IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 - #14

[Alliecog]

Drive it back? Your funny.

The car carriers come and pick up their BMW's and haul it back to NY while they fly back.

I wouldnt make that assumption for people living on the east coast, NY/NJ is 10-12 hours, most people drive it with a friend. I've done it by myself several times.

 

[cluciano63]

There could be charges down the line, in a few years perhaps, if Lauren never surfaces alive, and if LE has been able to put together a circumstantial case. Say they do get some cell pings coming from a desolate area at 5am or so on 6/3, belonging to one of the POI's and that LE has been able to receive some information from some of the others that also points to that same person, i.e. if some or even one of these students has knowledge and eventually shares it with police. And perhaps that same POI had changed his story more than once when originally approached. It might not be a strong case, but it might be something LE could put together in the future, to show a jury the sequence of events of the evening, detail the various changes in statements given to LE, show that this same person's phone was off in the hinderlands an hour after anyone saw Lauren, etc...

But it is tough to try this kind of case, with no apparent motive, no crime scene, no weapon, no witnesses. I truly hope that Lauren's parents don't have to wait years, like so many other parents around the country (and world) for a resolution, to at least have Lauren back. A civil case may be possible as well, in a few years, but only if the family is willing to declare Lauren dead, and some families can't do that.

There is a website that details "no body" cases back 100 years or so, but most do have at least minimal crime scenes and rather obvious suspects. It is really hard to prove one of these cases and in Lauren's case, would be especially difficult, I would imagine, as so many things can happen to a person on a wild night like this one seems to have been. LE would have to be able to show that the only thing that could have happened was murder.

 

[Btown]

I wouldnt make that assumption for people living on the east coast, NY/NJ is 10-12 hours, most people drive it with a friend. I've done it by myself several times.

Except I live here and watch it happen.

 

[Skigirl]

While we deal with very little info from LE this week, let us all be careful not to fill our sleuthing time with judgements about alcohol and drugs. They were almost certainly key to this case, but until we get more details confirmed, IMO we need to focus on facts, and not character assessments re: that drug/alcohol use. Lauren is missing. Her friends are chosing not to speak. Her parents are aching. We are searching. THAT is the focus, again, IMHO....

If I could thank you a hundred times for this comment, I would.

 

[SmoothOperator]

Here are 2 separate articles that answer alot of questions about how long does a body have to be at a specific area before being moved for a dog to be able to pick up scent that human remains were present.. And also how long after a body was moved from that area would the dogs still be able to pick up the human decomp scent.. It's truly amazing IMO..

One of the questions surrounding human cadaver dogs is how soon after death they can recognise a corpse, and how long a "fresh" corpse must remain in one place for a dog to detect that it has been there. In a study published last year, the forensic pathologist Lars Oesterhelweg, then at the University of Bern in Switzerland, and colleagues tested the ability of three Hamburg State Police cadaver dogs to pick out – of a line-up of six new carpet squares – the one that had been exposed for no more than 10 minutes to a recently deceased person.

Several squares had been placed beneath a clothed corpse within three hours of death, when some organs and many cells of the human body are still functioning. Over the next month, the dogs did hundreds of trials in which they signalled the contaminated square with 98 per cent accuracy, falling to 94 per cent when the square had been in contact with the corpse for only two minutes. The research concluded that cadaver dogs were an "outstanding tool" for crime-scene investigation.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/sc...es-835047.html

http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...&md5=5aa38e5f6e47749376fb471159cc0628_NWe-tAb
Quote:
Material and methods
Carpet squares were used as an odor transporting media after they had been contaminated with the scent of two recently deceased bodies (PMI < 3 h). The contamination occurred for 2 min as well as 10 min without any direct contact between the carpet and the corpse. Comparative searches by the dogs were performed over a time period of 65 days (10 min contamination) and 35 days (2 min contamination).

Results
The results of this study indicate that the well-trained cadaver dog is an outstanding tool for crime scene investigation displaying excellent sensitivity (75&#8211;100), specificity (91&#8211;100), and having a positive predictive value (90&#8211;100), negative predictive value (90&#8211;100) as well as accuracy (92&#8211;100).

