IN - Couple charged with abandonment of adopted child after legally changing her age, Sept 2019

[Dawn Day]

When I said Natalia was NOT on trial, that is a fact..

It’s also a fact we are not jurors and this is not a courtroom. So affording anyone the presumption of innocence is a choice, a choice you’re not making when it comes to the allegations of Natalia behaving in a sociopathic manner.

 

[Amonet]

Natalia isn’t on trial.

Good point. But she certainly seems to be getting trial by media and especially by YouTube vloggers/commenters, and the reason for that is the allegations being made against N by the Barnetts and the way those allegations are being presented as factual by some media outlets.

 

[Amonet]

On the fence about whether she was an adult? Or whether they really believed she was an adult?

If it's the former maybe you need to see more picture comparisons?

First three are pictures The Mail acquired from before her time with the Barnetts, the last are after her time with the Barnetts.

Do you know what year the first few pictures are from? N looks like she has 'baby cheeks' that a lot of children lose by the age of about 5ish?

 

[Amonet]

https://www.webmd.com/children/dwarfism-causes-treatments

Lots of cans & maybes-
Growth Plates: What You Need to Know | Duke Health
again lots of range and this is for normal children.

Gibbus deformity - Wikipedia

Difference between Dwarfism and Achondroplasia | Dwarfism vs Achondroplasia

We're not dealing with an ancient skeleton, so there are more opportunities to estimate an age range for N. With an ancient skeleton maybe you could say "between the ages of 3 to 7" or "between the ages of 6 to 12" It's not likely that you're going to get an age range of between 6 and 22 as so many parts of the body are changing between these ages.

For N we also have the addition of the year of early puberty and then menarche. We don't have one snapshot of the teeth at the time of death but hopefully multiple snapshots over 9 years. Then there are the photos of the face showing what appears to be a transition from about age 4 to 7 and then changing in an 'average' way for an 'average' individual.

There are skeletal scans that have been taken of N through her time in the US due to her needing those scans for the symptoms and side-effects of the dwarfism condition she has. They're not taken specifically to estimate someone's age, but a doctor who is used to looking at the scans for people with this condition should be able to give input as to what features they generally see in a child's scan, vs scans of people in their twenties and thirties, and then compare that to the average skeleton's 'aging'.

When you have multiple things to compare, you can then lay down where the individual is for growth plates, for teeth, for menarche, etc and lay them side-by-side and say that if the teeth are average for a 10 to twelve year old, menarche has occurred, and the growth plates indicate approximately 9 to 13, then if the birth certificate says "35", it's probably wrong. But if the birth certificate says "9" or "12" then it's probably accurate or close enough.

 

[Linda7NJ]

It’s also a fact we are not jurors and this is not a courtroom. So affording anyone the presumption of innocence is a choice, a choice you’re not making when it comes to the allegations of Natalia behaving in a sociopathic manner.

I’ve repeatedly admitted as much

 

[raja]

Where did you hear that? I can't find anything online.

I can't find anything on line either. It was promoted at the end of yesterdays program. I had not been watching but caught a glance and it showed Natalie with the Mann's being interviewed by Dr P.

 

[AgeofAquaruis]

I don't feel that I know yet if that is a fair description of what happened.

One of the news reports I saw said that the school only accepted over 16s, but those who didn't have their GED could be put into catch-up classes if they weren't yet ready for the actual GED study. I don't know which class she tested into.

The Barnetts say that N had 'mature' language skills for her age, which I don't think is necessarily out of the question for a child with that background if they're immersed into a situation with no other language than English and a strong desire to learn it in order to fit in and communicate. N was also in a family that had a son who was testing way higher than his age in some subjects. Maybe some of that rubbed off onto N?[/QUOTE If you go by The Barnetts um 'logic' their son must be in his 50s and nearly eligible for retirement. Seriously.

