IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #27

[midwestgirl]

I'd think one more lake needs searched. The one connected to the POI. That is Lake Clearwater at Clearwater Pointe in Indianapolis off 82nd Street. See if these guys sank Lauren Spierer there.[/QUOTE]

Do you think it was a group that hid her? Based off of previous posts you seem to indicate one person acted alone...correct me if i am wrong.

 

[Jupiter812]

Yes, that's what I assumed. And I agree with Jupiter - LE never totally dismissed the witness, only implied that there was no corroborating evidence at the particular time described. That's why it sounded like such an evasive answer.

I also agree that we just don't know what video or witnesses LE or the investigators have. I do not think that SC would make up details like Lauren sitting on the ground for about a minute, or the part where they come out of the apartment just to fill in the blanks. These accounts must come from a witness or video. JMO

As I pointed out once earlier, in LoHud's revised route, they have CR and Lauren taking Morton St., rather than the alley, from the gravel lot area. This could be from witness, or less likely video (camera we don't know about) too.

And for the record, I think LE's map showing they took the alley directly north of Smallwood for a block is wrong too.

 

[Jupiter812]

Had my phone camera with me today when I went out and I took some photos. Maybe visuals will help us make sense of some of the new details.

This is an entrance to 10 and College Apts. It faces College Ave. This outer door was unlocked when I was there. It goes into a narrow hallway with buzzers to offices/apartments and mailboxes. I don't know if the inner door was unlocked. I didn't want to be intrusive.

If CR and Lauren went in, they might be seen on camera leaving as they go down the stairs from here because this is inside the arcade. And, FWIW, I saw JW go into this door last fall.

Thi is 10th and College Village Apts. right around the corner from where her keys were found. It faces Morton. Notice the gravel lot is now another apt building under construction. Leading to the door in the shot as well as other doors like this, are a few steps, not stairs per se. From the alley where LE saw them on video (north) they would turn west onto a more open alleyway that you can barely see now b/w the new construction and this apt. bldg.

 

[Darcyline]

I am now wondering about MB's exact statement to LE. The story as I have generally understood (and perhaps others) included Lauren helping CR home, MB and Lauren helping CR into bed, and then Lauren propositioning MB before heading to JR's. Does that story seem likely if she was barely conscious and being carried by CR? Like, did she suddenly revive, perk up and CR suddenly become worse in the span of 3-5 minutes?

I wonder if MB minimized the level of her intoxication for any reason...

 

[akh]

Maybe she was staggering, woozy, etc... but CR carrying her had more to do with her not having shoes than her totally unable to walk at all. Maybe even drunken horseplay too that's just been taken out of context or embellished as people have tried to make sense of what they saw on the tape or in person? Especially in light of her disappearance and people replaying things they saw, or thought they saw, that night. Or looking at a tape and trying to draw some inferences to her disappearance later that night....

IOW, just because he was carrying her doesn't necessarily mean she couldn't walk at all. We're just assuming that is the case.

Of course this would mean some of the things we've heard from alleged witnesses might not have been as bad as they ultimately reported in hindsight. But we don't know enough not to know whether that is possible or not.

 

[Jacobite]

I just want to wish Lauren's family best wishes and hope this nightmare ends very soon.
I'm so sorry for Lauren. We will do our very best to find her and bring to justice the guys who committed this awful crime. Anyone on this board who has any details, please speak up now and help us to end the pain. Lauren will be found. A promise.

 

[Jupiter812]

One year ago tonight... lease: for Lauren and her loved ones, as well as those responsible. May everyone's nightmare end.

As Bx2 noted, tomorrow the LoHud will have an exclusive report. The piece earlier in the week was a preview.

http://www.lohud.com/article/201206...=mod|newswell|text|Frontpage|s&nclick_check=1

 

[bx2]

2 new articles from the HT:

Who's who, then and now

A Year Later with 2 videos (1 talking about the daily PO Box loop, the other showing a few of the night's settings a year later).

 

[VeryVeritas]

The calls were made from JR's phone.

Did they dust it for LS's prints?

 

[VeryVeritas]

JR is supposed to be her friend. By saying he watched her and she was fine (and I have no idea whether he actually watched her leave or not) he appears to be trying to make himself look better. Because if she actually left, he let an apparently intoxicated young woman to walk home during the night by herself, and she went missing. We have her described as falling down numerous times, and then being carried by CR on her way there. But a relatively short time later she walked home on her own?

Agreed. These new revelations confirm all of my instincts even more.

 

[VeryVeritas]

JR's story preempts questions about his responsibility in letting her leave in the terrible condition it appears she was in. I think this was the entire point of the info the POI released to the media early on.