 

[Ven]

Just a couple other thoughts:

1. Wade Steffey was a Purdue student, I don't remember if he was drunk or not, but he lost his keys and tried to get back to his room through a maintenance entry -- the room he broke into was pitch black, and before he could find a light or the door out, he grabbed hold of some electrical equipment and instantly electrocuted himself.

Since nobody hardly ever went in that room, it was weeks or months before he was ever found, in the same building he lived even.

2. Also there was a recent story of a young woman who tried to sneak into a restaurant through the ventilation system, and got stuck and died in the duct work. She was missing for weeks before she was found up there.

What on earth got in her mind to crawl into a ventilation system ... who knows?

-----

Given the state Lauren was in, who knows what kind of nonsense thoughts might have gone through her head?
Could it be an accident like the two examples above?

Here are the possibilities IMO, with #1 the most likely, and on down the list:

1a. One of the men that night harmed her and did away with her
1b. The (ex?) boyfriend did it

2. She OD'd and someone(s) panicked and got rid of her body.

3. Some kind of messed up event with several people present, could have been like the Amanda Knox thing?
I can never get rid of my suspicion of the girls ...

4. Accident on her way home like the two stories above.

5. Stranger abduction

 

[jjenny]

Yes, it was reported that Purdue's student blood alcohol level was above the legal limit, but it was not a lethal level. He managed to get into the electrical closet and was electrocuted. Despite the searches, the body was not found for two months. So presumably similar thing could have happened to LS, especially if instead of Smallwood she decided to head off somewhere else.
http://www.purdue.edu/uns/x/2007b/070702RimkusSteffey.html

 

[blazelet]

Yes, it was reported that Purdue's student blood alcohol level was above the legal limit, but it was not a lethal level. He somehow managed to get into the electrical closet and was electrocuted. Despite the searches, the body was not found for two months. So presumably similar thing could have happened to LS, especially if instead of Smallwood she decided to head off somewhere else.
http://www.purdue.edu/uns/x/2007b/070702RimkusSteffey.html

There are sooooo many stories like this from around Indiana. Seems to be a yearly thing that a kid disappears and turns up to have mistakenly died due to some misjudgement based on alcohol. It seems unlikely with the detail of the searches that have been conducted ... but they looked pretty hard for Wade Steffey and he was found right on campus 2 months later.

 

[phantomthought]

300+ hrs. of video.So many camera's in the vicinity.Yet no sign of police looking at another vehicle or asking the public's help in locating other vehicles.What their were no other cars caught on camera driving in the direction of 10 and college at 4:30 in the morning?Or are they not so interested in the random " car " theory.

 

[Ven]

Are there cameras on College between the corner JR said he saw her, and Smallwood?

 

[cluciano63]

300+ hrs. of video.So many camera's in the vicinity.Yet no sign of police looking at another vehicle or asking the public's help in locating other vehicles.What their were no other cars caught on camera driving in the direction of 10 and college at 4:30 in the morning?Or are they not so interested in the random " car " theory.

There probably were other cars but LE could see that they never stopped or made any sort of pause or other action that beared further interest. But I doubt there were very many, isn't this highly pedestrian traffic, if any, at 4AM?

 

[jjenny]

Are there cameras on College between the corner JR said he saw her, and Smallwood?

I believe so (based on the map provided in the beginning of each thread). There is also a Waffle house across the street that presumably should have cameras. Not sure if they are going to catch someone walking across the street, though.

 

[jjenny]

There are sooooo many stories like this from around Indiana. Seems to be a yearly thing that a kid disappears and turns up to have mistakenly died due to some misjudgement based on alcohol. It seems unlikely with the detail of the searches that have been conducted ... but they looked pretty hard for Wade Steffey and he was found right on campus 2 months later.

There are also plenty of cases where students walked off after the night of drinking and the bodies were eventually found in the body of water. Those cases are usually ruled accidental, although there some pretty wild theories out there (such as smilie face killer) that those were not accidents.

