IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 - #17

[Frogzilla]

It is a crying shame, that anyone...specifically LE would have any objective other than finding Lauren. Their own protection of integrity OR the desire to control the evidence to prosecute a suspect should be a FAR second....although it doesn't seem to be the case too often.

Thank you for expanding on my post. Unfortunately we have seen a series of events play out like this in many MP cases, we should not naturally assume it, but we can't be naive to it either. Also, look at the C. Anthony trial for any doubts how hard it can be to convict somebody of a heinous crime. She was indicted by a grand jury on charges of 1st degree murder BEFORE they ever found Caylee's body(other evidence was found with her remains) and before the results came back from the evidence of decomposition in the trunk of her car. We know the rest of that story.

 

[OldSteve]

I was in Bloomington last week and noticed that the sidewalk south of 11th on the west side of College was torn up. It would not have been comfortable to walk barefoot on the gravel. Does anyone here know the condition of that sidewalk on June 3?

I mentioned this before, will say it again, I can't imagine walking on gravel without shoes...
can't imagine doing that in the dark alley ways - no fear of stepping on broken glass?

Also, doing that (walking without shoes) would be a tip off to anyone seeing her that she's under the influence - making her easy prey....

No shoes is something the Campus PD look for when looking those under the influence - based on what I've seen on Campus PD shows...

 

[soyesterday]

Hey guys. I know after all this time hanging out on websleuths, i should know this stuff. I don't want to google it, cuz well i really just don't want it on my search history! I don't want to sound morbid or anything, but is there something that happens to a body as soon as someone dies? Like bodily fluids being released or something? Do u t know what i mean? Does that stuff happen right away? And when does "decomposition" start to happen? This is stuff i've always wanted to know but have been to afraid to ask. Like if Lauren did die while she was with JR or JW, would there be some kind of dna proof that one of them was with her when she died?
If she was killed intentionally, but was possibly strangled or suffocated or something, then there wouldn't be any blood right? So would the killer easily be able to bring her somewhere else to put her body?
I HATE asking all these questions.

 

[cluciano63]

Hey guys. I know after all this time hanging out on websleuths, i should know this stuff. I don't want to google it, cuz well i really just don't want it on my search history! I don't want to sound morbid or anything, but is there something that happens to a body as soon as someone dies? Like bodily fluids being released or something? Do u t know what i mean? Does that stuff happen right away? And when does "decomposition" start to happen? This is stuff i've always wanted to know but have been to afraid to ask. Like if Lauren did die while she was with JR or JW, would there be some kind of dna proof that one of them was with her when she died?
If she was killed intentionally, but was possibly strangled or suffocated or something, then there wouldn't be any blood right? So would the killer easily be able to bring her somewhere else to put her body?
I HATE asking all these questions.

It really depends on how she died (if she did.) If she passed out and never awoke, or had a heart attack or a stroke of some kind, there might be nothing that showed anything other than that she was there in a certain apartment. If she was removed quickly from the apartment, not even sure if human remains-dogs would pick up a scent...a very good one might. And as you said, if she ws suffocated, for instance, there wouldn't be a "crime scene." There are a lot of ways to die without leaving behind a violent scene, I guess...

 

[soyesterday]

It really depends on how she died (if she did.) If she passed out and never awoke, or had a heart attack or a stroke of some kind, there might be nothing that showed anything other than that she was there in a certain apartment. If she was removed quickly from the apartment, not even sure if human remains-dogs would pick up a scent...a very good one might. And as you said, if she ws suffocated, for instance, there wouldn't be a "crime scene." There are a lot of ways to die without leaving behind a violent scene, I guess...

Thanks for your quick answer. I've always wondered if there was a sign right away that could picked up when someone died. I always thought there was a "loss" of fluids or something. How long does that usually take? Do u know?

 

[cluciano63]

Thanks for your quick answer. I've always wondered if there was a sign right away that could picked up when someone died. I always thought there was a "loss" of fluids or something. How long does that usually take? Do u know?

I was in my mom's room when she died...and I didn't notice anything at all until I realized I could not hear her breathing anymore. And then it was more than an hour before the nurses moved her and there were no visible signs, fluids, odors, etc...so I really think it depends on how you die?

I wish we knew if LE did use trained human-remains/decomposition dogs, though, just to know...

