IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #27

[Jupiter812]

Some thoughts:
1. In this scenario it must have happened quickly. An OD usually is drawn out and messy and would leave evidence.

2. With 3 people the decision to hide her would have to be unanimous or there would have to be one dominant personality.

3. In this scenario they could have felt remorse the next day and wished that they had just called 911 but the question of determining if she was dead could now make them responsible even for an accidental death and there was no turning back. They would have to individually or collectively reaffirm their decision.

4. Much of their subsequent behavior would depend on their confidence in LS hiding place.

5. The million dollar question is what car did she leave in? And if she left in a car, is it possible she was alive when she got in and all the evidence is in that car.

Why do you say it must have had to happen quickly? It sounds as though she was already in grave condition before arriving at 5 North. And doesn't the messiness depend on whether the OD is due to stimulants or depressants? MB said CR vomited.


Anyway...#4 is so true.

 

[Darcyline]

OD times and symptoms really depend on what you have taken, how much, other issues (like a heart condition), etc. It can be long and drawn out, but what is scary is she could have technically been in the process of Oding most of the night. You can still be conscious and even speak when it is happening. You don't always vomit when it is happening either though we do not know for sure Lauren didn't vomit at some point. It is possible she had been in the process of overdosing for a few hours and lost consciousness/stopped breathing once at CR's or JR's.

 

[holly2325]

Imo spot on but I add DB (the runcible spoon tweeter) which I think they, at the time would alibi him thinking they wuld have a bigger time frame before Lauren was beng looked for.imo. he then hightailed it back to metro detroit.

Not knowing if this guy ate at the Runcible Spoon or not bothers me just about more than any other detail. It is so knowable.

What bothers me more is not knowing if the Police / PI know if this guy ate at the Runcible or if they bothered to research where that tweet came from.

If I could turn back time to June 2011 I would drive to IU Tony Gatto style and interview the staff myself. Really.

 

[Mophebius]

I'm not sure how you decided that MB was less guilty than the others? Why would he need to be threatened or coerced?


Add this to your theory:
You didn't answer the question why they wouldn't take her to an emergency room or call an ambulance. The answer could be that if they got her 'official' help that, should they medics save her, officials would ask what she'd taken and where'd she gotten it. And she'd tell them. Thus indicting them and/or their friends.

To your first question: Fair question akh, I dont believe that MB is any less guilty than JR or CR. He was just as guilty once he cosigned to their plan (just may have played a different role than the other two). However as part of my theory, I believe that it would have made more sense if one of the people from their "crew" stayed behind at the appartments. (what if somebody dropped by etc? somebody would have had to be there to help clear the coast and further solidify the alibi) From reading alot of online discussions etc. I get the sense that MB had little back-bone and was far from an alpha-male type personality. So imo he may have required some fall-in-line tactics from JR and CR, at least initially, to agree to and go along with the plan.


I dont believe they were 100% sober and clear of mind when the three of them were making this crucial decision. (whether to bite-the-bullet and take LS to a hospital and face the music or get rid of the body and dispose evidence, if any that existed)

Given their altered states of mind/intoxication level, their time crunch, the stress, panic and gravity of the overall situation they faced and ultimatly and primarily fear. I think fear was the biggest factor in their decisions. Fear can be a very powerful and motivating factor, particularly when you couple fear with the ultimate self preservation senario. Time and time again studies show that people are very highly motivated by self interest. People will do, in many cases, very bizzare or unthinkable things in the name of saving their a$$es. You couple all this with the fact that at least two of these guys may have provided drugs, alcohol or both to LS (both potentially contributing factors in LS's demise) and I think you have the right cocktail for these three to make the decisions that I believe they made. The problem these three will find in the end is that you cant save your *advertiser censored* and your face at the same time. These boys will find that out before this is all said and done.

 

[imkeylime]

OD times and symptoms really depend on what you have taken, how much, other issues (like a heart condition), etc. It can be long and drawn out, but what is scary is she could have technically been in the process of Oding most of the night. You can still be conscious and even speak when it is happening. You don't always vomit when it is happening either though we do not know for sure Lauren didn't vomit at some point. It is possible she had been in the process of overdosing for a few hours and lost consciousness/stopped breathing once at CR's or JR's.

