IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 - #21

[imkeylime]

Good thought. I've been wondering if she left the phone on purpose as an explanation to JW as to why she didn't hook up with him. But it sounds as though she was not in shape to be making rational, intentional decisions.

Now that's a fresh thought, and it might explain why JW was edgy to find her as well. If they had been texting, for instance, and then she left the phone, cutting him off, if you will. Still not sure why she'd leave the shoes ... she could have told him she dropped the phone or something. But that might have not been her decision.

Although phones are essential to most kids, I'm sure CR had one on him as well, so maybe she would have been ok with ditching hers for awhile? IDK ... her decision making does sound impaired, but maybe that would have been a decision she wouldn't usually make, if that makes sense.

 

[Jupiter812]

I don't think I have posted my Xanax "research" here have I? I asked my brother who I know always loved Xanax back in college what it felt like to take it. He explained how it felt, but also stressed that you feel no pain and you forget everything. His stories included waking up in a strange apartment he didn't recognize with no one home so he randomly had to walk around outside until he found a payphone. He didn't remember going there and still has no idea why he would have been there or with whom.
His second story (maybe more relevant) was him waking up with the bottom half of his bed covered in blood. He said he had to search his body to find the wound which was a very, very deep gash near his toe that basically left the toe hanging. They found a blood trail leading outside his apartment to the street at least. He has no recollection of how it happened or anything that happened that night. The last thing he remembered was having lunch the day before. My brother is 6'4 and 250 pounds so I can guarantee you no one was carrying him-he likely WALKED with that injury. None of his friends could tell him what happened either because they were all doing Xanax too.

So...knowing more about Xanax I guess it is possible if she did it she would or could walk on rough terrain and not feel the pain or stop even if her feet were bleeding or getting injured.
But, even if it is possible CR, MB, and JR at least saw her after she would have walked that alleyway. Would none of them look down and be like, Lauren, your feet!

Long post-sorry. Not sure if this is even relevant. I originally asked about the Xanax because of CR's amnesia and I am thinking if he did take Xanax it is very possible that he doesn't remember that night at all. If taking the drug made my brother forget an entire day and he doesn't have any reason to lie...

:goodpost:

This is extremely helpful and interesting to read, too. Great explanation that really cements my understanding of where their heads might have been--or not. People who dismiss CR's amnesia out of hand need to read this. Though calling it "amnesia" is too much of a euphemism and opens the door to total disbelief of him.

 

[Jupiter812]

Now that's a fresh thought

Patting myself on the back, lol.

Fresh is good! :great:

 

[GobBluth]

Your point about her feet is a good one. Remember how LE said that LS and CR "made their way" or something? I could see him trying to give her a ride on his back, perhaps stumbling, and her dropping her keys/purse. How long is the gravel alley, might I ask?

Based on a rough measurement, it's about 250 yards, maybe a little less.

My understanding based on things that I've read is that LS knew JR for about a year, but only met CR the weekend before her disappearance at the Indy 500. Does anyone have anymore info on that?

I haven't heard JR's statements as to what he was doing after the game. (Someone posted today that he was cleaning up after party.) Have any statements from him been released?

 

[cluciano63]

But her condition was indeed amiss given the witness description of her exiting the elevator and slamming into the wall. We don't even know that she truly made it to 5 North after the 2:51 video. Then there is the manager's sighting of a person who is probably her at 3:38.

I guess I was kind of being sarcastic...I mean we have one person saying that Lauren later was helping to put someone else to bed and then asking to party more and even moving onto another apartment to try to do so, supposedly, and yet she is barefoot, without any of her belongings...I find it unlikely that in the condition presumed, she would be of help to anyone or be requesting more parties, JMO. I have doubts about everything people have said about that night.

 

[AbbeyR]

I have tears in my eyes : http://newsonlaurens.blogspot.com/2011/08/two-months-and-day-later-words-for.html

Touching. As we move toward the possibility of a landfill search, the Spierers are in my thoughts more than ever.

Once again, I can't help but notice that absent from these messages "from Lauren's closest friends and family" is any message from JW.

 

[imkeylime]

Patting myself on the back, lol.

Fresh is good! :great:

Yes, fresh is very good! I don't know what to think about LS and JW ... the FB status stuff seems strange, IMO, but they're just kids, you know? Maybe she was at the point where she needed space in the relationship, which doesn't imply JW's involved other than by motivating her actions that night.

 

[bloom54]

Touching. As we move toward the possibility of a landfill search, the Spierers are in my thoughts more than ever.

Once again, I can't help but notice that absent from these messages "from Lauren's closest friends and family" is any message from JW.

JW has an attorney... and after his last little experience with the media, I would bet that he's on a pretty short leash!

