IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #11

[JeannaT]

Another question for veteran sleuthers or those familiar with criminal investigations:

There have been other stalemates like this with other missing persons. How has it ended before? I can't imagine someone doesn't crack relatively soon, but what does history say? Let's say they don't find a body, how long do these names have to remain under suspicion before they break down? Has there ever been a case with this many PsOI where the group holds strong? :waitasec:

I don't know about "holding strong". How about "don't know anything more than what they're already said".

 

[Glaucon]

I don't know about "holding strong". How about "don't know anything more than what they're already said".

Without pointing at anyone individually, I'm 100% certain at this point that one or more of the frequently mentioned PsOI are responsible. I just don't see any other plausible explanation.

So, how long do people usually hold out under these circumstances? At some point they have to come back to IU or some other school. At some point they have to step out into public again. What's the end game here?

 

[epiphany]

Another question for veteran sleuthers or those familiar with criminal investigations:

There have been other stalemates like this with other missing persons. How has it ended before? I can't imagine someone doesn't crack relatively soon, but what does history say? Let's say they don't find a body, how long do these names have to remain under suspicion before they break down? Has there ever been a case with this many PsOI where the group holds strong? :waitasec:

Not exactly, but interesting one mentioned on the Lower Hudson online site yesterday:

"They don't realize the consequences of their actions — but also their inactions," Marraccini [Harrison, NY Police Chief] said.

He recalled a case in 2002 when a local high school student died from an injury suffered during a fight at a classmate's house. During that investigation, six teens were accused of lying to police and charged with obstruction of governmental procedure; police said they had claimed the fight happened at a park.

http://www.lohud.com/article/201106...ers-experts-say?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|News

 

[JeannaT]

Without pointing at anyone individually, I'm 100% certain at this point that one or more of the frequently mentioned PsOI are responsible. I just don't see any other plausible explanation.

So, how long do people usually hold out under these circumstances? At some point they have to come back to IU or some other school. At some point they have to step out into public again. What's the end game here?

If only one (and I'm guessing which one you're thinking of) is guilty, none of the others would know. So they're again not "holding strong" together, one is clammed up and the others don't know what happened to Lauren.

 

[bessie]

Another question for veteran sleuthers or those familiar with criminal investigations:

There have been other stalemates like this with other missing persons. How has it ended before? I can't imagine someone doesn't crack relatively soon, but what does history say? Let's say they don't find a body, how long do these names have to remain under suspicion before they break down? Has there ever been a case with this many PsOI where the group holds strong? :waitasec:

Take a look at the Haleigh Cummings case. Three, possibly four, almost without a doubt know more than they've told. Three of them are in prison serving 15 and 25 year sentences on drug charges, and they're still holding out. Several others are likely to be withholding information, as well. Some of them are jailed, or have been during the two years and four months poor Haleigh's been missing. As a social group, they are at the opposite end of the spectrum from the characters in Lauren's circle. Not sure if that makes a difference except to point out that POI's in Haleigh's case don't have the means to take off for parts unknown and start new lives.

 

[cluciano63]

What I've seen in other missing persons cases with one or more POI's and no real evidence, is a long stand-off, that can last seemingly forever. Haleigh Cummings case is one, 2.5 years now; Kyron Horman over a year, Hailey Dunn 6 months this weekend, just to name a few. All have POI's, named or not, and yet there is nothing LE has been able to do to obtain more information or find any of these missing people.

I do believe LE looked at the chance of a stranger abduction and probably with the new groups coming in to help, are talking about that again, as that would be standard. But from what LE and the family are saying and not saying, they believe that one or more of the people Lauren was with on the early morning hours of 6/3 knows exactly what happened to Lauren and where she is now. I would love to know if they have all the phone records they need, or are awaiting records.

 

[bessie]

I can't find it. If you could be so kind as to provide the link again-I would really appreciate it. It was my understanding that as a POI , JW was not allowed ro search. Thanks again AnalyticalExaminer. If he did indeed search that may affect one of my "theories" so far

I don't think AE is on the thread right now, so I'll take the liberty of answering for him. I've listened to these pc's several times, and AE's transcription is accurate. Your question is answered at the bottom.