It's been said before, but LS could have died from a long QT syndrome attack, combined with a head injury even, which the POI's misdiagnosed as an OD. The odds were sadly stacked against her: possible head injury, long QT syndrome, partying. But if that's the case, there must be some defining factor why the POIs didn't take her to emergency.

JR was supposedly her friend. Something had to trump that friendship, i.e., self-protection, a closer friendship with another POI, fear of a DD, a sexual assault, whatever. IDK ... would he choose CR or DB over LS? Would MB go along with it? Would the other POIs choose to protect him vs. spill? Something still doesn't add up for me.

But I do wonder if this is what CS was referring to when she berated someone who cared about LS for not talking.

 

[VeryVeritas]

Some thoughts:
1. In this scenario it must have happened quickly. An OD usually is drawn out and messy and would leave evidence.

2. With 3 people the decision to hide her would have to be unanimous or there would have to be one dominant personality.

3. In this scenario they could have felt remorse the next day and wished that they had just called 911 but the question of determining if she was dead could now make them responsible even for an accidental death and there was no turning back. They would have to individually or collectively reaffirm their decision.

4. Much of their subsequent behavior would depend on their confidence in LS hiding place.

5. The million dollar question is what car did she leave in? And if she left in a car, is it possible she was alive when she got in and all the evidence is in that car.

1. She could have died quickly, given the known variables which likely were responsible for her demise. Any mess could have been cleaned up. Remember CR supposedly vomited in CR/MB's place. Was there any trace of that? Could it be proven to be his vomit? My feeling has been that she very likely died shortly after 3am. For those working on vehicles, I would want to know all vehicles caught on cams from 3am to 6am at least.

2. Partially Disagree, any of the 3 could have been involved in any combination in witnessing her demise, death, and/or body disposal with or without others at any of those stages. For example: If MB knew she died, but did not witness it, nor helped with disposal the culpability is not quite the same as if he were present, and say for example helped open a tomb.

3. Agreed.

4. Agreed.

5. Unless she is still on that block, she left in a vehicle.
We need to narrow down what happened between CR/MB/JR, and in that 3am to 4:15 time frame to something more specific. Otherwise there is a wide range of possible vehicles. Yet I would be most interested in vehicles in that gravel lot or on one of the 4 streets; 11th, 10th, Morton, or College between 3am and 6am.

 

[imkeylime]

I dont believe they were 100% sober and clear of mind when the three of them were making this crucial decision. (whether to bite-the-bullet and take LS to a hospital and face the music or get rid of the body and dispose evidence, if any that existed)

You know, I do agree with this ... but I still don't get how they could make such a bad decision, under the influence of whatever, and get so lucky in terms of disposing of any evidence, especially a body.

 

[VeryVeritas]

It's been said before, but LS could have died from a long QT syndrome attack, combined with a head injury even, which the POI's misdiagnosed as an OD. The odds were sadly stacked against her: possible head injury, long QT syndrome, partying. But if that's the case, there must be some defining factor why the POIs didn't take her to emergency.

JR was supposedly her friend. Something had to trump that friendship, i.e., self-protection, a closer friendship with another POI, fear of a DD, a sexual assault, whatever. IDK ... would he choose CR or DB over LS? Would MB go along with it? Would the other POIs choose to protect him vs. spill? Something still doesn't add up for me.

But I do wonder if this is what CS was referring to when she berated someone who cared about LS for not talking.

Try to identify exactly what it is that doesn't add up for you.
My impression of JR is that he is the sort of person that after it was too late (meaning LS had passed) that there are/were motivations to cover it up.
My impression of CR and DR are very similar, people who have had a track record of breaking the rules, and so being able to keep quiet about the truth in this situation, while more tricky, is not out of character. This even more likely if they only see themselves as being indirectly involved or having rationalized away their piece of culpability. My impression of MB is that rationalization definitely carried the day. Whatever role he played, he wanted to come out smelling like roses.