 

[AbbeyR]

I was just reading about Morgan Harrington's disappearance, and came across this:

Morgan's absence from surveillance videos has created a stir among armchair sleuths. However, a source involved in the Arena's design notes that cameras were primarily trained on the inside of the venue. Cappuzzo also downplays the absence of Morgan on security cameras at various businesses, including the Suntrust Bank at the corner of Ivy and Copeley Road. Such cameras, he notes, were designed for on-premises security, not for finding a missing person, he says. And, he adds, the relatively low quality of black and white video produced by the four-year-old John Paul Jones surveillance system makes picking one person out of thousands a difficult if not impossible task.

(Link)

It made me think... Surveillance cameras have played such an interesting role in this case. From the beginning, ideas and rumors about what may or may not be captured on video have been a reference point -- A few snippets of video have been seen/confirmed, and these may have helped a little with reconstructing Lauren's route and a timeline. But, for the most part, it's the idea of what could or should be on video that has been used to 'fact check', to imagine scenarios, construct and refute alibis, point fingers at some POI and rule out others.

We do know – thanks to Btown and others – that there are cameras everywhere, but for the most part, have no idea what (if anything) was actually recorded. And really, the little we have seen (a still frame of Lauren and the white truck) is not very promising.

All this to say... Are we putting too much faith in the *possibility* of surveillance? If we took cameras totally out of the equation, would your thoughts on this case change?

 

[Azimuth]

I think most people who take Xanax for recreational reasons probably do way over what they are supposed to and combine it with alcohol. That is another thing my brother stressed-you HAVE to drink with it or the effect isn't as amazing.


I would love to hear whether MB said she had shoes or not on and, if not, what her feet looked like. I am assuming if someone had bloody shoe-less feet a sober person would notice?

Yes probably..a typical therapeutic dose of Xanax is like .25mg, maybe .5. Anything more than that is considered to be enough to make your judgement start to go

 

[Walker]

I guess I was kind of being sarcastic...I mean we have one person saying that Lauren later was helping to put someone else to bed and then asking to party more and even moving onto another apartment to try to do so, supposedly, and yet she is barefoot, without any of her belongings...I find it unlikely that in the condition presumed, she would be of help to anyone or be requesting more parties, JMO. I have doubts about everything people have said about that night.

MB was the one who put CR to bed.

And, MB claimed that she invited him to party some more. But could that have been a misunderstanding? Maybe he seemed annoyed at the situation, and she said something like "Don't you like to party [in general]?" and he heard her question as "Wouldn't you like to party [that very night]?"

 

[EOA]

I was just reading about Morgan Harrington's disappearance, and came across this:

(Link)

All this to say... Are we putting too much faith in the *possibility* of surveillance? If we took cameras totally out of the equation, would your thoughts on this case change?

I may be wrong but I think we're relying solely on camera evidence to piece together much of the timeline for LS post-12:30.

We have HT's statement that HT/LS were together until 12:30. I've not seen any statements or eyewitness accounts reported in MSM that even place her at Kilroy's -- I think we're relying on Kilroy's cameras for her entry/exit times there (I've seen rumors and internet posts about people who knew or could've identified her at Kilroy's describing her condition/her being vocal about drugs, etc so hopefully LE has some actual accounts but I don't recall those witnesses ever being named or reported in MSM)

We're relying on Smallwood cameras to visualize the trip made back there. We're also relying on Smallwood video which captured the altercation. Without those cameras, it would certainly have been far-fetched to speculate LS/CR would've left Kilroy's and made a very brief trip back to her complex but apparently saw no roommates or really anyone. We much more likely would've assumed they went straight from Kilroy's to CR's house which was described in MB's statement around 3AM. Since LS is missing and CR has no memory, the only folks who could've reported the Smallwood altercation would've been the antagonist group or bystanders (prob few to none at 2:45AM) who would certainly have had little to no incentive to bring that up and place themselves with the missing person when no one would've guessed otherwise.

Lastly we're again using cameras to corroborate MB's claim on the 3AM time, such that video places LS in the nearby alley at 2:51. We also have a similar reliance (in the negative) on cameras that fixate her disappearance at 4:30AM when depending on JR's reported statement via HT about rounding the corner at 4:15. However as has been stated multiple times, her existence can't be verified on camera after 2:51, so her disapperance could conceivably have been 60-90 minutes earlier than is commonly presumed.

I do think when myself and perhaps others visualize these cameras/videos, we maybe optimistically believe they're viewing a wide angle tracking or following of LS & group for 45-60 seconds at a time such that the viewer could detect body language, facial expression, activities, good look at clothing, etc. and with audio. In fact depending on the complexity of the video system, her appearance in one or more of these video sightings may well be 1 second or less and may show only a portion of LS or just part of her companion - key evidence could be just off-camera, shielded by another person or object, or they moved through too quickly to discern much other than LS was still alive at that point. We don't know.

Hopefully however LE truly does have more actual statements and witness accounts than have been reported in MSM, and are simply able to use the cameras to verify others' reports rather than to rely solely on video in the absence of witnesses.

