IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #27

[Snapfade]

The reason JR would do such a thing is deflect attention from what really happened. By MB calling him at 3:30 (assuming this is verifiable) JR could not remove himself from the situation. By her having partied at his place earlier, he could not remove himself. By him disclosing that he saw her serious injuries, he appears to have seen her after the 3:00am time period. At least once such reason for misdirection is that someone else was tasked with bringing her home, and JR is trying to protect that person. There are many other possibilities.

I believed "You Nailed It"
the phone call answers the question posed
in an earlier post , trying to figure out why JR said anything about LS potentially having a black eye.......i found it odd ,that this was the only negative comment made about Laurens well being , by 5N boys. All their other statements have Lauren being Impaired but Able (to party, to help CR, to walk home...)

 

[VeryVeritas]

You would feel horrified. And you would have dialed 911.

Right you are. Yet, I've met a lot of people that would not, that is reality.

 

[VeryVeritas]

It still does not mean the events are linked. Most mornings when I read the headlines of the local newspaper, I barely recognize my community. The drama has not only intensified, it has multiplied. I thought the IU policeman shot himself in the stadium parking lot. I don't consider that the same real estate.

I agree, there is nothing to connect the events at this time, certainly not all of them. But it does raise curiosity. Any other bodies, missing people, or strange events in the month before or after LS vanished?

 

[VeryVeritas]

I can't comment on that right now, but I wanted to add that at least two people who talked about JR on PT said something to the effect of, "there is no way JR had anything to do with this"...

And followed it up with something like, "there's no way JR could hide a body by himself"...

I have this sense that JR doesn't clean his own place.

 

[VeryVeritas]

What characteristics or behaviors make him a supposed sociopath? I don't view him as being cunning, charming, grandiose. Rather, I view him as rather awkward and insecure. Take for example the fact that his FB profile pic was not him but two tall, good-looking guys who looked mature, almost "men" instead of boys. Each had a good-looking, smiling gal on his arm. Then there is the moment he spoke from inside his vehicle to the tv reporter and in a soft-spoken voice commented to the effect that he talks to the Spierer's on a regular basis, which was so very wierd.

I'd like to add that I still believe he is capable of lying, and I believe it's possible that he may have dug himself in a hole unwittingly by saying she was there.

It's not really inconsistent with what you have described. Someone can be insecure, from a well off family and yet have these tendencies.

Not sure where you got your list, I think you mean Conning (As in Con) instead of Cunning?

This list is from DSM -IV, it's my understanding that someone only need to fit a few of these to be considered sociopathic, and certainly much of this would be contrasted against socio-economic status and things like being shy and insecure. The DSM gets revised every 10 years or so and so it's not so black and white. Yet from posts being made about JR, its starting to look like fits a few of these. Also, breaking into 10th and N. College, his police and traffic record, you have to take these things into account too. Some people think the rules don't apply to them because of their status.

Manipulative and Conning
They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.

Grandiose Sense of Self
Feels entitled to certain things as "their right."

Pathological Lying
Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.

Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.

Shallow Emotions
When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.

Incapacity for Love

Need for Stimulation
Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common.

Callousness/Lack of Empathy
Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them.

Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.

Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc.

Irresponsibility/Unreliability
Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed.

Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity
Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts.

Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle
Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively.

Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility
Changes their image as needed to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily.

 

[Ros]

I agree, there is nothing to connect the events at this time, certainly not all of them. But it does raise curiosity. Any other bodies, missing people, or strange events in the month before or after LS vanished?

Not immediately before, but Crystal Grubb was killed a few months before in September 2010. No arrests have been made. I am not sure when Joey Giza and Kate McGrayel were reported missing. I think their families initially thought they broke off contact voluntarily.
Recently the Acacia fraternity, (of which ZO allegedly joined but did not live in the house), lost its charter because of drug dealing, allegedly cocaine.

Looked up dates: Frank Joseph Giza went missing June 2, 2009. Kate McGrayel has been missing since 12 April 2010. She was from Nashville, IN but sometimes lived in Bloomington.

I also seem to recall some incidents of assault in Bloomington about the time LS disappeared.

 

[VeryVeritas]

I believed "You Nailed It"
the phone call answers the question posed
in an earlier post , trying to figure out why JR said anything about LS potentially having a black eye.......i found it odd ,that this was the only negative comment made about Laurens well being , by 5N boys. All their other statements have Lauren being Impaired but Able (to party, to help CR, to walk home...)