Reality has shown while this group of POI's has each(mostly via their Lawyers) presented themselves as knights of the round table, it's been more like a nest of domesticated rodents huddled to keep warm next to their own feces.

 

[Jupiter812]

To your first question: Fair question akh, I dont believe that MB is any less guilty than JR or CR. He was just as guilty once he cosigned to their plan (just may have played a different role than the other two). However as part of my theory, I believe that it would have made more sense if one of the people from their "crew" stayed behind at the appartments. (what if somebody dropped by etc? somebody would have had to be there to help clear the coast and further solidify the alibi) From reading alot of online discussions etc. I get the sense that MB had little back-bone and was far from an alpha-male type personality. So imo he may have required some fall-in-line tactics from JR and CR, at least initially, to agree to and go along with the plan.


I dont believe they were 100% sober and clear of mind when the three of them were making this crucial decision. (whether to bite-the-bullet and take LS to a hospital and face the music or get rid of the body and dispose evidence, if any that existed)

Given their altered states of mind/intoxication level, their time crunch, the stress, panic and gravity of the overall situation they faced and ultimatly and primarily fear. I think fear was the biggest factor in their decisions. Fear can be a very powerful and motivating factor, particularly when you couple fear with the ultimate self preservation senario. Time and time again studies show that people are very highly motivated by self interest. People will do, in many cases, very bizzare or unthinkable things in the name of saving their a$$es. You couple all this with the fact that at least two of these guys may have provided drugs, alcohol or both to LS (both potentially contributing factors in LS's demise) and I think you have the right cocktail for these three to make the decisions that I believe they made. The problem these three will find in the end is that you cant save your *advertiser censored* and your face at the same time. These boys will find that out before this is all said and done.

Last night I found a public web board where members discussed their personal experiences of being the OD victim and of witnessing others who had ODed. Their comments corroborate what you describe. One guy said he went "ape sh$t." Later tonight I'll see if I can locate the site again. It is an interesting read.

The main comment was from a counselor of sorts who gave explicit instructions of what to do in case of an OD when you need to save your *advertiser censored*. Take the victim to a safe, easily navigable place and pin a note to victim stating what drug was taken. Then call 911 and tell them where to pick up the victim. The majority of people applauded it, due to their first-hand experience imo. Bottom line is it offers an alternative to doing nothing which results in death.

 

[jobid]

probably not related, but you never know...

Man Finds Skull in White River (Indianapolis)

http://www.theindychannel.com/news/31256936/detail.html

http://www.fox59.com/news/wxin-whit...ound-in-white-river-20120709,0,3838509.column

http://www.wishtv.com/dpp/news/local/marion_county/skull-found-in-white-river

 

[Ros]

Not knowing if this guy ate at the Runcible Spoon or not bothers me just about more than any other detail. It is so knowable.

What bothers me more is not knowing if the Police / PI know if this guy ate at the Runcible or if they bothered to research where that tweet came from.

If I could turn back time to June 2011 I would drive to IU Tony Gatto style and interview the staff myself. Really.

What bothers me is that the police and the Spierers must know about DB's tweet. I think it was sent in as a tip. The IM article alluded to him. Charlene once said that she reads "everything."

The police could have gotten credit card receipts for that day and time.

BPD has not named any of the PsOI; the names come from the media and the PIs.

So why has DB neither been cleared or implicated by the PI's or the MSM?

 

[Ros]

probably not related, but you never know...

Man Finds Skull in White River (Indianapolis)

http://www.theindychannel.com/news/31256936/detail.html

http://www.fox59.com/news/wxin-whit...ound-in-white-river-20120709,0,3838509.column

http://www.wishtv.com/dpp/news/local/marion_county/skull-found-in-white-river

Divers are searching for additional human remains in the area where the skull was found. The process of retrieval and identification could take weeks. Hoping this provides closure for the person's loved ones.

http://www.indystar.com/article/201...ek-more-remains-after-skull-found-White-River

By the way, were the remains found in Jasper County, IL ever identified as belonging to a specific person? Last I heard was that they were those of a 35-50 year old male, but no additional information.