 

[3doglady]

I was in my mom's room when she died...and I didn't notice anything at all until I realized I could not hear her breathing anymore. And then it was more than an hour before the nurses moved her and there were no visible signs, fluids, odors, etc...so I really think it depends on how you die?

I wish we knew if LE did use trained human-remains/decomposition dogs, though, just to know...

I used to be a nurse. Sometimes it happens immediately, sometimes not. Usually when fluids are released immediately it is urine and bowel movement due to relaxation of those muscles. Decomp fluid is later.

 

[rlc]

It is a crying shame, that anyone...specifically LE would have any objective other than finding Lauren. Their own protection of integrity OR the desire to control the evidence to prosecute a suspect should be a FAR second....although it doesn't seem to be the case too often.

If the police botch an investigation, or lose control of the evidence such that a guilty party goes free, and the guy goes on to murder someone else, I would imagine that the second victim's parents would disagree with this statement. Effective investigation/prosecution is also prevention.

 

[soyesterday]

I was in my mom's room when she died...and I didn't notice anything at all until I realized I could not hear her breathing anymore. And then it was more than an hour before the nurses moved her and there were no visible signs, fluids, odors, etc...so I really think it depends on how you die?

I wish we knew if LE did use trained human-remains/decomposition dogs, though, just to know...

Ok that makes sense...i was in the room when my aunt died of cancer too
They obviously whisked all of us kids right out and i wouldn't have known anything being only a teenager anyway, so i've wondered that for a long time.
Thank you.

I wish we knew if LE did use those kind of dogs too. ????

 

[soyesterday]

I used to be a nurse. Sometimes it happens immediately, sometimes not. Usually when fluids are released immediately it is urine and bowel movement due to relaxation of those muscles. Decomp fluid is later.

Yah those are the kinds of things i've heard that are released immediately. I also heard that can happen w/ a seizure sometimes too?
That's kind of humiliating, isnt' it? I mean obviously DEATH is much worse, but i mean for those kinds of things to happen, if they do, right away....seems like it'd be....i dunno....embarassing and a "mess" at a crime scene for a murderer to "clean up". I hope i'm making sense. I'm not trying to sound wierd or anything.
And one more question....when you say decomp fluid is later....is that usually as in hours or days?

 

[soyesterday]

I know i'm asking a lot of questions that i usually don't ask. But i'm just wondering if Lauren died in JR's or JW's care, how long would they have had w/ her body before there started to be some kind of "evidence" that was deceased while w/ them? Do you know what i mean?

 

[Darcyline]

Someone posted an article earlier that said that dogs can smell decomp within a pretty short time period. Like, 2 hours. But...that definitely leaves a window in my mind that a dead body could have been sitting for an hour and not necessarily be detected. Very frustrating.

 

[soyesterday]

Man....i just can't imagine having friends like these. I'm married and don't "hang out" w/ a lot of guy friends, but i do have guys friends that i keep in contact w/ on fb and by email and texts and stuff. I actually think i wrote a long thing about this before, but i just can't wrap my head around it. I would trust any of these guys to make sure i was "ok" and not hurt me in any way. And wouldn't just let me walk off from place to place by myself even if i wasn't drunk or drugged. Maybe i'm way too trusting. And i've been sexually abused all through my teenage years too. But i trust my guys friends! And my husband's guy friends too! Is that wierd?
Maybe there is really noone we can trust these days.
I mean boyfriends kill their own girlfriends. Husbands kill their own wives. Guys kill the mother of their children, etc...
Best friends kill best friends.
It's freaking scary!

 

[soyesterday]

Darcyline,
It won't let me "thanks" your post. Weird huh? But thank you for responding.

 

[Carmen101]

I believe that JR had to admit that LS was in his apt. because HT and MB both made statements to that effect.

Wasn’t it MB’s attorney who said that 2 or 3 other people saw LS after she left the CR/MB apt.? How would MB know that?

Perhaps MB accompanied LS to JR’s apt., partied a little, then went back to his place.

Who was at JR’s apt. when MB left?

 

[bessie]

Someone posted an article earlier that said that dogs can smell decomp within a pretty short time period. Like, 2 hours. But...that definitely leaves a window in my mind that a dead body could have been sitting for an hour and not necessarily be detected. Very frustrating.

