IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #27

[sweet_blush]

It seemed from the beginning that CJ had some sort of grand conspiracy in B'town, involving BPD, ISP etc... all mapped out in her mind and when LS went missing, Chickjustin was stretching very hard to fit Lauren's disappearance into her movie.

Chick contributed some very impressive research, IMO, BUT... where she really lost my attention is when she would try to interpret her findings.

 

[ared684]

Perhaps when LS turned the corner of 11th and College, she either fell again or felt like she was too drunk to walk so she sits down on the sidewalk. Yes, this is not a smart move but in her frame of mind I don't think she was thinking about her safety. CR had to help her up in the alley, maybe she fell and just sat up next to the wall? This would give more time for an opportunity of foul play before she hit the cameras.

Or maybe after she turned the corner she decides to take the alley to the gravel lot and back to Smallwood to see if she dropped her phone/wallet on the way and something happens here? It would be consistent with the dog losing her scent.

 

[sweet_blush]

When Lauren showed up that intoxicated at 5 North, she was the proverbial lamb that is lost on the mountain, as the saying goes.

The lamb cries, and either the shepard or the wolf comes.

To me, the boys at 5 North were either one, OR the other.

Either they, JR specifically, (because we haven't heard from the mystery guest/s), were the shepard OR the wolf. I just don't believe that they halfheartedly tried to get her a safe ride home, and then just said, "okay, see ya around."

 

[sweet_blush]

We are talking about an attractive young blonde woman showing up unescorted in the middle of the night in a near passed out state at the residence of young college men who had been drinking whiskey and allegedly doing harder drugs all night.

The law of hormones says that these boys did not let Lauren walk home alone.

 

[Ros]

I feel uncomfortable whenever talking about CJ or a LE conspiracy.

I firmly believe the answers to this puzzle are to be found somewhere between 5. North and 10th and College.

I don't think there was any LE conspiracy either, but I don't think we can rule out an abduction by an unknown person after she left 5N.

 

[British]

https://twitter.com/idsnews/statuses/79307684947562496


http://www.heraldtimesonline.com/stories/2011/06/10/news.720766.sto

At 4 p.m. Friday, Salzmann said he and Rossman had just finished with another meeting with Bloomington police. “We have just left the police station and are cooperating in any way we can in giving whatever statements or tests they need from us,” Salzmann said by phone.

Other media outlets have reported that Rossman has given police a DNA sample. Salzmann did not confirm that DNA was given to police, and said that some reports out of the New York area about DNA evidence are false.

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/06...rer-missing-college-student-from-westchester/

However, according to a published report, Rossman’s lawyer, Carl Salzmann, has not confirmed whether a DNA sample was given. He would only confirm that his client is cooperating with authorities without getting into the specifics.

This "giving statements" appears to summarize the story. The way I interpret it is that his client gave written statements, but did not talk to the police. JMO. Now, if they refused to even give DNA (which I doubt it and I believe he gave), then the red flags are 100 fold more. But I dont think so. I believe he provided DNA.

 

[British]

I would like to throw out another theory. MB has now said that LS left and he went upstairs. I assume to go to bed.

What if she did go to JR's and left as he said. He watches her walk to the corner and goes back into his apt.

CR gets up and realizes LS is gone. MB has gone to his room so he would not know if CR left. So, CR goes looking for her. He sees her walking to the corner. There is an ally behind the dr's office that leads to the gravel area. He either follows her or calls out for her and she goes back to the area behind 5 North. JR has gone back in his apt so he would not see or hear CR.

Now the following:
1). CR wants her to come back; she doesn't want to; scuffle happens, she drops her key card (JR said she had it with her)
2). Could this be the place the dog lost her scent.
3). Would this be about the time the homeless man heard a scream.

Now the million dollar question. If all of this could have happened, how did he get her out of there? Wanted to hear why or why not this could or could not happen.

This could answer why some want to know how JR could cover for CR. He would not be because he didn't know that it happened.