 

[Darcyline]

I do think there has to be some factor that motivated them to disappear her rather than just drop her off in the street or call an ambulance. I think it could be a lot of things though-if they strongly felt they would be nailed for drug charges for some reason, if one or more of them had sex with her, if one of them gave her the date rape drug, etc. One or more of them may be psychos too. I mean, sure JR seems nice and "friendly" but do we really know he isn't just a sociopath good at acting?
Maybe none of the above is true or maybe some combination of the above is true. Who knows. If all of them are involved I think it may have a good chance of being solved. Surely one will crack or be stupid and say something or was stupid and kept a trophy or something.

 

[jjenny]

There have been a number of cases where people disposed of someone who overdosed. It doesn't have to be any more sinister than that, despite what this private investigator claims. Even if a lot of students down their use illegal substances, it doesn't mean they would want to get caught. I am just disappointed this investigation appears to be exactly where it had started. Police haven't said they ruled any of the POIs out (except the white truck) and we still don't know if there is any evidence on whether she left the 5 North apartments that morning.

 

[akh]

You know, I do agree with this ... but I still don't get how they could make such a bad decision, under the influence of whatever, and get so lucky in terms of disposing of any evidence, especially a body.

For a theory to answer these questions a couple of things come to mind.

First- drugs. If they provided her drugs, possibly even slipped her something, then this could lead to them fearing for their own futures (or atleast some of them because it doesn't have to be all 3 involved even though that seems to be the most likely thing with this line of thinking).

Secondly- Bruising, scrapes, redness, swelling. If she had any of this going on then they could've feared it would be misread as some type of assault rather than her hitting her head or whatever in a stupor. And maybe that is even the missing piece of the puzzle- Maybe one of them was carrying her, pulling her, etc and accidentally caused an injury that led to her demise. Would they be worried no one would believe it's an accident? Or even if they do believe people will believe it was unintentional it still makes them potentially (and almost certainly) technically negligent (which could still lead to criminal and/or civil penalties).

And 1 and 2 could also be in combination.

I still think, until I hear otherwise, the dumpster is a potential place for a body to have been disposed. Was it checked before it was emptied? I've seen no confirmation that it was and I've read unconfirmed reports it WAS dumped before it was checked.

If so, then convoluted conspiracy theories are not necessary to explain how they could've gotten rid of a body via mystery guests, drug dealers, corrupt law enforcement, etc.. Throw the body in the dumpster with the plan to play dumb, claim she was not exactly sober but OK when she left the apartments, and then imply blame for her demise on a random stranger/homeless person type scenario. ...assuming the body is found.

But....
Instead, dumpster goes unchecked. Body goes to the landfill. Landfill goes unchecked until the point the search was looking for a needle in the haystack (there have been landfill searches for bodies that come up empty when they know the body was there). With no body/evidence found at the landfill any of the 3 that were involved can now return to Bloomington knowing a body won't be found and so no worry that some trace evidence might tie them to the crime. Iow, that would explain the bravery and gamble to return to Bloomington.

I'd say the flaw in the above theory is simply the lack of any evidence of any crime. But, maybe LE wasn't looking in the proper direction until it was too late.... if even looking for such evidence at all. That would be a question we'll likely never really know an answer to unless this goes to trial at some point. We're not going to know how hard they looked for blood, vomit, or other trace evidence and exactly how wide an area or how thoroughly checked either. Not the kind of thing they will easily volunteer either way.

 

[imkeylime]

For a theory to answer these questions a couple of things come to mind.

First- drugs. If they provided her drugs, possibly even slipped her something, then this could lead to them fearing for their own futures (or atleast some of them because it doesn't have to be all 3 involved even though that seems to be the most likely thing with this line of thinking).

Secondly- Bruising, scrapes, redness, swelling. If she had any of this going on then they could've feared it would be misread as some type of assault rather than her hitting her head or whatever in a stupor. And maybe that is even the missing piece of the puzzle- Maybe one of them was carrying her, pulling her, etc and accidentally caused an injury that led to her demise. Would they be worried no one would believe it's an accident? Or even if they do believe people will believe it was unintentional it still makes them potentially (and almost certainly) technically negligent (which could still lead to criminal and/or civil penalties).