I agree this thing with him saying she had the start of a black eye seemed strange. First, it had been less than a half hour, and I thought it took a lot longer for black eyes to form. But it indicated that he was aware of her serious injury and you would think would ask, "who did this"? Or would have already been told that she fell? By whom?? And then regardless, knowing she was in this condition he feels like "if you can walk to the door you can leave"??? It all strikes me as inconsistent, strange, and then turns into lies.

I wonder if when JR gave this statement he had known about the videos by then. Did he say this to LE right away, or after it was well established that the last known footage was her slamming down in that lot? I'm thinking that if he said this before the video footage was revealed, that he may have been trying to create the impression(if not illusion) that someone had attacked her and then went after her after she left his place. Since it appears she would have these injuries from her falls, WE know why she would be swelling, red and maybe have gravel marks on her face. I'm not sure what this would look like if, she had died about 1 hr after the fall? Would it look more like a black eye faster than normal? I'm thinking it would. Need a Coroner or medical expert to comment. It seems to me that in a normal living person it can take several hours for the swelling to go down, the leaking blood to bruise and change color. But in someone dead, that blood would stop flowing and appear to darken rapidly. Just guessing that's how it works. So to me this is a potential clue that he saw her dead or dying person. If that is how it works, he certainly may not have been aware of any such distinction.

What doesn't make sense of course at all is that he would bring this up (regardless of whether he knew about her falls, or if he was trying to imply something else) and then say he let her leave. It does make him seem cooperative, but it's inexplicable that even if she was alive and conscious that he would just let her walk home alone. He may not have realized how absurdly inconsistent that is. That is what happens when people spin lies frequently, they can't keep track of all of the inconsistencies. We can.

 

[Ros]

I agree this thing with him saying she had the start of a black eye seemed strange. First, it had been less than a half hour, and I thought it took a lot longer for black eyes to form. But it indicated the he was aware of her serious injury and you would think would ask, "who did this"? Or would have already been told that she fell? By whom?? And then regardless, knowing she was in this condition he feels like "if you can walk to the door you can leave"??? It all strikes me as inconsistent, strange, and then turns into lies.

I wonder if when JR gave this statement he had known about the videos by then. Did he say this to LE right away, or after it was well established that the last known footage was her slamming down in that lot? I'm thinking that if he said this before the video footage was revealed, that he may have been trying to create the impression(if not illusion) that someone had attacked her and then went after her after she left his place. Since it appears she would have these injuries from her falls, WE know why she would be swelling, red and maybe have gravel marks on her face. I'm not sure what this would look like if, she had died about 1 hr after the fall? Would it look more like a black eye faster than normal? I'm thinking it would. Need a Coroner or medical expert to comment. It seems to me that in a normal living person it can take several hours for the swelling to go down, the leaking blood to bruise and change color. But in someone dead, that blood would stop flowing and appear to darken rapidly. Just guessing that's how it works. So to me this is a potential clue that he saw her dead or dying person. If that is how it works, he certainly may not have been aware of any such distinction.

What doesn't make sense of course at all is that he would bring this up (regardless of whether he knew about her falls, or if he was trying to imply something else) and then say he let her leave. It does make him seem cooperative, but it's inexplicable that even if she was alive and conscious that he would just let her walk home alone. He may not have realized how absurdly inconsistent that is. That is what happens when people spin lies frequently, they can't keep track of all of the inconsistencies. We can.

I find it inexplicable that ZO and friends let LS leave with CR and also that JR let LS leave alone.

 

[Jupiter812]

Okay, now I am truly convinced. Officer Lerg killed himself on May 28, six days before Lauren disappeared. Enough already.

Reposting to clarify what I meant by the above. I am truly convinced there is no connection.

 

[Snapfade]

I agree this thing with him saying she had the start of a black eye seemed strange. First, it had been less than a half hour, and I thought it took a lot longer for black eyes to form. But it indicated the he was aware of her serious injury and you would think would ask, "who did this"? Or would have already been told that she fell? By whom?? And then regardless, knowing she was in this condition he feels like "if you can walk to the door you can leave"??? It all strikes me as inconsistent, strange, and then turns into lies.

I wonder if when JR gave this statement he had known about the videos by then. Did he say this to LE right away, or after it was well established that the last known footage was her slamming down in that lot? I'm thinking that if he said this before the video footage was revealed, that he may have been trying to create the impression(if not illusion) that someone had attacked her and then went after her after she left his place. Since it appears she would have these injuries from her falls, WE know why she would be swelling, red and maybe have gravel marks on her face. I'm not sure what this would look like if, she had died about 1 hr after the fall? Would it look more like a black eye faster than normal? I'm thinking it would. Need a Coroner or medical expert to comment. It seems to me that in a normal living person it can take several hours for the swelling to go down, the leaking blood to bruise and change color. But in someone dead, that blood would stop flowing and appear to darken rapidly. Just guessing that's how it works. So to me this is a potential clue that he saw her dead or dying person. If that is how it works, he certainly may not have been aware of any such distinction.