 

[phantomthought]

JR is a question mark for me. I am assuming he was wasted and partying that night, but his statement seems to make himself seem pretty sober. So, is his statement/lawyer cleaning up the partying he was doing or was he in his right mind? Pretty much every statement we have portrays Lauren as more sober than we (as in most people who discuss the case) seem to think she was. Like, MB doesn't have her half unconscious and unable to walk or talk. So...I don't know where to go with that.

I would put that a little differently.Every action LS committed since leaving Kilroys (leaving her shoes and phone at the bar,stumbling out of the elevator if you believe the source,walking down an alleyway over gravel and whatever else barefoot loosing her keys along the way) suggests someone that is pretty out of it.Yet every statement we get from these three guys makes her appear more sober.To me both of these can not be true and IMO actions do not lie people do.

 

[phantomthought]

MB was the one who put CR to bed.

And, MB claimed that she invited him to party some more. But could that have been a misunderstanding? Maybe he seemed annoyed at the situation, and she said something like "Don't you like to party [in general]?" and he heard her question as "Wouldn't you like to party [that very night]?"

That is a problem in all of this.If you change one word of any of the statements made by anyone involved in this it could change the whole meaning of the conversation and we are relying on how some reporter paraphrased their comments.

 

[bloom54]

That is a problem in all of this.If you change one word of any of the statements made by anyone involved in this it could change the whole meaning of the conversation and we are relying on how some reporter paraphrased their comments.

the other problem is that a huge amount of the story of that night is HTs narrative -- and she wasn't even there.... she's just reporting what other people told her...

 

[jenniek]

theres talk on the LS:CD facebook page that someone (in the group) made a visit to the townhouse in between CR and JR and said she saw lauren leave but said she didn't go the way JR said and she went toward the alley. take this for what it's worth, the girl also said she was in bed so it doesn't really make sense, just thought i would share.

 

[cluciano63]

I would put that a little differently.Every action LS committed since leaving Kilroys (leaving her shoes and phone at the bar,stumbling out of the elevator if you believe the source,walking down an alleyway over gravel and whatever else barefoot loosing her keys along the way) suggests someone that is pretty out of it.Yet every statement we get from these three guys makes her appear more sober.To me both of these can not be true and IMO actions do not lie people do.

This is the point I tried to make a few pages back...

 

[Jupiter812]

I was just reading about Morgan Harrington's disappearance, and came across this:

(Link)

It made me think... Surveillance cameras have played such an interesting role in this case. From the beginning, ideas and rumors about what may or may not be captured on video have been a reference point -- A few snippets of video have been seen/confirmed, and these may have helped a little with reconstructing Lauren's route and a timeline. But, for the most part, it's the idea of what could or should be on video that has been used to 'fact check', to imagine scenarios, construct and refute alibis, point fingers at some POI and rule out others.

We do know – thanks to Btown and others – that there are cameras everywhere, but for the most part, have no idea what (if anything) was actually recorded. And really, the little we have seen (a still frame of Lauren and the white truck) is not very promising.

All this to say... Are we putting too much faith in the *possibility* of surveillance? If we took cameras totally out of the equation, would your thoughts on this case change?

The only part of cameras in our discussions that has made me uncomfortable is when the absence of someone in a video (especially LS or JW) is made out to be evidence. But here at WS we've also been conservative about the cameras e.g., how the ones at Salzmann's office and the ones at 10th and College arcade having limited range.

If you look at the map on page 1, there's really more area she traversed that is without cameras than with. I take a small bit of comfort in the possibility that of the 300 hours of video turned in to LE, they have at least seen something or someone to help the case along.

 

[bloom54]

I can't find the post anymore, but I don't think she said she actually SAW LS leave, but that she THINKS LS went the other way.

I have a hard time with the FB LSCS women who are "interviewing" people. They're putting themselves at risk - and really not doing anything to move the case forward. MOO

 

[LongTallTexan]

I think the concerns we all have that are mentioned above like the 'wording' of statements, lack of surveillance, and the second hand info from HT is what we all stuggle with. Very few facts. However, in the name of 'fresh ideas', (at least I don't recall it being discussed) is that the LE timeline provided on the first page of these posts that've we been mauling over since the beginning, lists the JR call and 'last saw' times of 4:15 and 4:30 respectively, just like they list the video surveillance 'proof' that she was in a certain location at a certain time. This tells me that LE, as we all know, has more info and in the case of the timeline, my opinoin would be that they have some 'other' info that corraborates the JR call and 'last saw' times or they wouldn't be listed on the 'official' timeline.

This idea/opinoin leads me away from the CR/MB/JR scenarios of an incident happening at 5 North, but more likely something happened on the way home, either in the gravel lot the others (i.e. ZO, AA, AB) or even she finally met up with a jealous/mad JW.

Just thinking out loud......