I left out of my post some relevant information re POI identification from the video conferences:

6/7 conference (video: http://www.theindychannel.com/video/28157482/index.html)

Qualters' preliminary statement
[discusses facts including going to CR/MB's and then JR's, without mentioning them by name]
3:57-4:30: (re JR, not named) ...that was the last person to see her that we know of. She's never been seen since. Now of course as you might imagine what we've been doing is we've been interviewing everybody that was with her Thursday afternoon, Thursday evening, and Friday morning... interviewing them and re-interviewing them. They've, uh, cooperated fully with letting us fully search their places, search their cars; that's all been done.

Q&A
circa 8:40-9:05 (rough transcr)
Q: And those are - would those be those POI you talked yesterday - you said about 10 POI, they've been cooperative, anyone done any polygraph tests or anything like that?
A: I don't want to go into the exact details of where we are in the investigation, but we've had a lot of cooperation with the POI. We don't have anyone we characterize as a suspect, but we do have - people that were with her, of course, are POI.

6/8 news conference (video - http://uk.news.yahoo.com/video/indianapoliswrtv-24115476/uncut-lauren-spierer-news-conference-6-8-25510222.html#crsl=%252Fvideo%252Findianapoliswrtv-24115476%252Funcut-lauren-spierer-news-conference-6-8-25510222.html)
circa 6:55-7:01
[following up re JW, not named]
Q: Is he currently here?
A: Yes.
Q: Was he here at the time; has he been questioned in connection with all this?
A: He is a person that we've interviewed, sure. (grimace?)

7:20-24
Q: How many polygraphs have you administered in this case?
A: We're working on the polygraphs now.

And additional content from Thu 6/9
~6:15-?
Q: ...do you have a better idea what may have happened to her than you, than you did on Monday?
A: I would have to say no. (shakes head; sad grimace)

And from Fri 6/10:
11:40-12:15
Q: Do you believe her boyfriend was with her at any point that night or during the early morning hours?
A: That's information that I don't want to go into the specifics of that yet.
Q: Have you spoken with her boyfriend?
A: Yes. (nodding head; open face?)
Q: And what's the situation there?
A: We continue to speak with him. He's cooperative.
Q: Is he one of the POI?
A: Certainly.
Q: Has he not been allowed to help with the search?
A: I don't know if he's - I think he's participated in the, uh, uh, volunteer searches.
[quick scan of the room; turns things over to the family]

 

[SmoothOperator]

I am just sickened to the very core of my being with what is happening.. This has zero to do with race, creed, ethnicity, religion, or socioeconomic class.. Tragic losses stemming from bad choices and decisions combined with self serving motives and pure and unadulterated selfishness stretch across all races, religions, and socioeconomic classes.. The uneducated just as well as the highly educated in the end are both capable of being narcisstic, self serving _________[each can choose their own word for what you'd like to call these type ppl]..

All in all the result remains the same we as a society have lost someone who had not even begun to have the chance to be a contribution to our society.. Working towards bettering the world that they lived in..siblings have lost a huge part of themselves in losing their brother or sister, and a mom and dad that has had their heart ripped out their chest due to someone's selfish, self serving choices that has forever taken their child from them.. never to hold, comfort, nor see their Childs smile, nor hear their Childs voice tell them "I love you mom" or " I love you daddy"..

All of this gone in the blink of an eye and for those responsible to have such little empathy for this broken family that opens themselves up on national television to plead for their daughters life.. The fact that these parents are literally in front of God and everyone of us begging their daughters "friends" to please put a stop to this agony beyond belief.. Please find it within the depths of your soul to have the courage to step forward and do what is the only thing left to *do.. The right thing.. Tell what they know and bring the closure and solace that these parents are literally begging for in front of the entire world.. If only for a moment turn the tables and picture that it is you instead of Lauren and it is your parents literally begging your friends to please help us find you!!! Wouldn't you expect, wouldn't you hope and pray to God that these "friends" of yours would at the very least step forward and tell all that they know In order for your family to be able to bring you home, lay you to rest with the dignity and respect that a human being deserves, and for your family to atleast have closure and not be left indefinitely(possibly many years)stuck in this hellacious nightmare of just not knowing...