What doesn't make sense of course at all is that he would bring this up (regardless of whether he knew about her falls, or if he was trying to imply something else) and then say he let he leave.
It does make

him seem cooperative, but it's inexplicable that even if she was alive and conscious that he would just let her walk home alone. He may not have realized how absurdly inconsistent that is. That is what happens when people spin lies frequently, they can't keep
track of all of the inconsistencies. We can.[/QUOTE

Dont know when found out , but it took 364 days for MM to release it in th Lohud year anniversary video. Interesting about eyes potentially darkening quicker after death...i think this would have been an area LE had opportinity to pinpoint a suspect "s".....its so inconsistant with letting her walk home by herself..... It also leads my theory away from CR carrying her to his apartment and LS being DOA . Leads me to JR and his houseguest.

I'm starting to think that LS did lay down and go to bed at JRs. JR may have provided her a sleeping bag or she goes to one of the four empty rooms. JR may or may not even know Lauren is there. But when the searching for Lauren gets more and more desperate ,
he goes checks the bedrooms and OhShit.., J.W is on his way here and she is Dead ..not only is he going to look guilty because LS is there, but he also provided drugs to her. He now comes face to face with JW and under pressre and scared , he does what he has done often, He Lies.and says shes not there ...and I can envision thats when the story
y about her walking home begins

 

[sweet_blush]

I say bring JR, MB, CR, ZO, AB, DB, and anyone else's story that is obv BS, in for questioning for the rest of their lives, until this is resolved.

Whether or not they have to fly to Bloomington.

These kids' stories need to be cracked, ASAP!!

 

[akh]

One thing that seems to be permeating this thread lately is a vibe that people KNOW who is lying because they believe the statements are inconsistent or don't match this or that report. The problem is we really don't know what statements have been made to police. We basically have hearsay. We have the internet's version of the telephone game.

You have retellings of witness accounts... witnesses who have had the benefit of hindsight to replay the night in their heads. For the witnesses that thought LS was in such danger or in a dire situation, why didn't they intervene in some way? If you want to argue that is what the Smallwood confrontation was all about (an intervention) then why did they let them just leave together?

If there were glaring inconsistencies and major holes really existing on official police reports then I cannot imagine how this case would not be handled differently at this point.

Also, we're taking 2nd and 3rd hand reports absolutely literally now. Did JR really say she had a black eye at all or did he mention puffiness, redness, etc and that then morphed into claiming she had a blackening eye?

Was she really totally incapable of walking or was she being carried because she had no shoes? Was she staggering but still able to stand or was she totally unable to move under her own power? Has time and bias caused witnesses to reinterpret what they saw that night deciding she was worse off than they initially though?

 

[akh]

I say bring JR, MB, CR, ZO, AB, DB, and anyone else's story that is obv BS, in for questioning for the rest of their lives, until this is resolved.

Whether or not they have to fly to Bloomington.

These kids' stories need to be cracked, ASAP!!

These people are innocent until proven guilty, and it's almost impossible that they could all be guilty and involved in a conspiracy.

Not sure I want to live in a country where guilt is assumed and the police allowed to question you and others until you confess or someone else confesses.

One person's questioning is another person's harassment.

 

[sweet_blush]

These people are innocent until proven guilty, and it's almost impossible that they could all be guilty and involved in a conspiracy.

Not sure I want to live in a country where guilt is assumed and the police allowed to question you and others until you confess or someone else confesses.

One person's questioning is another person's harassment.

I hear you.

One of these little <modsnip> is lying, and I for one am sick of these lies.

 

[friendsara]

Even though I don't tend to think that LS left 5N alive, if she did, I think that JR and anyone else present was probably just too out-of-it to make a coherent decision about "letting" her go. He could have been puking (or eating more candy) in the bathroom and she just left. I just don't think he could have been mentally capable of the "walk test" he said he used, and maybe he was initially lying about that because he didn't want to look like a bad person, not because he was covering up his responsibility in her death. I don't know. I keep hearing, "How could he have let her leave?" and I think he probably wasn't in any state to monitor his friends' comings and goings in the first place.

