IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 - #13

[Jupiter812]

The above has no bearing on the current case or any of the people involved of course but there has been some discussion of IU/Bloomington in the media in regards to walking alone at night and how safe or unsafe that might be so I wanted to give my two cents on the matter.

I might be able to offer input about this if you point me to a/the discussion or something more specific. There are many factors that play into it.

 

[Jupiter812]

Looking back at the first thread on Lauren, they searched 3 lakes as early as June 5th-that is very unusual.

I think this is because a/some POI may have had a recreational boat if not a cottage on a lake. Also, Lake Monroe is in Hoosier Nat'l Forest which was one of the first places outside the city they searched. I believe this is because the disbarred fraternity was said to have dropped the pledges off there during hazing.

 

[SnowAngels]

I respectfully disagree with your conclusions. it obviously went too far that night/early morning. Lauren's all night partying has led to a three week nightmare for her family, regardless of whether she died of an OD, heart condition, one of the guys did her in, a stranger picked her up off the street, etc.

I'm not blaming her as such, but I can see where the roommate is coming from.

What I find odd about this statement is that HT seems to be placing the blame of what happened to LS on LS's decisions/LS herself. This is inconsistent with the fear one would feel if they felt it possible their friend was abducted. What I am picking up with this statement, is that it's more of a 'blame the victim' mentality she seems to be engaging in, and would be consistent in justifying a group coverup/group mentality.

It makes me very angry, if any of these sentiments would prove relevant to this case.

 

[PineMushroom]

I might be able to offer input about this if you point me to a/the discussion or something more specific. There are many factors that play into it.

I guess this characterization is what I am talking about in regards to IU/Bloomington, which might be the IU/Bloomington of today (I hope it is) but when I went to school there I am not sure how many women would feel the same about the place as described here, certainly no female I knew in:

http://www.indystar.com/article/201...pierer?odyssey=tab|mostpopular|text|FRONTPAGE

That Spierer, who weighed all of 90 pounds, had been drinking and who was barefoot and phoneless, would set out alone through town in the darkest hour of the morning seems -- to the sensibilities of older adults -- to be frighteningly risky.

But in Bloomington, home to 42,000 college students, with 30,000 of them living off campus, a place whose downtown is dotted with bars open until 3 a.m., and where the party is just getting started after midnight, such a story is not so unusual.

Kelly Wold, a 20-year-old employee of the Les Champs Elysees spa and salon, was walking alone in a striped sundress on 11th Street at 3:45 a.m. She was on her way home after a night drinking with friends. She walked right past 5 North Townhomes -- by Rossman's place, by Rosenbaum's. She didn't see Spierer. But she probably passed within 10 feet of where Spierer was last seen with friends. Wold's own roommate came in by herself at 4:20.

It was a warm night and not a bad one for walking, Wold recalls. But it was also quieter than most. Often, at 3:45 a.m., people are still partying with their front doors open. Not on the early morning of June 3. It was quiet.

Courtney Kraft, a 23-year-old student from Indianapolis, has made the trek through downtown at night before. Kraft lives at 5 North immediately between Rossman's place and Rosenbaum's. And she said she's never run into trouble walking alone at night. Never has she been whistled at or given a catcall. She said it just isn't a problem on the tight, well-traveled streets of late-night Bloomington.

I guess the point is that I find the story lacks a certain level of beware. Like I made clear, I was at IU in the '90s and maybe things are now safer and people are less fearful of being out late at night on their own because of safety or whatever.

I can't be the one only one that remembers the take-back-the-night campaigns on college campuses and the buddy system programs.

 

[Long-time Local]

- The area on the west side of College between 11th and 10th is pretty well lit. It's not nearly as dark as I remembered it being

- It IS possible to stand in front of JR's door and clearly see the corner of 11th and College. I had my doubts before due to the light in the pictures online, but it's much brighter in person than it is in the pictures.