I think anyone with tables turned would be forced to agree that in putting themselves in Laurens place and their family in Laurens family's place it is undeniable that they would expect, hope and pray those "friends" would be willing to do and say whatever it took In order to see that your life was not lost in vain.. That you received the respect to have this done for you..

Then I ask why? Why then can you not be that "friend" to Lauren in this nightmare? Why can you not be the one that ensures this young friend of yours whose life has been lost, why can you not be the one to ensure your friend is put to rest with the dignity and respect she more than deserves along with freeing this mom amd dad from the torturous hell within which they are presently living their daily lives..???

Lauren deserves more than to have her body disposed of as if she were nothing more than a common everyday piece of trash in which people throw in the garbage without so much as even a second thought.. This young girl NO MATTER WHAT any poor decisions she may have made does not deserve this.. She more than deserves dignity and respect of her body bei g brought home to her loved ones, namely this broken mom and dad who cannot and will not ever be able to take a single step forward in life until there is this closure brought to them.. They cannot do it alone, if they could believe me Laurem would have long since been home.. You, Lauren's friend, Lauren's confidant whom you two shared secrets, you shared many fun amd happy moments, you are the ONLY ONE THAT CAN NOW DO SOMETHING THAT ENSURES THAT LAUREN, YOUR FRIEND, YOUR CONFIDANT, YOUR GIRLFRIEND(and this is general use if the word gf.. NOT directed at JW
Individually, it applies TO ALL OF THEM)WITH WHO YOU SHARE SO VERY MANY HAPPY MEMORIES WITH.. ONLY YOU CAN NOW ENSURE THAT LAUREN RECEIVES THAT DIGNITY AND RESPECT THAT YOU KNOW IN YOUR HEART THAT THIS FRIEND YOU HAD IN LAUREN WOULD HAVE BEEN IMMEDIATELY WILLING TO DO FOR YOU!!!

This will never go away and you will never have peace within your soul nor within your mind until you do what you know is right.. Help her mom and dad bring her home...

 

[epiphany]

There's no crime scene. They'll hold out until a body is found.

 

[JeannaT]

What I've seen in other missing persons cases with one or more POI's and no real evidence, is a long stand-off, that can last seemingly forever. Haleigh Cummings case is one, 2.5 years now; Kyron Horman over a year, Hailey Dunn 6 months this weekend, just to name a few. All have POI's, named or not, and yet there is nothing LE has been able to do to obtain more information or find any of these missing people.

I do believe LE looked at the chance of a stranger abduction and probably with the new groups coming in to help, are talking about that again, as that would be standard. But from what LE and the family are saying and not saying, they believe that one or more of the people Lauren was with on the early morning hours of 6/3 knows exactly what happened to Lauren and where she is now. I would love to know if they have all the phone records they need, or are awaiting records.

Think of ALL the "smiley face" victims. They too were walking alone, drunk, in the wee hours. They were supposedly all (well, we don't know what in the world happened to them) taken by strangers. No one doubts this in their case - no one is trying to focus on their friends they went to the bar with. It's a given, to most observers, that somewhere on their walk they met with foul play from a stranger.

Why not in this case? Why don't we all view this the same - she was really too incapacitated to defend herself, she was an obvious and easy mark there all alone by herself and clearly intoxicated - why isn't the first thing that everyone thinks is of a stranger?

Seems to me that's the case. At any rate, there is one of the guys I think may have harmed her, but if that happened, I really don't think the others know.

 

[Glaucon]

Take a look at the Haleigh Cummings case. Three, possibly four, almost without a doubt know more than they've told. Three of them are in prison serving 15 and 25 year sentences on drug charges, and they're still holding out. Several others are likely to be withholding information, as well. Some of them are jailed, or have been during the two years and four months poor Haleigh's been missing. As a social group, they are at the opposite end of the spectrum from the characters in Lauren's circle. Not sure if that makes a difference except to point out that POI's in Haleigh's case don't have the means to take off for parts unknown and start new lives.