I don't say this to remove blame from JR. If she left his place that wasted, alone, how very shameful. If she didn't leave at all, well...and I tend to think she didn't leave.

 

[jjenny]

These people are innocent until proven guilty, and it's almost impossible that they could all be guilty and involved in a conspiracy.

Not sure I want to live in a country where guilt is assumed and the police allowed to question you and others until you confess or someone else confesses.

One person's questioning is another person's harassment.

ITA. But I am still amazed police haven't zeroed in on someone and haven't cleared any POIs other than white van. Surely police know more than we do.

 

[Jupiter812]

One thing that seems to be permeating this thread lately is a vibe that people KNOW who is lying because they believe the statements are inconsistent or don't match this or that report. The problem is we really don't know what statements have been made to police. We basically have hearsay. We have the internet's version of the telephone game.

You have retellings of witness accounts... witnesses who have had the benefit of hindsight to replay the night in their heads. For the witnesses that thought LS was in such danger or in a dire situation, why didn't they intervene in some way? If you want to argue that is what the Smallwood confrontation was all about (an intervention) then why did they let them just leave together?

If there were glaring inconsistencies and major holes really existing on official police reports then I cannot imagine how this case would not be handled differently at this point.

Also, we're taking 2nd and 3rd hand reports absolutely literally now. Did JR really say she had a black eye at all or did he mention puffiness, redness, etc and that then morphed into claiming she had a blackening eye?

Was she really totally incapable of walking or was she being carried because she had no shoes? Was she staggering but still able to stand or was she totally unable to move under her own power? Has time and bias caused witnesses to reinterpret what they saw that night deciding she was worse off than they initially though?

Yes, I was surprised at the reaction of the PI in the recent Lohud video when Shawn asks him about Lauren's condition and he reacts very positively saying "oh, yes, she was alive and well." He does say, "I'm not sure how well," but my point is what he communicated in his non-verbals. He stands up and sounds upbeat.

I'm paraphrasing his quotes and writing this from memory.

I do think the Lohud reports might be a wee bit bias.

 

[VeryVeritas]

These people are innocent until proven guilty, and it's almost impossible that they could all be guilty and involved in a conspiracy.

Not sure I want to live in a country where guilt is assumed and the police allowed to question you and others until you confess or someone else confesses.

One person's questioning is another person's harassment.

I do have a pet peave and it's when people start throwing around the word "Conspiracy". A conspiracy is simply when 2 more people get together to do something that is either wrong or is against the law. We all know that those are often 2 very different things. Something can be quite legal, and still very wrong. For example, much of what Nazi's did was technically legal because they pressured people to change laws to speed their rise to power and then passed laws to justify their actions. Legal is not always right or morally correct. But the law is to be reckoned with.

Everyday a great many people participate in conspiracies. Sometimes conspiracies involve masses of people and it's easier to go with the flow than buck the trend.

A group of people who share and use illegal drugs together, pass it back and forth and sell to one another are all partaking in a conspiracy. Every single one of the people's initials noted has been connected to either drug use, supply, or distribution. Are you trying to tell us that this is not a conspiracy? It most certainly is.

Now, if you are suggesting we should ignore THAT conspiracy, but you really mean conspiracy to cover up the death of LS, yes that is more serious to most of us. And that type of conspiracy all of these people are not very likely to have participated in together. However, that does not mean SOME of them could not be involved in such a conspiracy. In this case it seems just as likely if not more likely that LS's disappearance was due to at least the actions of 2 and possibly more people. So, yes a conspiracy to cover up LS death is probable.

Since there are a few theories that involve various linkages between these people those involved in a conspiracy to cover up her death, may have been involved in to degrees of knowledge or negligence; it remains that some of these people are involved in nearly every theory and others are only involved in some theories. At this point there isn't evidence to know which cannot be true, that is why they are still theories.

So yes, any of these people CAN be involved in a conspiracy to cover up LS's death and disappearance, and yes it's extremely unlikely ALL of them were involved.

On a separate note: It's also unlikely that a corrupt group(gang, organized crime or LE any of which would be technically a "conspiracy") or even a single rogue LE element is involved, but it remains possible.

Just because someone is trying to connect the dots that involves more than one person (which would make it a conspiracy) does not make their theories void. Logic, facts and evidence validate or invalidate the theories, NOT whether or not they are conspiracies.

 

[VeryVeritas]

One thing that seems to be permeating this thread lately is a vibe that people KNOW who is lying because they believe the statements are inconsistent or don't match this or that report. The problem is we really don't know what statements have been made to police. We basically have hearsay. We have the internet's version of the telephone game.