I posted this link a couple of threads back.
http://www.pawsoflife.org/Library/HRD/Oesterhelweg 1998.pd

Using Hamburg police dogs, tests were conducted with two bodies deceased for less than two hours. The deceased died in hospital and their bodies wrapped in clean blankets before exposure to the carpet squares. One body was in contact with carpet squares for 2 minutes, the other for 10 minutes. In a series of searches using the contaminated squares and control, non-contaminated squares, the dogs had great success detecting the contaminated squares even after 35 days and 65 days respectively. Interesting read!

 

[Carmen101]

About LS's roommates:

HT and another roommate said in an early TV interview that they were "always" partying with Lauren, but not that night. Really? Why not? What was different about that night?

HT said Lauren "went too far" this time. How does she know that? HT said she and her friends went to JR's "all the time last year." Could she have been at JR's party earlier in the evening and have seen LS there?

Perhaps HT was also there later, maybe with DR. Maybe they decided to go back to Smallwood and LS wanted to stay at JR's and continue to party.

I have always thought HT's "too far" comment sounded critical of LS. Maybe she was angry at LS for not going home to Smallwood with her.

Maybe the 4:15 call was to DR and HT because, as has been suggested, HT was with DR, and JR knew that.

 

[Berk13]

I believe that JR had to admit that LS was in his apt. because HT and MB both made statements to that effect.

Wasn’t it MB’s attorney who said that 2 or 3 other people saw LS after she left the CR/MB apt.? How would MB know that?

I snipped this quote from your post - it looks like it was CR's attorney who said that:

http://www.lohud.com/article/201106...ion-has-no-memory-their-last-moments-together

Here's a quote from the article:

"Salzmann said Rossman was not the last one to see Spierer that morning; three or four others saw her after Rossman."

The three or four others would likely be MB, JR, and JR's out-of-town guest (not sure who would be the fourth). I assume CR's attorney would know that information because the guys probably all talked the next day when they realized she was missing and discussed the details of the previous evening. I imagine CR probably reported all of that to his attorney.

 

[Berk13]

About LS's roommates:

HT and another roommate said in an early TV interview that they were "always" partying with Lauren, but not that night. Really? Why not? What was different about that night?

HT said Lauren "went too far" this time. How does she know that? HT said she and her friends went to JR's "all the time last year." Could she have been at JR's party earlier in the evening and have seen LS there?

Perhaps HT was also there later, maybe with DR. Maybe they decided to go back to Smallwood and LS wanted to stay at JR's and continue to party.

I have always thought HT's "too far" comment sounded critical of LS. Maybe she was angry at LS for not going home to Smallwood with her.

Maybe the 4:15 call was to DR and HT because, as has been suggested, HT was with DR, and JR knew that.

I understand your theory here. My only concern with it is that if HT really was at JR's at some point in the evening or partying with that group that night, I'm sure one of the guys would've ratted her out by now. I just don't think they would stand by and let her lie about her whereabouts that night. If she was at JR's, someone would've made that public knowledge by now in my opinion.

 

[Missing Budweiser]

I think some people are putting too much emphasis on HT's comment about Lauren going "too far." Awhile back there was a discussion about HT being too critical of Lauren and maybe having more knowledge of what took place. I think it's just her frustration of knowing that if Lauren would have stayed in or at least been in a different state of mind that this wouldn't have happened. I have a history of alcoholism/substance abuse and have had many "close" friends(at least at the time) and a sibling(twin brother) who have taken it "too far" many times which led to severe consequences. I have always had a burning anger and resentment knowing that what happened could have easily been avoided.

About LS's roommates:

HT and another roommate said in an early TV interview that they were "always" partying with Lauren, but not that night. Really? Why not? What was different about that night?

HT said Lauren "went too far" this time. How does she know that? HT said she and her friends went to JR's "all the time last year." Could she have been at JR's party earlier in the evening and have seen LS there?

Perhaps HT was also there later, maybe with DR. Maybe they decided to go back to Smallwood and LS wanted to stay at JR's and continue to party.

I have always thought HT's "too far" comment sounded critical of LS. Maybe she was angry at LS for not going home to Smallwood with her.

Maybe the 4:15 call was to DR and HT because, as has been suggested, HT was with DR, and JR knew that.