a media goat show 2) a long drawn out process with change of venue filings etc 3) an emotionally huge undertaking. This won’t be a quick trial by any means.. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The only problem is that it's clearly stated there are no charges coming in any near future. If anything they would stay and retire with a score. Regardless, they are not going to lie about this.

 

[BigCityAccountant]

IMO since LE has said they have enough evidence to convict a killer, they do have evidence that will connect a person the scene.
They have said they just need to find the person.

They didn't get a match from DN. However since they may still continue to believe one scenario involved two perpetrators DN cannot be excluded.

Haven't posted in a while~~this case is so frustrating. Wishing everyday this perp is placed behind bars!!!

I agree with the possibility that there are 2 perps so DN cannot be excluded.

But, in the last few days, I have also started to believe LE is playing a game of cat and mouse with the perp using DN as the bate. What I mean by that~~they are waiting for him to strike again. They want the perp to believe the case is going cold or that they are so focused on DN, that he rears his ugly head.

Sad and scary~~but~~I don't believe LE knows who the perp is.

...and FWIW~~I believe the perp reads here at WS as well.

Of course all JMHO.

 

[RIP Meagan + Johnny]

Haven't posted in a while~~this case is so frustrating. Wishing everyday this perp is placed behind bars!!!

I agree with the possibility that there are 2 perps so DN cannot be excluded.

But, in the last few days, I have also started to believe LE is playing a game of cat and mouse with the perp using DN as the bate. What I mean by that~~they are waiting for him to strike again. They want the perp to believe the case is going cold or that they are so focused on DN, that he rears his ugly head.

Sad and scary~~but~~I don't believe LE knows who the perp is.

...and FWIW~~I believe the perp reads here at WS as well.

Of course all JMHO.

I agree.
I’m also afraid if it isn’t DN, the “real” BG will strike again to take the attention away from DN and back to BG’s crime(s).

 

[kkdj]

The only problem is that it's clearly stated there are no charges coming in any near future. If anything they would stay and retire with a score. Regardless, they are not going to lie about this.

I didn't think it was clearly stated as I'm not sure what "near future" means.

 

[suspicious]

I feel that DN looks exactly like the drawing, the drawing includes a weird facial feature that I notice right off as an artist.
it could be from missing teeth i guess , but the lower part of his face is noticeably short , the space between, say his jawline and his cheekbone, if you measured you find it is shorter and also looks unusual in a way I cant fully describe but almost as though his jaw doesnt fit well and is too fine and small, and the goatee doesn't really compensate but covers it.

when I look at DN I see this exact same dispairity in his face, this same short face with a small childish jaw and chin, and then the famous wide set eyes that are also dead on.

I would be so interested to know if this was a feature that was described to the artist, a feature that stood out about this face.

the perfection of the drawing around the eyes, is stunning and as an artist I would say that this drawing was done from a photograph. No eye witness is going to tell you , well this guys face is about two inches too short on the bottom and he has this shadow here, and his eyes are exactly the size of these two coins.

I dont know what happened with the ears. they may have added them later after they couldn't decide on the hat. So I am of the opinion that they did not have concern about the ears and added them later after they changed the hat.

I honestly think they have been after him for awhile now, and thats why he split town.

maybe they are wrong about it, but I think they are playing a game..no one is exonerating him, the press is still trying to get
something on this and DN is still sitting in jail being watched 24 hours a day and causing a lot of frustration..

I hope they can get something on him, they need his wife to give them everything. all of it..

I know how it can and must hurt them to have someone they KNOW and believe is their man and they just can't get him..they just cant get enough...

Even his own wife can not exclude him and is terrified. this should tell us something. MOO

Totally agree with you. I've always thought the sketch cane from either video or photo, way too specific for it to be just an eye witness account.


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[kkdj]

I'm 50/50...to me BG looks older, and his voice seems older too. However for me, everything else makes me think maybe. Living under a bridge, the sketch, KN not remembering if he came or not to her scan.



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I don't know if the voice sounds older or under the influence. kwim?

 

[kkdj]

Totally agree with you. I've always thought the sketch cane from either video or photo, way too specific for it to be just an eye witness account.


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I too thought right away, once they arrested DN and the sketch was compared, that the sketch was done from a photograph. I felt that the eye witness picked DN from a picture and the sketch was drawn from that, along with the eye witness.

 

[MarisaS1985]

I didn't think it was clearly stated as I'm not sure what "near future" means.

The way I took the statement that he was retiring was simply that this case (and the others) are going to be held up in court for the next few years, and they have time for a new prosecutor to come in and learn the case(s) without it jeopardizing anything, where if he were to wait for arrests, that could pose problems. Basically, I feel like he is tired, has seen too much, maybe these cases are just too much. He has seen the evidence and crime scene photos and suspects etc. It's the worst of the worst when it involves children. So sad, but in many cases with babies or teens, it is career ending for some of LE and even prosecutors.
I thought it said, or maybe someone else had said it here, that he didn't expect any arrests this year, but the reality is, that's a little better than what? 6 weeks and its 2018. Courts slow down over Christmas and the holidays. Even if they do make an arrest before the end of the year, it's going to move at a snails pace. Better to get out now, let someone else get in and have this "slow season" to become intimate with the cases. Fresh eyes may be exactly what this case needs. I commend this prosecutor for not being driven by the need to go out on a "high note".

JMO

 

[kkdj]

I agree. LE FINALLY paid InTown Suites a call.


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Did i miss something? What does this mean?