Could also answer why CR is not talking to anyone except attorney.

I have thought of this possibility as well. However, it does not really fit. It does not sound that LS was in a position to even walk.

 

[sweet_blush]

I don't think we can rule out an abduction by an unknown person after she left 5N.

I agree. Personally, having spent so much time dissecting this situation from every angle, the concept of an LE cover-up and the random abductor theories are both possibilities.

However we have such little detail about either.

What detail we DO have, just doesn't add up anywhere, and there is definitely smoke if not fire as well.

My energy will be spent discussing CR, MB, JR, ZO, DB etc, because those other theories are just beyond my ability to help, I feel...

 

[Ros]

This "giving statements" appears to summarize the story. The way I interpret it is that his client gave written statements, but did not talk to the police. JMO. Now, if they refused to even give DNA (which I doubt it and I believe he gave), then the red flags are 100 fold more. But I dont think so. I believe he provided DNA.

Early reports say that CR did provide DNA
http://www.wishtv.com/dpp/news/loca...r-on-night-she-disappeared-submits-dna-sample
http://www.wthr.com/story/14883546/search-for-student-turning-up-few-results

 

[imkeylime]

I agree. Personally, having spent so much time dissecting this situation from every angle, the concept of an LE cover-up and the random abductor theories are both possibilities.

However we have such little detail about either.

What detail we DO have, just doesn't add up anywhere, and there is definitely smoke if not fire as well.

My energy will be spent discussing CR, MB, JR, ZO, DB etc, because those other theories are just beyond my ability to help, I feel...

I'd be the first to suspect a random abduction in most cases. I can't stand to see kids playing alone or girls walking alone—my danger radar goes sky high. And yes, it's possible that LS stumbled upon a perv or bad cop. But the POIs' collaborative story seems off, IMO. One can't remember, one tells differing versions, and one provides details that make no sense. Maybe that's due to their own conditions that night? Maybe they sent her on her way inebriated and can't own up? IDK. Something just seems very wrong.

 

[SeeingForThe1stTime]

I don't think there was any LE conspiracy either, but I don't think we can rule out an abduction by an unknown person after she left 5N.

But, can't we? I think we can, or at the very least narrow that possibility to being so miniscule that it becomes pointless to follow. The security cameras recorded the vehicles that came into the area after the time she passed into the area and does not exit. If we are to believe the statements made by LE to be factual then those vehicles have been cleared. That leads one to assume that JR, CR, and MB have been fully forthcoming and truthful which would make it virtually impossible for a vehicle to have entered into that area at precisely the moment she left JR's line of sight, grab her, throw her into the car and vanish before she crossed back in front of another camera and also not being picked up on one of them as well. I will concede that someone could have grabbed her into a residence but, that would amount to how many possibilities? And if that was the case it still pointless to go down that road because it's fully unknown, there is no starting point outside of LE searching every residence in between JR's in each direction between the cameras. The boys have established themselves as dishonest. There is a reason for their dishonesty in this very serious situation. Generally people will be more forthcoming about their indiscretions if it means getting them off the hook for a more serious crime. They would cop to most any unsavory thing that happened with LS if she actually left afterwards. In fact they would be very open about all of it as a means to prove their honesty. I can't help but think that this would have went much closer to the way Mickey Shunick's case went if LS had been abducted by a stranger. If I'm wrong about any of this then please do point out my mistakes so I can re-examine my own line of thinking.

 

[SeeingForThe1stTime]

We are talking about an attractive young blonde woman showing up unescorted in the middle of the night in a near passed out state at the residence of young college men who had been drinking whiskey and allegedly doing harder drugs all night.

The law of hormones says that these boys did not let Lauren walk home alone.

Yes, this. EXACTLY!
You just said in a tweet size post what took me half a page to try to articulate.

Once you start really thinking about who the players are in this, the focus just narrows itself.