 

[IndyMom]

http://www.heraldtimesonline.com/stories/2011/06/30/news.qp-0075723.sto

If you read this article, it is clear that everyone, including Lauren, had problems with substance abuse. This is one of the cleaner articles I have read that consolidates that theory. hate to say it, but I am beginning to lose sympathy here. I would suggest that after the PC tomorrow, attention should be shifted. It should not be shifted to the cliche DARE 'Don't Do Drugs'. Rather, it should focus on HOW these tragic things happen to seemingly good people, who had no intention of harming themselves, or others. Substance abuse is a mental disorder. There are ways to help, but it takes time, patience, and practice. it appears Lauren Spierer had a choice here. She was arrested previously. Nearly everyone she was with (confirmed) that night had prior convictions as well. It will not be 'all right', things don't just 'work out'. Anyone with these type of history should AVOID situations that would make them want to indulge, for it is a DISEASE that must be treated. I hope we find Lauren, I really do. However, in the past few days I have had a massive paradigm shift. If you don't want to have bad things happen to you, don't hang out with people who cannot control their actions and are menaces to society. Everyone always thinks they are invincible. "It won't happen to me!". This is a tragic story! But, I have to admit, I am beginning to agree with some people here: why is the media portraying Lauren Spierer as completely innocent? It appears, at least via these articles, that she had a problem. The underlying theme to this entire investigation shouldn't necessarily be that her friends are murders (though, they may be?). It should be that drugs and alcohol can kill you, and if you have a problem, you need to get help.

I hope we find her; but I also hope this is a wake-up call for many, many people. College kids party. We drink, we smoke pot. But, getting arrested multiple times and being charged is not very normal. I attended Purdue for my undergrad, MIT for my grad, and now am a PhD at Yale (engineering); I know that college kids party.

But trust me, there is a lesson to this. Just my opinion.

I agree with you. Seems like they all just thought they could pay their way out of the charges, and some did so more than once. Unfortunately, being charged isn't the only thing that can go wrong when you use drugs/alcohol.

This is still a very sad situation. We all make bad decisions in life, sometimes repeatedly. And although it doesn't mean that we deserve something bad to happen, we should understand that the risk is there. Hopefully all of these kids learn from this and make better decisions in the future.

 

[British]

Just a couple other thoughts:

1. Wade Steffey was a Purdue student, I don't remember if he was drunk or not, but he lost his keys and tried to get back to his room through a maintenance entry -- the room he broke into was pitch black, and before he could find a light or the door out, he grabbed hold of some electrical equipment and instantly electrocuted himself.

Since nobody hardly ever went in that room, it was weeks or months before he was ever found, in the same building he lived even.

2. Also there was a recent story of a young woman who tried to sneak into a restaurant through the ventilation system, and got stuck and died in the duct work. She was missing for weeks before she was found up there.

What on earth got in her mind to crawl into a ventilation system ... who knows?

-----

Given the state Lauren was in, who knows what kind of nonsense thoughts might have gone through her head?
Could it be an accident like the two examples above?

Here are the possibilities IMO, with #1 the most likely, and on down the list:

1a. One of the men that night harmed her and did away with her
1b. The (ex?) boyfriend did it

2. She OD'd and someone(s) panicked and got rid of her body.

3. Some kind of messed up event with several people present, could have been like the Amanda Knox thing?
I can never get rid of my suspicion of the girls ...

4. Accident on her way home like the two stories above.

5. Stranger abduction

IMO, #1 is very unlikely (no evidence to suggest that) and I am convinced it is not the case. #3 and #4 are also totally unrealistic. #5 is a very small chance based on what we know.

#2 is by far the most likely scenario. Of course, if that is what happened whoever did it (one or more than one persons) and "got rid of the body" is (are) guilty of murder. Because "getting rid" of the body in such a scenario is murder. There is no way they could have been sure that she could not be revived. Even if she had no pulse and not breathing, she could have still been saved if they would start CPR and call 911. Whoever disposed the body (if that's what happened) in an OD scenario is a murderer.