My reading:

"I watched her walk to the corner without stumbling" = She was fine when I last saw her!
"She helped me home" = ditto

[...but just in case you find our she wasn't:]

"I was already out of alcohol" = I did not supply a minor with alcohol
"She said she wanted to party before she left" = IF she was high, she got the (/more) drugs somewhere else

[...and if you have any more questions]

"I don't remember"
"I have amnesia"
"I'm not allowed to talk about the case"
"Talk to my lawyer"

Exactly, I feel very certain that JR definitely new how messed up LS was, so just about every thing he says seems constructed to cover his A$$.

 

[VeryVeritas]

- Because JR was well aware that no cameras existed on the front of his apt. bldg? Strikes me as being a good place to rent if you're interested in setting up a party supply business.

- Based on the LoHUD.com feature, are we to believe that with LS' condition and impacts from several falls at approximately 2:30am - she was able to 'rebound' by 4:30am and make her way home? In general, wouldn't it take much longer than 2 hours for a 95-100 lb individual to metabolize various substances and walk unassisted? I recall one immature event at IU (too many gin & tonics) that took me nearly 7 hours before I could stand/walk @ 5' 7", 120-125lb!

If CR had to carry her on his back shortly after 3:00am... how is it that she is walking from CR/MB's to JR's? Even if this is what happened (MB making LS, JR's "problem") she very likely was not walking. And yes, I fully agree that if she was still slightly conscious, she was even less conscious 1 hr later. It's really hard to dial people's phone numbers (and remember them when people today are used to phones that store numbers!!) when you are unconscious. I don't believe LS was conscious at 4:15 and probably not alive.

 

[VeryVeritas]

BBM. This is the one thing I just cannot wrap my head around in this case. This girl was tiny. She had no shoes. No phone. No purse. No keys. HOW could ANYONE let her walk home by herself?! With no shoes?!!! Nobody was looking out for her that night. Nobody. Especially as a guy, wouldn't you want to protect your female friends? Unless JR was not really her friend, how could he let her go like that? He had to have been wasted/drugged out of his mind to let a friend go like that.

I know Lauren was an adult and if she wanted to leave, it was her right to do so, but she should not have been able to walk home, alone, in the middle of the night, with none of her belongings. I would have at least called her a cab and gave the driver some money to make sure my friend would get home safely. Even if she sobered up enough, she still had none of her belongings. You would think that if she was sober, she would not want to walk home barefoot in the middle of the night. It just doesn't make sense to me. And if you sobered up, wouldn't you be like, "um, where are my shoes, where is my purse, where are my keys?" I would be freaking out. It sounds like she was just like, "whatever" and attempted to walk home. Just bizarre.

You wouldn't let a friend drive home in that condition, is it any more rational to let them walk? Ok, PI's said JR admits to having had 6 shots. And that was apparently "pre-game" but then later he's at Kilroys too. 6 shots is enough to be over .10 But at 3am, was he sober? Sober enough beat CR and LS back to N. College... And Sober enough that he was observing how messed up she was. And Sober enough to look out of the balcony. But not Sober enough to say friends don't let friends walk home barefoot, without keys, when they were unconscious just a few minutes prior. So, you are right IT DOESNT ADD UP.

 

[VeryVeritas]

If the reports of Lauren stumbling, falling and hitting her head without even putting out her hands, etc. are true, I'm not sure that anything (Redbull, Coke etc.) would have made her okay to walk home alone a couple of hours later.

Also, remember early 'unofficial' reports about her condition and the drugs she (supposedly) took that night - those were about doing xanax. I think her symptoms could be consistent with those early statements about xanax and alcohol.

This is exactly it... not only could she not walk home barefoot in that state, she probably wouldn't have walked down the stairs, more likely tumbled down them.

Here is something else. The fact that she vanished and JR would have been making the calls from his phone at 4:15 means that someone was sober enough to clean up things fast. If JR had the 6 shots at 1-1:30 am, by 4:00 he would be sober enough to do that. If he exaggerated and only had 3 shots he would have been sober by 2:30-3:00.

 

[Ros]

Here's the Journal News article from Sunday
http://www.lohud.com/article/201206...ng-drug-use?odyssey=mod|defcon|text|Frontpage

What struck me is that JR said she had her Smallwood card key and her fake ID when she arrived at his place. Where and when were those things found? Or were they found? The key that AA's friend put on a railing was not a card key. There was a rumor that someone found a man's wallet containing her fake ID, but I don't think that was ever officially confirmed.

 

[VeryVeritas]

Sure, I'd be glad to and I also invite others to chime in with their thoughts.

The vomit at CR/MB's apartment could be hers. She could have been taken away (not necessarily deceased) by approximately 3:30.

She could have also been taken from JR's by approximately 3:30.

JR, in his cover story, adds an hour to the timeline for Lauren to pull herself together and leave on her own.

Included in this hour is Lauren making calls which serves to attempt to prove that she was still there upright and alive.