 

[SeeingForThe1stTime]

It is impossible to know whether the scream really happened or not, and we have only CJ's word that Tallboy wore a watch. See CJ's post at Thursday, August 4, 2011: 4:03 pm at this link:

http://www.heraldtimesonline.com/stories/comments/cmt.php?cmtus=chickjustin

I don't know, other people that were out and around the area around this time have stated that they saw and heard nothing, and actually described it as an unusually quiet night. One was Kelly Wold who walked right past 5 North at 3:45 am and then later her room mate was also right in the area at 4:20 and also heard nothing. Considering the distance you would be able to hear a girl scream in the quiet of this time of night it seems at least one of these girl would have heard it while they traveled the sidewalks nearby. Also, having been a bartender in a college town I've seen girls this drunk, they are very pliable by suggestion and not likely to scream at all much less scream loudly enough to be heard blocks away. All of this makes me doubt the reliability of the scream story.

 

[SeeingForThe1stTime]

By June 10, CR's car had been searched and his phone and credit cards checked. One would think that if any evidence had been found, his status would have changed to suspect.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-06-09-missing-indiana-student_n.htm

Was her keycard to Smallwood found? What I remember was that a small purple cardcase/purse and a gold key were found before 3 a.m. so they had to have been dropped shortly after she was last seen on video. See post from mrsu at this link:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139717&page=3
As far as I know, the contents of the purse/cardcase have not been released.

I've been wondering and trying to find out about her key card also. I think it's a very important fact to know if she did or did not have her key card when JR says she left-and this may also be why LE hasn't confirmed the contents of the purse/cardholder to the public. I know JR said she had her key card when she left, but that would be impossible if the key card was in the purse found before 3 am. I don't believe, even very drunk that LS would head out to Smallwood alone at that hour, in the dark, without shoes, without a phone and without a key to enter. This, to me, makes the facts about this key card really important

 

[bx2]

But, can't we? I think we can, or at the very least narrow that possibility to being so miniscule that it becomes pointless to follow. The security cameras recorded the vehicles that came into the area after the time she passed into the area and does not exit. If we are to believe the statements made by LE to be factual then those vehicles have been cleared. That leads one to assume that JR, CR, and MB have been fully forthcoming and truthful which would make it virtually impossible for a vehicle to have entered into that area at precisely the moment she left JR's line of sight, grab her, throw her into the car and vanish before she crossed back in front of another camera and also not being picked up on one of them as well.

I think you may be overestimating the camera coverage. There was only one vehicle mentioned as being cleared that we heard about, and that truck was captured along 10th Street between College and Morton. No cameras are able to capture the College Avenue street or sidewalk where she is reported to have been walking. It still isn't the likeliest of scenarios but completely plausible.

The boys have established themselves as dishonest. There is a reason for their dishonesty in this very serious situation.

This may be a good exercise, because I'm very curious as to how any of them have established themselves as dishonest. We can speculate all we want, but seeing as how we may never know what they've told LE, it is really difficult to determine what lies may have been told.

 

[sweet_blush]

I'm very curious as to how any of them have established themselves as dishonest.

JR, particularly, has established a reputation for being dishonest amongst many of his peers.

Even people who were defending him on PT were calling him 'soulless' and a 'good liar'.

Not one person who claimed to know him on PT was willing to vouch for his character.

He gained that reputation on his own doing...

 

[VeryVeritas]

I've been wondering and trying to find out about her key card also. I think it's a very important fact to know if she did or did not have her key card when JR says she left-and this may also be why LE hasn't confirmed the contents of the purse/cardholder to the public. I know JR said she had her key card when she left, but that would be impossible if the key card was in the purse found before 3 am. I don't believe, even very drunk that LS would head out to Smallwood alone at that hour, in the dark, without shoes, without a phone and without a key to enter. This, to me, makes the facts about this key card really important

When you add up, the unlikelyhood of Lauren walking home as you have stated it, with her documented and observed condition and serious injuries, it's even more unlikely, and pretty much impossible that events unfolded as MB and JR have described. There must be a reason they have twisted the truth, withheld information, etc... At the very least, is this not obstruction of justice? While MB and JR's stories don't add up, other than being nearly impossible there hasn't been any piece of evidence as say; the keycard in her wallet to blow the lid off their lies. That might be enough to convene a grand jury, but think you would need something more concrete than that to get a conviction for anything.