Your great observations respectfully snipped for space. Yes! College is not as creepy dark as it used to be. Another reason I have such trouble with her disappearing on that block (not to say it couldn't have happened though-- I am also a fence sitter). It's interesting that you could clearly see the corner of 11th and College, though, because the night my partner and I were out, we could not. When we got home and looked at the photos, we both noted how much more visible / lighter the corner was in picture than it was in person. I wonder if something's changed.

 

[elmomom]

This case has probably influenced Purdue to enact a amnesty policy for alcohol and/or drug medical emergencies.
http://www.jconline.com/article/201...alcohol-tragedy?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|News

 

[TonyGatto]

Hi

I have been following this case for awhile now and keeping up with the threads, news reports, etc and feel I have good idea of the reported basic facts/timeline. However, I have watched (and rewatched) this Fox 59 report from Russ McQuaid, and I am confused about something.

http://www.fox59.com/news/wxin-atto...raph-in-spierer-case-20110627,0,3846816.story

Specifically, Russ McQaid says at around the 1:20 mark of the video, the following:

The clip then cuts immediately to video clip of Hadar Tamir and another person captioned June 9th and Hadar Tamir states on camera: and the other person (not identified) standing with Hadar Tamir says something about not being with her that night.

I was looking over earlier news reports such as this one for example from June 14:

http://cmsstage.gdn.indystar.com/ar...s-friends-family-continue?odyssey=mod|mostcom



There is no mention of Hadar Tamir being at Rosenbaum's in the news reports I have read or heard other than this above linked June 27 Fox 59 video.

So I guess my question is did Russ McQuaid misspeak in the video when stating that Hadar Tamir was in Rosenbaum's apartment that night? And if not, is this first time this information has been mentioned in the press?

Or, am I hearing that what is said in that video incorrectly? Is this just sloppy reporting and/or video editing?

There is something about what is said (or implied?) and just generally the way the video is put together that I find perplexing and curious. Does anyone else?

BTW, this is my first post on websleuths so I hope I did everything correctly in putting the above together. Thanks.

I've been hitting this one for a while -- which is why the time of the basketball game goes into play. The way it looks -- HT was up there with LS, JR, DR - EARLY IN THE NIGHT (Between 9 and 12m)

 

[Jupiter812]

I guess this characterization is what I am talking about in regards to IU/Bloomington, which might be the IU/Bloomington of today (I hope it is) but when I went to school there I am not sure how many women would feel the same about the place as described here, certainly no female I knew in:

http://www.indystar.com/article/201...pierer?odyssey=tab|mostpopular|text|FRONTPAGE



I guess the point is that I find the story lacks a certain level of beware. Like I made clear, I was at IU in the '90s and maybe things are now safer and people are less fearful of being out late at night on their own because of safety or whatever.

I can't be the one only one that remembers the take-back-the-night campaigns on college campuses and the buddy system programs.

Downtown Bloomington, because it is now so populated with students, takes on a completely different persona than it has during the daytime and evening. Campus does too. I've heard an IU admin say "You wouldn't recognize campus and community if you walked through it at 2 or 3 a.m." Scary, isn't it? Well, apparently it's not.

Yes, we have transients and homeless and individuals with mental issues, but I have not heard of one crime committed by this population. When I read comments on boards by students saying the bogeyman got LS I think this is due more to the bubble in which they live--their homogeneous group. (LS Smallwood circle is case in point. I read a comment by someone in her social circle from back East that it is "wierd", "uncanny", how their circle came here together and remains tight.)

There are assaults and rape being committed to young women on campus. The numbers tell it. I think this is due to binge drinking, lack of awareness, lack of education, existence of RUFFIES, and sexism/misogyny. Women and men walk at night with iPods in their ears on on cell phones. There have been a few cases of students not watching where they are going and getting hit by cars.