And 1 and 2 could also be in combination.

I still think, until I hear otherwise, the dumpster is a potential place for a body to have been disposed. Was it checked before it was emptied? I've seen no confirmation that it was and I've read unconfirmed reports it WAS dumped before it was checked.

If so, then convoluted conspiracy theories are not necessary to explain how they could've gotten rid of a body via mystery guests, drug dealers, corrupt law enforcement, etc.. Throw the body in the dumpster with the plan to play dumb, claim she was not exactly sober but OK when she left the apartments, and then imply blame for her demise on a random stranger/homeless person type scenario. ...assuming the body is found.

But....
Instead, dumpster goes unchecked. Body goes to the landfill. Landfill goes unchecked until the point the search was looking for a needle in the haystack (there have been landfill searches for bodies that come up empty when they know the body was there). With no body/evidence found at the landfill any of the 3 that were involved can now return to Bloomington knowing a body won't be found and so no worry that some trace evidence might tie them to the crime. Iow, that would explain the bravery and gamble to return to Bloomington.

I'd say the flaw in the above theory is simply the lack of any evidence of any crime. But, maybe LE wasn't looking in the proper direction until it was too late.... if even looking for such evidence at all. That would be a question we'll likely never really know an answer to unless this goes to trial at some point. We're not going to know how hard they looked for blood, vomit, or other trace evidence and exactly how wide an area or how thoroughly checked either. Not the kind of thing they will easily volunteer either way.

Thank you. I agree fear could have drove them ... even fear of what their parents might say/do, perhaps. I suspect there are certain parental expectations here, and they probably already weren't meeting them.

I can also buy your dumpster theory. Re: evidence: I wonder if LS ever made it back to 5 North in the first place. MB describes CR vomiting in the apartment. Maybe it wasn't just because he was drunk but because LS had died on him (sorry to be so blunt). He may have been shaken up enough to not function well, leaving MB and JR to intervene.

Although PE is tight-mouthed in this case, I choose to believe that BPD did the right things (though I agree about the dumpster/landfill search). I know they brought dogs in. The apartments should have been checked for vomit and other bodily fluids and those analyzed. If LS had died there, I feel it would have been detected. So that leaves elsewhere, like the gravel lot, where her scent was allegedly found.

If a car had been available, I'd also wonder if they attempted to get her to a hospital but she died en route, leaving them in a panic.

 

[imkeylime]

Try to identify exactly what it is that doesn't add up for you.
My impression of JR is that he is the sort of person that after it was too late (meaning LS had passed) that there are/were motivations to cover it up.
My impression of CR and DR are very similar, people who have had a track record of breaking the rules, and so being able to keep quiet about the truth in this situation, while more tricky, is not out of character. This even more likely if they only see themselves as being indirectly involved or having rationalized away their piece of culpability. My impression of MB is that rationalization definitely carried the day. Whatever role he played, he wanted to come out smelling like roses.

Reality has shown while this group of POI's has each(mostly via their Lawyers) presented themselves as knights of the round table, it's been more like a nest of domesticated rodents huddled to keep warm next to their own feces.

Good prompt! My impression is that JR speaks before thinking things out, i.e., his comment that he speaks to the Spierers "privately." That, perhaps, is what drove HT to become the spokesperson early on. He may have regretted saying he saw LS leave ... and many other things. My impression of MB is that he'd cover for CR, based on interviews. He seemed to be the most sober of the bunch and is a telecommunications/marketing major, FWIW. (Maybe not much, but I still wonder about the "Runcible Spoon" tweet.) My impression of CR? I think he's your typical bad boy/player who got in over his head. Reading my own words, MB's activity interests me the most. He seemed to get less scrutiny than the other POIs, yet he was clearly integral to the story, whatever the story may be.

 

[holly2325]

For a theory to answer these questions a couple of things come to mind.