I agree the vomit is more likely hers. As someone pointed out earlier a side effect of head trauma / concussion is vomitting. (they were talking about CR getting punched). According to PI's she hit her head at least 2 times very hard on concrete and/or pavement. This could have done more than given her a concussion, she could have had a skull fracture and possibly a brain hemorrhage. I'm sure the PI's know this... so when they graphically explained these falls, they know she could have been in need of medical attention. She very well might have died right there, or moments later in JR's apt. The Vomiting could appear to them to have just been from drinking, so calling an ambulance isn't likely. of CR MB and JR, only CR was around when her head was slamming down. He may not even have noticed that she hit her head. (since he has amnesia for real or not, if he did notice, he's forgotten)
I recall in early conversations that it was said JR was over there at CR/MB's or some other 3rd person. If it was JR, he was likely called over (by knocking on his door) to come get LS by MB. I could see if JR thought she was just messed up he would bring her over to his place. If a few minutes later she stopped breathing, perhaps he would try CPR. Perhaps someone with medical knowledge could comment on how quickly someone could die after serious head injuries while also being intoxicated (and regardless if drugs were in her system). It seems to me it could happen, shockingly fast. So fast that CPR would obviously not be having an effect. Perhaps some hesitation, thinking of culpability for the situation and then trying CPR some more... but seeing that she had no pulse, and was not breathing. It seems a decision would be made to to either call 911 or hide the body.

Now, looking at it the other way... she's out but not dead, where would you take her at 3:30? So that you could be back in under 1 hr. AND make calls to mark the fact that you were home. This would mean JR was waiting for such an opportunity and transferred her to another location or another person. In either case, that could mean she is still alive. What would be the motive for this sort of activity?

I can see JR being the party kingpin, trying to help a friend that he helped intoxicate... but it's a bit harder to see him trading her off as a commodity.
Yet clearly there are such people.

I'm more inclined to think she died and he's covering it up. It think he helped get CR and LS messed up, wasn't aware of how serious her injuries may have been (perhaps he could see she hit her head) but either way... if she winds up dying at his place, he could easily have panicked and decided to quickly move her. I'm not so sure at this point, if he moves her himself or involves someone else to help. It's such a stretch that a guy who is supposedly involved with Drugs would know someone would could help move a body (especially if he explained it as he saw it... accidental but he could be blamed for it).

 

[VeryVeritas]

I'm not giving ZO a pass, either ... but I don't think it was wrong of him to initially confront CR. The problem is that when CR continued being a jerk, it became a macho showdown instead of about LS, as you note. Also, regardless of whether they knew where LS lived, ZO and his friends could have tried to stop LS from leaving.

OTOH, do we really know that they didn't try? IDK why she followed CR out of SW, even ... maybe ZO's group was blocking the way or something. Or maybe she was worried about CR. Under the circumstances, I imagine CR was glad to leave with the girl, even if they were just friends (which I believe they were).

I suppose it's even possible that ZO had a thing for LS. You never know ...

I've been waiting 11 months to hear what that scuffle at Smallwood was all about. It seemed to be one of the key pieces. And hearing the PI's detailed explanation it totally changed the picture quite a bit. All along even though CR was claiming amnesia, he was simultaneously making it look like he was the victim, he was really out of it and LS helped him home. When in reality, even after being clocked, LS was having trouble standing up. That is a radically different picture and one that that I suspected because of her keys and purse. There certainly are still unanswered questions about this altercation. The most important one is why they let CR leave with LS in such condition.

 

[VeryVeritas]

http://www.indianapolismonthly.com/features/Story.aspx?ID=1712477

According to this article, David Rohn took an FBI administered poly.



ETA: look, proof that one can have an attorney and still cooperate with an investigation!

Have a feeling that this is why we know one of the calls at 4:15 was to DR... because they already cleared him. We do not know who the other call was to, because that person has not been cleared.

 

[VeryVeritas]

Basically, it would prevent someone from being prosecuted, if that someone calls 911 to get help for a drunk person.

"Authors said the bill is narrowly crafted to encourage friends to call 911 if others have taken drinking to a dangerous level, RTV6's Chance Walser reported."
http://www.theindychannel.com/news/31010323/detail.html

Even if you are the one that gave them the liquor and they are a minor and they are already dead?

 

[VeryVeritas]

The condition she was described in (falling down, CR having to carry her) she could have gone with anyone "willingly" because she didn't appear to be in the control of her facilities. But since her phone was gone, and assuming she left JR, I think stranger abduction becomes much more likely than her meeting someone she knew, since that someone had no way of knowing when she was going to leave JR's.

From the graphic description of the PI's of Lauren's condition, she did not walk anywhere from JR's. I've never believed that, and these new details readily support that. I remember early on that LE said something happened after CR and LS exited the alley. But we didn't know what. But because of the purse and keys... it seemed very likely that she fell down. They said she fell face first and without putting her hands out. This means that someone witnessed this. (and Not CR, he has amnesia). And not the guy who picked up the keys, he didn't see anything. Someone else saw that.

1 hr later she would not be improved. There are now many reasons to doubt JR's story. And because of this, stranger abduction becomes much less likely.