Thanks Bessie, that Haleigh Cummings case is interesting. I looked it up and found an interesting summary article. What struck me is the amount of manpower brought in to help with the case: 16 FBI agents! I hope that's an indication of what's going on behind the scenes in Bton.

 

[cluciano63]

Think of ALL the "smiley face" victims. They too were walking alone, drunk, in the wee hours. They were supposedly all (well, we don't know what in the world happened to them) taken by strangers. No one doubts this in their case - no one is trying to focus on their friends they went to the bar with. It's a given, to most observers, that somewhere on their walk they met with foul play from a stranger.

Why not in this case? Why don't we all view this the same - she was really too incapacitated to defend herself, she was an obvious and easy mark there all alone by herself and clearly intoxicated - why isn't the first thing that everyone thinks is of a stranger?

Seems to me that's the case. At any rate, there is one of the guys I think may have harmed her, but if that happened, I really don't think the others know.

I think LE has been unable to clear any of the people Lauren spent the evening with, probably have a number of conflicting stories and cannot find any trace of her on video after 3am...she had to be somewhere, walking alone, yet no one saw her, she did not pass any of the numerous cameras in town, etc...they may have evidence of a flurry of phone calls between 3-4:30AM for all we know. I think they have much more circumstantial evidence than they have shared, but nothing that points to one particular person. I don't think they went in assuming these guys harmed and hid Lauren. I don't believe that.

 

[bessie]

Thanks Bessie, that Haleigh Cummings case is interesting. I looked it up and found an interesting summary article. What struck me is the amount of manpower brought in to help with the case: 16 FBI agents! I hope that's an indication of what's going on behind the scenes in Bton.

Oh, and if you really wanna :waitasec:, check out the murders in Jennings, LA. The motivation for keeping quiet in that case is a little different, I should point out. Fear and corruption, mostly.

I know, I know...fftopic:

 

[epiphany]

I hear ya. I wish we knew more but we don't. Unfortunately, LE as per usual I imagine, is carefully selecting what it wants to tell us. I just don't think these POIs are avoiding talking to LE like some have said.

Sure. Some probably came in with their attorneys. Doesn't mean LE believed all their answers or all of the accounts of the morning hours.

 

[northsider]

I've been trying to catch up on all the prior information in the official stories, press conferences, message threads, etc., for the past few days. After reading all of these items, these are the primary questions/thoughts I have about things:

1. So CR gets jumped by JW's friends in the 5th floor elevator lobby at Smallwood. Is LS with CR when this happens? If they punched him because he had his hands all over LS, then why would they let her leave with him? And if all this went down, then...

2. Did JW's friends call/text him and tell him about the altercation? If no, then why? If so, did JW simply decide to sit at home and mope about his gf being with another guy?

3. A poster mentioned this earlier, and I thought it was a good point - both HT and LS knew JR, who lived next to CR and MB. Assuming LS had hung out at JR's townhouse before, it seems unlikely that she'd never met CR before the Indy 500 earlier that week.

4. JW texts LS throughout the night, then again in the morning, and Sports calls him and says the cell phone is there? So his first move is to go to LS' apartment to see if she's there. Then when she isn't, his second move is to call her parents and report her as missing. That seems to be the consensus from what I've read.

But if JWs friends had informed him that they punched CR and that CR left Smallwood with LS, wouldn't the next move be to go to CR's building and look for her? Obviously HT, who had let JW into the apartment, knew that CR and LS had been together that night.

5. Other than the altercation between CR and JW's friends, what happened during the 25 minutes they were at Smallwood?

6. The alleged LS phone call to DR doesn't make any sense. Even if LS was completely wasted, why would she choose to call DR about her phone, when the last place she saw DR was in the very same apartment she was (allegedly and currently) standing in? Why wouldn't she have called her roommate instead, who was with DR the last time she saw either of them?

Any insights or ideas? If I've missed something that helps to explain any of the above, please enlighten me. Thanks.