And now for my soapbox: In a more general sense I think young adults are less mature than in the 90's. Perhaps it's because of helicopter parenting. For example, talking to one's parents every day on the cell phone may sound sweet and close, but imo I think this is too joined at the hip.

P.S. I volunteered for a short while for Take Back the Night as a driver.

 

[northsider]

I guess this characterization is what I am talking about in regards to IU/Bloomington, which might be the IU/Bloomington of today (I hope it is) but when I went to school there I am not sure how many women would feel the same about the place as described here, certainly no female I knew in:

http://www.indystar.com/article/201...pierer?odyssey=tab|mostpopular|text|FRONTPAGE



I guess the point is that I find the story lacks a certain level of beware. Like I made clear, I was at IU in the '90s and maybe things are now safer and people are less fearful of being out late at night on their own because of safety or whatever.

I can't be the one only one that remembers the take-back-the-night campaigns on college campuses and the buddy system programs.

As someone who was a student at IU in the 90's and now live in town, I know exactly where you're coming from. There was a lot more paranoia in those days about the safety of campus and the surrounding areas --- remember those ridiculous videos they used to make us watch before registration (the "I never thought it could happen to me!" video)? That era 10-20 years ago was marked with a lot more 'bewareness', to turn your phrase.

But living here now, the attitude among students has changed a lot, and I think much of that has to do with the downtown area getting all these new apartment buildings like Smallwood and 10th & College (and three new ones coming online in the next 12 months). I remember coming back to live here in the mid-00s after being away for a while, and I was quite surprised at the changes. It really is a lot safer to walk around downtown now, from 11th all the way down to 3rd. In truth, it probably wasn't any less safe to walk around back in the 90's.

 

[woodpecker2k]

It's interesting that you could clearly see the corner of 11th and College, though, because the night my partner and I were out, we could not. When we got home and looked at the photos, we both noted how much more visible / lighter the corner was in picture than it was in person. I wonder if something's changed.

Just curious, but were you & northsider both looking towards 11th and college around the same time at night (midnight)? I know some nights are darker than others; I seem to recall early on in the threads somone mentioned that there was little (if any) moonlight on the night LS disappeared and I'm also guessing that the streets would appear much darker around 4:30am than they would around midnight (more lights in surrounding buildings probably switched off, etc.)?

 

[elmomom]

Since I am now pretty convinced that LS did in fact indeed live on the 5th floor, then during the brief altercation, where was HT and others? And, perhaps, were the people involved coming from HT/LS apartment?
I am at the point where I am convinced that the entire story dictated to us by HT is skewed to make her seem completely uninvolved and absent and to exculpate her friends as much as she can.

 

[northsider]

Just curious, but were you & northsider both looking towards 11th and college around the same time at night (midnight)? I know some nights are darker than others; I seem to recall early on in the threads somone mentioned that there was little (if any) moonlight on the night LS disappeared and I'm also guessing that the streets would appear much darker around 4:30am than they would around midnight (more lights in surrounding buildings probably switched off, etc.)?

Yes, I was looking around midnight, and that's a good point. There wasn't much moonlight last night, either, but the chance of lights being switched off is plausible.

 

[Berk13]

I guess this characterization is what I am talking about in regards to IU/Bloomington, which might be the IU/Bloomington of today (I hope it is) but when I went to school there I am not sure how many women would feel the same about the place as described here, certainly no female I knew in:

http://www.indystar.com/article/201...pierer?odyssey=tab|mostpopular|text|FRONTPAGE



I guess the point is that I find the story lacks a certain level of beware. Like I made clear, I was at IU in the '90s and maybe things are now safer and people are less fearful of being out late at night on their own because of safety or whatever.

I can't be the one only one that remembers the take-back-the-night campaigns on college campuses and the buddy system programs.

I bolded a section of your post above, and I think you are right on target with that statement.