First- drugs. If they provided her drugs, possibly even slipped her something, then this could lead to them fearing for their own futures (or atleast some of them because it doesn't have to be all 3 involved even though that seems to be the most likely thing with this line of thinking).

Secondly- Bruising, scrapes, redness, swelling. If she had any of this going on then they could've feared it would be misread as some type of assault rather than her hitting her head or whatever in a stupor. And maybe that is even the missing piece of the puzzle- Maybe one of them was carrying her, pulling her, etc and accidentally caused an injury that led to her demise. Would they be worried no one would believe it's an accident? Or even if they do believe people will believe it was unintentional it still makes them potentially (and almost certainly) technically negligent (which could still lead to criminal and/or civil penalties).

And 1 and 2 could also be in combination.

I still think, until I hear otherwise, the dumpster is a potential place for a body to have been disposed. Was it checked before it was emptied? I've seen no confirmation that it was and I've read unconfirmed reports it WAS dumped before it was checked.

If so, then convoluted conspiracy theories are not necessary to explain how they could've gotten rid of a body via mystery guests, drug dealers, corrupt law enforcement, etc.. Throw the body in the dumpster with the plan to play dumb, claim she was not exactly sober but OK when she left the apartments, and then imply blame for her demise on a random stranger/homeless person type scenario. ...assuming the body is found.

But....
Instead, dumpster goes unchecked. Body goes to the landfill. Landfill goes unchecked until the point the search was looking for a needle in the haystack (there have been landfill searches for bodies that come up empty when they know the body was there). With no body/evidence found at the landfill any of the 3 that were involved can now return to Bloomington knowing a body won't be found and so no worry that some trace evidence might tie them to the crime. Iow, that would explain the bravery and gamble to return to Bloomington.

I'd say the flaw in the above theory is simply the lack of any evidence of any crime. But, maybe LE wasn't looking in the proper direction until it was too late.... if even looking for such evidence at all. That would be a question we'll likely never really know an answer to unless this goes to trial at some point. We're not going to know how hard they looked for blood, vomit, or other trace evidence and exactly how wide an area or how thoroughly checked either. Not the kind of thing they will easily volunteer either way.

This is always in my thoughts. I have noticed in the news that police are scraping walls for a boy in NYC who has been missing for more than 40 years. I wonder if the dumpster at 5 North has been scrutinized in this way?

 

[bx2]

But....
Instead, dumpster goes unchecked. Body goes to the landfill. Landfill goes unchecked until the point the search was looking for a needle in the haystack (there have been landfill searches for bodies that come up empty when they know the body was there). With no body/evidence found at the landfill any of the 3 that were involved can now return to Bloomington knowing a body won't be found and so no worry that some trace evidence might tie them to the crime. Iow, that would explain the bravery and gamble to return to Bloomington.

A couple of points related to this part of your theory. Remember that the landfill was GPS and grid organized so that the search area was significantly cut down to an area of 70'x120'x20', still a large volume but maybe not the proverbial needle in the haystack. Also, in the progression of transport, Bloomington trash doesn't go directly to the landfill in Terre Haute, it goes through a transfer station. I can't speak to the oversight procedures that go on at such a place, but it would at least be yet another spot where nothing of suspicion would be detected at the time. Lastly, the landfill search was completed on the first day of Fall 2011 classes. The three 5N POI were already back before the results of the search had been announced.

 

[Jupiter812]

A couple of points related to this part of your theory. Remember that the landfill was GPS and grid organized so that the search area was significantly cut down to an area of 70'x120'x20', still a large volume but maybe not the proverbial needle in the haystack. Also, in the progression of transport, Bloomington trash doesn't go directly to the landfill in Terre Haute, it goes through a transfer station. I can't speak to the oversight procedures that go on at such a place, but it would at least be yet another spot where nothing of suspicion would be detected at the time. Lastly, the landfill search was completed on the first day of Fall 2011 classes. The three 5N POI were already back before the results of the search had been announced.

Given her size and the fact that she could fit into a garbage bag, duffel bag or similar innocuous container I doubt it would be detected and sorted out at the transfer station.

It is good to know the timing of the completed landfill search and their return tho.