 

[jabberwocky]

I don't think AE is on the thread right now, so I'll take the liberty of answering for him. I've listened to this pc several times, and AE's transcription is accurate. Your question is answered at the bottom.

Thanks Bessie I totally missed that info...

 

[cluciano63]

It's disappointing hearing that there won't be any regular PC's, only in the event of breaking news. Not that it will change what is actually going on with the case, but it will seem like it is in a kind of limbo...it gives me a sinking feeling just because of exposure to so many other missing persons cases. Once the major organized searches are over, there may be weeks between news or even updates on old information.

Hoping LE has some info that is guiding their search plans for tomorrow...

 

[JeannaT]

It's disappointing hearing that there won't be any regular PC's, only in the event of breaking news. Not that it will change what is actually going on with the case, but it will seem like it is in a kind of limbo...it gives me a sinking feeling just because of exposure to so many other missing persons cases. Once the major organized searches are over, there may be weeks between news or even updates on old information.

Hoping LE has some info that is guiding their search plans for tomorrow...

I know. I have the same sinking feeling. When someone goes missing, at first it seems SO HOPEFUL the case will be solved - and then it kind of hits a rut like this one and it starts to seem doubtful there will ever be any answers . . . .

 

[British]

I've been trying to catch up on all the prior information in the official stories, press conferences, message threads, etc., for the past few days. After reading all of these items, these are the primary questions/thoughts I have about things:

1. So CR gets jumped by JW's friends in the 5th floor elevator lobby at Smallwood. Is LS with CR when this happens? If they punched him because he had his hands all over LS, then why would they let her leave with him? And if all this went down, then...

2. Did JW's friends call/text him and tell him about the altercation? If no, then why? If so, did JW simply decide to sit at home and mope about his gf being with another guy?

3. A poster mentioned this earlier, and I thought it was a good point - both HT and LS knew JR, who lived next to CR and MB. Assuming LS had hung out at JR's townhouse before, it seems unlikely that she'd never met CR before the Indy 500 earlier that week.

4. JW texts LS throughout the night, then again in the morning, and Sports calls him and says the cell phone is there? So his first move is to go to LS' apartment to see if she's there. Then when she isn't, his second move is to call her parents and report her as missing. That seems to be the consensus from what I've read.

But if JWs friends had informed him that they punched CR and that CR left Smallwood with LS, wouldn't the next move be to go to CR's building and look for her? Obviously HT, who had let JW into the apartment, knew that CR and LS had been together that night.

5. Other than the altercation between CR and JW's friends, what happened during the 25 minutes they were at Smallwood?

6. The alleged LS phone call to DR doesn't make any sense. Even if LS was completely wasted, why would she choose to call DR about her phone, when the last place she saw DR was in the very same apartment she was (allegedly and currently) standing in? Why wouldn't she have called her roommate instead, who was with DR the last time she saw either of them?

Any insights or ideas? If I've missed something that helps to explain any of the above, please enlighten me. Thanks.

I think that the answer to question #6 is key to the whole case. I also doubt that the call was initiated by LS. However, I dont think that DR is a POI or suspect or that he did anything wrong. One possibility may be that if LS was not doing well at that time (in a scenario that she might be having the beginning of OD symptoms) someone might have tried to call DR for help? That is a more believable scenario to me. Of course, all this is speculation. We simply dont know. And no one but the person who made the call knows.

 

[epiphany]

Thanks Bessie, that Haleigh Cummings case is interesting. I looked it up and found an interesting summary article. What struck me is the amount of manpower brought in to help with the case: 16 FBI agents! I hope that's an indication of what's going on behind the scenes in Bton.

According to Capt, Project Alert is coming in tomorrow to assist with investigative efforts:

Project ALERT is a corps of more than 170 retired federal, state, and local law-enforcement professionals who donate their time and expertise as consultants to the law-enforcement communities throughout the country.

The average Project ALERT Representative (PAR) has retired after working more than 20 years within a federal, state, or local, law-enforcement agency.

http://www.missingkids.com/missingkids/servlet/ServiceServlet?LanguageCountry=en_US&PageId=180