You have retellings of witness accounts... witnesses who have had the benefit of hindsight to replay the night in their heads. For the witnesses that thought LS was in such danger or in a dire situation, why didn't they intervene in some way? If you want to argue that is what the Smallwood confrontation was all about (an intervention) then why did they let them just leave together?

If there were glaring inconsistencies and major holes really existing on official police reports then I cannot imagine how this case would not be handled differently at this point.

Also, we're taking 2nd and 3rd hand reports absolutely literally now. Did JR really say she had a black eye at all or did he mention puffiness, redness, etc and that then morphed into claiming she had a blackening eye?

Was she really totally incapable of walking or was she being carried because she had no shoes? Was she staggering but still able to stand or was she totally unable to move under her own power? Has time and bias caused witnesses to reinterpret what they saw that night deciding she was worse off than they initially though?

What you are suggesting is that WS's has no business analyzing or speculating on this or any other case. Only LE should do it.

We are working with information that is known to us.
Provide better information and WS's will provide better analysis and insight.

Else you are saying "shut up". Well... I won't. But if you can provide more accurate information here on actual statements vs. heresay, it would be useful.

 

[VeryVeritas]

I agree this thing with him saying she had the start of a black eye seemed strange. First, it had been less than a half hour, and I thought it took a lot longer for black eyes to form. But it indicated the he was aware of her serious injury and you would think would ask, "who did this"? Or would have already been told that she fell? By whom?? And then regardless, knowing she was in this condition he feels like "if you can walk to the door you can leave"??? It all strikes me as inconsistent, strange, and then turns into lies.

I wonder if when JR gave this statement he had known about the videos by then. Did he say this to LE right away, or after it was well established that the last known footage was her slamming down in that lot? I'm thinking that if he said this before the video footage was revealed, that he may have been trying to create the impression(if not illusion) that someone had attacked her and then went after her after she left his place. Since it appears she would have these injuries from her falls, WE know why she would be swelling, red and maybe have gravel marks on her face. I'm not sure what this would look like if, she had died about 1 hr after the fall? Would it look more like a black eye faster than normal? I'm thinking it would. Need a Coroner or medical expert to comment. It seems to me that in a normal living person it can take several hours for the swelling to go down, the leaking blood to bruise and change color. But in someone dead, that blood would stop flowing and appear to darken rapidly. Just guessing that's how it works. So to me this is a potential clue that he saw her dead or dying person. If that is how it works, he certainly may not have been aware of any such distinction.

What doesn't make sense of course at all is that he would bring this up (regardless of whether he knew about her falls, or if he was trying to imply something else) and then say he let he leave.
It does make

him seem cooperative, but it's inexplicable that even if she was alive and conscious that he would just let her walk home alone. He may not have realized how absurdly inconsistent that is. That is what happens when people spin lies frequently, they can't keep
track of all of the inconsistencies. We can.[/QUOTE

Dont know when found out , but it took 364 days for MM to release it in th Lohud year anniversary video. Interesting about eyes potentially darkening quicker after death...i think this would have been an area LE had opportinity to pinpoint a suspect "s".....its so inconsistant with letting her walk home by herself..... It also leads my theory away from CR carrying her to his apartment and LS being DOA . Leads me to JR and his houseguest.

I'm starting to think that LS did lay down and go to bed at JRs. JR may have provided her a sleeping bag or she goes to one of the four empty rooms. JR may or may not even know Lauren is there. But when the searching for Lauren gets more and more desperate ,
he goes checks the bedrooms and OhShit.., J.W is on his way here and she is Dead ..not only is he going to look guilty because LS is there, but he also provided drugs to her. He now comes face to face with JW and under pressre and scared , he does what he has done often, He Lies.and says shes not there ...and I can envision thats when the story
y about her walking home begins

Good thinking. If she stayed there then what were the 4:15 calls about?
Do you think it was really LS making those calls?

And then regardless of time, when JR discovers that she is not alive, how does she get removed? Not sure how many hours before Mr. S and JW show up and confront JR? Were they allowed to search JR's?

What I like about this is that JR may not have had time to cultivate his story and may have come up with the watching her from the balcony thing on the fly. But then later he must stick to it or be caught changing his story.

Sure I would like to know exactly what JR said, and when it was said.
Anyone care to provide that information?

Fact is that JR admits to being the last person to see Lauren ALIVE.
A lot of the threads leading to her demise also are linked to JR.
Just because people are legally innocent until proven guilty does not mean that you wait for proof to fall from a tree.