I've been a student and/or professional living in Bloomington for the better part of the last 13 years. While I can't speak for all women who attended IU and/or lived in Bloomington in recent years, I can add to this discussion somewhat by telling you my point-of-view. Based on my own experiences, I think things have changed a bit from your description of the 90s. (Maybe a better term would be that female students' perceptions have changed since the 90s.) Even in the early 2000s my friends and I would sometimes walk home alone at night. Sometimes we would have other girlfriends with us, sometimes a boyfriend or male acquaintance, but if it came down to it, most of the women I knew would walk home alone at night - whether it be from the library, a party, or the bars. We didn't necessarily feel 100% safe doing so, but we would do it if we had to. Because of this particular case I recently had a lengthy conversation with several of my old college friends, and we all admitted to walking home alone often. We also realize NOW that it probably wasn't the best decision!

I know several college-aged women who attend IU now or attended in very recent years, and they have all said the same thing - "I used to walk those very same streets alone after the bars!" or "I walked home alone all the time in college after I'd been out drinking" etc. I think a lot of IU students feel like Bloomington is a safe little bubble and nothing bad will ever happen to them here. Also, if we look at Bloomington from the perspective of the students who come to IU from larger cities or metropolitan areas such as Chicago, New York City, etc., I'm sure Bloomington seems like a nice little safe place in comparison. It's not surprising to me that students from larger cities would feel a sense of false safety here and wouldn't think twice about walking alone at night, especially if they're only a few blocks from home.

On another note, here is an interesting article from the Wall Street Journal in 2008 about the popularity of Indiana University for East Coast students. It might give everyone a little more insight into how East Coasters feel about the community, and how they fit into the campus at IU (the article notes some of the tensions between Midwestern and East Coast students):

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122057234017401625.html

A few interesting quotes from that article:

"It almost feels like something's not right here. Everyone's just so friendly," said Steven Glassman, a 46-year-old attorney from East Hanover, N.J., after kissing his son, Jason, goodbye last Thursday.

Marty Lomazow, a 46-year-old real-estate broker from Woodbury, N.Y., lounging in the lobby before his final dinner with his daughter, said everyone seemed to love the cozy, small-town vibe, "but you'd speculate that you'd start to go crazy after a while. I know I'd go nuts."

During sophomore year, instead of pledging fraternities and sororities, many New Yorkers move into off-campus houses or an apartment complex called Smallwood, two blocks from a bar called Sports where Northeast natives congregate most nights in a corner. (Some students call that section of the bar the "L.I.E." -- after the Long Island Expressway.)

 

[Jupiter812]

BTW it's not just "sexism/misogyny" on the part of males. Feminism is all but non-existent. There is a tradition on campus whereby the females get all dolled up--like to the max. They stand in front of the dorms and guys in SUVs drive by to see who they want to pick up. It's like a meat market. Many of these gals are from small town USA, likely Indiana and the Midwest. This is their first stepping out and sometimes it ends in disaster.

 

[dodie20]

What I find odd about this statement is that HT seems to be placing the blame of what happened to LS on LS's decisions/LS herself. This is inconsistent with the fear one would feel if they felt it possible their friend was abducted. What I am picking up with this statement, is that it's more of a 'blame the victim' mentality she seems to be engaging in, and would be consistent in justifying a group coverup/group mentality.

It makes me very angry, if any of these sentiments would prove relevant to this case.