Yet it is these sorts of details that have to be squeezed and analyzed to get them to talk. Even though someone would have had hours to remove a body, could have used other people's vehicles, significant time for cleanup of cars and apparently weeks of clean up time for JR's place... it doesn't mean they didn't make a mistake. There was a crime here, and there are always loose ends. It's a matter of finding them.

 

[VeryVeritas]

For some reason, I believe this is the one he has told to LE/PI's and the others are just missing information/shotty reporting. The police have phone records and i'm sure the PI's have access. If a call did not happen, the police would probably have come down much harder on MB and the reporter would probably mention it in the article.

I don't see lying about a phone call when you are well aware of how easily it could be proven.

It could very well be that this call to JR is why JR talked at all. He knew he would be on the hook.

 

[British]

When you add up, the unlikelyhood of Lauren walking home as you have stated it, with her documented and observed condition and serious injuries, it's even more unlikely, and pretty much impossible that events unfolded as MB and JR have described. There must be a reason they have twisted the truth, withheld information, etc... At the very least, is this not obstruction of justice? While MB and JR's stories don't add up, other than being nearly impossible there hasn't been any piece of evidence as say; the keycard in her wallet to blow the lid off their lies. That might be enough to convene a grand jury, but think you would need something more concrete than that to get a conviction for anything.

Yet it is these sorts of details that have to be squeezed and analyzed to get them to talk. Even though someone would have had hours to remove a body, could have used other people's vehicles, significant time for cleanup of cars and apparently weeks of clean up time for JR's place... it doesn't mean they didn't make a mistake. There was a crime here, and there are always loose ends. It's a matter of finding them.

Unless LE finds a body, it will be almost impossible to press charges against anyone. No evidence of a crime. Just a missing person. However, I am wondering if LS's family will file a civil lawsuit. In such a case, some of the PIs would be probably forced to talk during depositions.

 

[VeryVeritas]

Here is the witness quote from TG.

http://tonygatto.wordpress.com/2011...n-spierer-mystery-encounter-with-unknown-man/

The witness describes the mystery man as dark-skinned, about 5 feet, nine inches, 160 pounds, defined facial bone-structure and pointed, thin, rounded sideburns. She says he was wearing a polo-style shirt.

If the 3:30 call from MB to JR can be confirmed by LE....
Then you have the 3:38 siting in this extensive detail at 3:38 just north of 10th & North College building on North College, a difference of 8 minutes is about how long it would take someone to walk with someone slumped over them from 5N. So for example if MB called JR and said LS had vanished (as in one of the MB accounts) and explained the circumstances, JR would now have to explain why MB would call him.

At the same time, this kind of detailed description tells me that the eyewitness here should be able to make a postive ID from a photo, line up or witness stand.

It does seem also likely that if Lauren actually died or is totally passed out between 3:15 and 3:30 at CR/MB's MB panics and calls JR at 3:30, AND as was originally reported "other people were present", then this person could have been tasked with carting her off. (alive or dead, yet taking her home in that alive in that condition would be extremely negligent) She may have then died on the way back to SW, and this person did not want to be left having to explain when they had nothing to do with her demise. I could see someone saying to JR... hey... "I didn't give her anything, I'm not going down for this... I was just walking her home!" So, JR has to throw off the scent. This scenario is one that points back to the 10th and N. College building and parking garage. Personally I can remember being trusted with bringing drunk girls home alone while in College and was sober myself. Just was thinking what it would feel like if one suddenly died and yet I had nothing to do with the cause, except that perhaps I knew the people involved that may have caused it.