 

[AgeofAquaruis]

If the prosecution hopes to get a conviction they better have some proof of actual intent & proof the Barnett’s actually believed she was a child at the time.

so far ...I’m not seeing any. They may simply have relied on incorrect conclusions drawn professionals who’s opinions were at odds with other professionals opinions. That’s not a crime.

There's the affidavit.

 

[Meloni88]

It is just mind blowing to me. The pictures alone should be sufficient proof for a reasonable person imo Age progression II
People with dwarfism are not a species of magical age defying fairies. They just have short limbs. They look like toddlers when they are toddlers , teens when they are teens and adults when they are adults. And they don't just randomly jump from having children's bodies to adolescent bodies at 30.

 

[Meloni88]

Do you know what year the first few pictures are from? N looks like she has 'baby cheeks' that a lot of children lose by the age of about 5ish?

The Daily Mail obtained them from the Ukrainian orphanage I believe. The reporter said they saw a document showing she was admitted as a baby in October 2003 but were not allowed to photograph/scan it.

 

[Amonet]

It is just mind blowing to me. The pictures alone should be sufficient proof for a reasonable person imo Age progression II
People with dwarfism are not a species of magical age defying fairies. They just have short limbs. They look like toddlers when they are toddlers , teens when they are teens and adults when they are adults. And they don't just randomly jump from having children's bodies to adolescent bodies at 30.

There are some types of dwarfism that can affect facial features and teeth. And there's the achondroplasia type of dwarfism that affects the shape of the upper head, but the lower face seems to 'age' in the average way.

From N's head and face I can see that it's the body that's affected, not facial features.

But not everyone is aware of these things. I've been grateful for the photos that were posted of the family of the actor who was in the Harry Potter movies that showed his actress daughter in year-by-year photos, and also the photos of The Little Couple family, as that's not something I've watched.

To be fair there are one or two rare conditions where a 14-yr old still looks like a toddler, even in their face. And more people are aware of the obverse syndrome where aging happens too fast and a ten-year old can have the appearance and physical problems of the average 70 or 80-year old person. So if the Barnett's assert that N has a condition that makes it hard to tell her age, then most people would simply accept that as they know these other conditions exist and they're basically being told that N has something similar...so why would they question that? I don't think it's that those people aren't 'reasonable' people, I think it's more that we're lucky here to have people posting links and photos and information so that we don't all have to go hunting for an hour or two, looking for conditions for names that are hard to spell and pronounce etc.

 

[Amonet]

The Daily Mail obtained them from the Ukrainian orphanage I believe. The reporter said they saw a document showing she was admitted as a baby in October 2003 but were not allowed to photograph/scan it.

This was another thing I was thinking of. There's a thing going around about kids in Ukrainian orphanages lining up in height order and one who's taller is older than the one who's shorter, and so on down the line.

That might be necessary for some of the kids who've been found 'abandoned' at age 2 to 5, and the orphanage can only estimate their age to within a few years.

But N went into the orphanage as a baby....the orphanage should keep records on the date that a child goes into the orphanage and note the age on the birth certificate if it's available. The staff would have seen a little baby growing into a toddler. They didn't just have a 6-yr old looking girl turn up one day and ten years later send her to be adopted in the US and need to estimate her age based on her height because she's fooled them for all these years!

 

[Meloni88]

There are some types of dwarfism that can affect facial features and teeth. And there's the achondroplasia type of dwarfism that affects the shape of the upper head, but the lower face seems to 'age' in the average way.

From N's head and face I can see that it's the body that's affected, not facial features.

But not everyone is aware of these things. I've been grateful for the photos that were posted of the family of the actor who was in the Harry Potter movies that showed his actress daughter in year-by-year photos, and also the photos of The Little Couple family, as that's not something I've watched.

To be fair there are one or two rare conditions where a 14-yr old still looks like a toddler, even in their face. And more people are aware of the obverse syndrome where aging happens too fast and a ten-year old can have the appearance and physical problems of the average 70 or 80-year old person. So if the Barnett's assert that N has a condition that makes it hard to tell her age, then most people would simply accept that as they know these other conditions exist and they're basically being told that N has something similar...so why would they question that? I don't think it's that those people aren't 'reasonable' people, I think it's more that we're lucky here to have people posting links and photos and information so that we don't all have to go hunting for an hour or two, looking for conditions for names that are hard to spell and pronounce etc.