Early on, it was reported that the fight at the apt was because of who she was hanging out with. It was also inferred that she took off on her own, because she wanted too keep partying. I haven't seen any evidence of either. What I see, is a subtle transferrence of blame. Now, there may be some truth to these statements, but if so, I would expect to see some proof...not just these vague accusations. The public has been pretty much saturated with LS's partying ways, her drunkenness, speculation of an OD, her seeing different guys, and honestly? I don't see much to back it up. Details are being reported that have no business even being said...not if there's nothing to back it up. These people may not have a clue as to what happened to this girl, but where is their own accountability? There's a saying, (and it's a good one), that 'friends don't let friends drive drunk'. Well, friends don't let friends take off with questionable guys and friends don't let friends walk off barefoot into the night without a phone. When I was young, my friends and I had a drinking pact... we never let each other out of our sight, (not to even go to the bathroom), and under no circumstances, did we allow one of us, to leave with a guy. We looked out for each other. I can't believe noone was looking out for this girl. Actually, I've read a lot of contradictions...LS was drunk-she hadn't had a drink in several hours. She wanted to keep partying-she was sober enough to get herself home. For every story, there's a counter story. It seems, IMO, that the witnesses want to downplay their own behavior. This isn't the time for that. If they have something to say, it needs to be the unadorned truth. MOO.

 

[northsider]

Since I am now pretty convinced that LS did in fact indeed live on the 5th floor, then during the brief altercation, where was HT and others? And, perhaps, were the people involved coming from HT/LS apartment?
I am at the point where I am convinced that the entire story dictated to us by HT is skewed to make her seem completely uninvolved and absent and to exculpate her friends as much as she can.

See, this is why I don't trust the MSM stories that detail the evening, because outside of LE's incomplete discussions of what's on the video, nearly all our "information" has come from:

- HT (who may or may not have an agenda)
- CR's lawyer (who definitely does)
- JR's lawyer (who definitely does)
- A few comments in video story from DR (who was part of the night's proceedings)

...and that's really it. Not sure I trust the motives of the people who have gone on record so far.

 

[elmomom]

See, this is why I don't trust the MSM stories that detail the evening, because outside of LE's incomplete discussions of what's on the video, nearly all our "information" has come from:

- HT (who may or may not have an agenda)
- CR's lawyer (who definitely does)
- JR's lawyer (who definitely does)
- A few comments in video story from DR (who was part of the night's proceedings)

...and that's really it. Not sure I trust the motives of the people who have gone on record so far.

Add to that, the family of LS was the first mentioning that altercation. Then LE denied it, and LS family went out publicly to say that they never ever said anything about it, it was a lie that they did. Well, it turns out that the cat was out of the bag, and it became an accepted part of the tale. But that interesting history, coupled with the fact that all of the info we have gotten seems untrustworthy, makes me believe that there is so much more information that is useful in the real details of who and what was going on in that encounter.

 

[PineMushroom]

Thanks to the above for an update on B-Towns Downtown changes as it has been a long time since I was there. In regard to this case I am not one that believes that stranger abduction on North College to be the likely scenario but still open to the possibility of course.

 

[TonyGatto]

See, this is why I don't trust the MSM stories that detail the evening, because outside of LE's incomplete discussions of what's on the video, nearly all our "information" has come from:

- HT (who may or may not have an agenda)
- CR's lawyer (who definitely does)
- JR's lawyer (who definitely does)
- A few comments in video story from DR (who was part of the night's proceedings)

...and that's really it. Not sure I trust the motives of the people who have gone on record so far.

Good points by you and Elmomom. For all HT has had to say, except for saying she was with LS at 12:30 when LS left to go out (again) HT provides scant details about what SHE, HT, was doing. She makes it a point to tell us what JR was doing, that DR got the phone call, that LS partied hard once too many, but so, so, little about her own whereabouts. I don't think HT has anything do with LS's disappearance, not even sure she is a POI, but her choice of what to say, how much to say, is very interesting.

And you're right -- HUNDREDS OF HOURS OF VIDEOS -- LE knows plenty more, even if they can't solve the case just yet, they have so much we don't (as it should be).

 

[Jupiter812]

A few interesting quotes from that article:

My major snip. Thanks for the WSJ article link! There have been more of these types of articles in the past year. Add to this that IU is one of the most beautiful campuses in the nation. Truly.

City of Bloomington is at a tipping point. I fear the addition of three more student apt buildings will put us over the top. We're also a top choice for retirees. Wonder if this will continue. Would hope so to balance the ages.