 

[TonyGatto]

While we deal with very little info from LE this week, let us all be careful not to fill our sleuthing time with judgements about alcohol and drugs. They were almost certainly key to this case, but until we get more details confirmed, IMO we need to focus on facts, and not character assessments re: that drug/alcohol use. Lauren is missing. Her friends are chosing not to speak. Her parents are aching. We are searching. THAT is the focus, again, IMHO....

Fact: Witness says she LS falling down at 3:38am outside 10th and college
Fact: Source says LS was talking about all the drugs she had taken at Kilroy's
Fact: LS and her friends have many fb photos and tweets that show alcohol abuse and drug use
Fact: Police in answer to a specific question say they have not ruled-out an overdose
Fact: Many people at IU say LS and her friends were into drugs
Fact: All involved have been sited for alcohol and/or drug violations and/or arrest
Fact: LS should not have been allowed in a bar (underage), especially with Indiana strict regulations
Fact: Kilroy's has been sighted

 

[cba1956]

Fact: Witness says she LS falling down at 3:38am outside 10th and college
Fact: Source says LS was talking about all the drugs she had taken at Kilroy's
Fact: LS and her friends have many fb photos and tweets that show alcohol abuse and drug use
Fact: Police in answer to a specific question say they have not ruled-out an overdose
Fact: Many people at IU say LS and her friends were into drugs
Fact: All involved have been sited for alcohol and/or drug violations and/or arrest
Fact: LS should not have been allowed in a bar (underage), especially with Indiana strict regulations
Fact: Kilroy's has been sighted

Understood. But I want more information to be confirmed about how all these things fit into what actually HAPPENED to Lauren. The alcohol/drug connection has been discussed ad nauseum. HOWEVER, we still don't know where Lauren is. I believe it is like a puzzle - we have the drug/alcohol part, no need to look any further for it. WHERE ARE THE OTHER PIECES? That's my point. And BTW, TG - I love your work!

 

[coltsgal]

Fact: Witness says she LS falling down at 3:38am outside 10th and college
Fact: Source says LS was talking about all the drugs she had taken at Kilroy's
Fact: LS and her friends have many fb photos and tweets that show alcohol abuse and drug use
Fact: Police in answer to a specific question say they have not ruled-out an overdose
Fact: Many people at IU say LS and her friends were into drugs
Fact: All involved have been sited for alcohol and/or drug violations and/or arrest
Fact: LS should not have been allowed in a bar (underage), especially with Indiana strict regulations
Fact: Kilroy's has been sighted

Fact 1: the fact is that the witness did state that, but it hasn't been proven as factual information. there's a difference.

Fact 5: Hearsay. Cannot be stated as fact.

 

[phantomthought]

There probably were other cars but LE could see that they never stopped or made any sort of pause or other action that beared further interest. But I doubt there were very many, isn't this highly pedestrian traffic, if any, at 4AM?

I will start with what we agree on.A 15 to 20 min. window at 4:30 in the morning how many vehicles are we talking.How much vehicle traffic is on the road at that time.Where we disagree is since they do not have the point were she was abducted (if that is the case) on camera the vehicle not stopping or pausing when it is caught on camera should not matter.I think any car caught during that time frame heading in the direction of the three blocks she walked home should be reason enough for the police to want to talk to the driver.What else do the police have to go on.Unless for some reason they are not looking at a abduction of the street.

 

[cluciano63]

IMO, #1 is very unlikely (no evidence to suggest that) and I am convinced it is not the case. #3 and #4 are also totally unrealistic. #5 is a very small chance based on what we know.

#2 is by far the most likely scenario. Of course, if that is what happened whoever did it (one or more than one persons) and "got rid of the body" is (are) guilty of murder. Because "getting rid" of the body in such a scenario is murder. There is no way they could have been sure that she could not be revived. Even if she had no pulse and not breathing, she could have still been saved if they would start CPR and call 911. Whoever disposed the body (if that's what happened) in an OD scenario is a murderer.

It would not be murder if they did cause her death, they might be charged with improper disposal of a body, or failure to seek medical attention, at a stretch. And only manslaughter if it could be proven one of them gave her the drugs knowing they could cause her death. All of these would be hard to prove if she died from drugs. But if she is found after cause of death can be determined and someone can be linked to the location, it might go a different way. JMO