I said the pictures should be sufficient proof for a reasonable person. If they still believe the parents after seeing her timeline of pictures that's unreasonable imo. Not just believing that someone could look like a child at 22. I mean yeah there's primordial dwarfism and progeria and things like that but SED dwarfism? There's plenty of people in the public eye who have that and they age like the rest of us.

 

[AgeofAquaruis]

Michael’s attorney suspended for 6 months back in 2014. Wow, he sure found the right attorney to advance his nonsense claims! This guy is a pro at that. What an appalling lack of ethics this attorney displays
Indiana Supreme Court suspends 2 Indianapolis attorneys

Birds of a feather.

 

[squareandrabbet]

There are some types of dwarfism that can affect facial features and teeth. And there's the achondroplasia type of dwarfism that affects the shape of the upper head, but the lower face seems to 'age' in the average way.

From N's head and face I can see that it's the body that's affected, not facial features.

But not everyone is aware of these things. I've been grateful for the photos that were posted of the family of the actor who was in the Harry Potter movies that showed his actress daughter in year-by-year photos, and also the photos of The Little Couple family, as that's not something I've watched.

To be fair there are one or two rare conditions where a 14-yr old still looks like a toddler, even in their face. And more people are aware of the obverse syndrome where aging happens too fast and a ten-year old can have the appearance and physical problems of the average 70 or 80-year old person. So if the Barnett's assert that N has a condition that makes it hard to tell her age, then most people would simply accept that as they know these other conditions exist and they're basically being told that N has something similar...so why would they question that? I don't think it's that those people aren't 'reasonable' people, I think it's more that we're lucky here to have people posting links and photos and information so that we don't all have to go hunting for an hour or two, looking for conditions for names that are hard to spell and pronounce etc.

Dingdingdingdingding!!!

I think we have a winner. There are conditions such as progeria, and I think a batch of people who know very little or nothing about either progeria or dwarfism, probably conflate the two in their minds or say "Isn't there somebody who...?" They aren't doing or reviewing studies into people of short stature. So, when a potential parallel like "The Orphan" comes along, it's an easy "gimme" for someone (even if it was the DM) to hang a batch of details on a "recognizable" framework, even if fictional, so that people don't have to do much work to understand it.

 

[ioethe]

It's only a small thing, but I've just noticed this statement by Michael's attorney;

Father accused of abandoning adopted girl arrested, bonds out

"This is someone he has always cared for and cared about," he said. "(Michael) is not abreast of her whereabouts, but he does have a concern to make sure she is okay."

This is a lie. Michael knows where she is because the Mans family attempted to adopt her, and he appeared in court to block the adoption. Not only was the Mans family address on the court documents, there are only two people on Facebook with Mr Mans' rather unusual first name. He could have found her in under a minute if he had any concerns for her.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Attorneys - especially defense attorneys run their mouths without regard for facts, sometimes they make stuff up out of whole cloth. Their job & truth are oftentimes complete strangers

 

[ioethe]

Attorneys - especially defense attorneys run their mouths without regard for facts, sometimes they make stuff up out of whole cloth. Their job & truth are oftentimes complete strangers

Does this mendacity extend to denying that Michael knew N was a minor, despite his statement to the police?

 

[Linda7NJ]

Does this mendacity extend to denying that Michael knew N was a minor, despite his statement to the police?

Of course. haven’t you ever watched a trial?

 

[TTF14]

Dr Phil is insufferable- sigh...if I watch that show all week and they ain’t on it...I’m hunting you down ...LMAO!

I'm almost positive it was supposed to be on today, but another show was on instead. Maybe they decided to add more to it or something and it will air next week instead. I don't know much about this case other than being aware it exists, but did something "major" happen this week that they'd want to add to the show?