IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #30

[akh]

I know I asked this before...but I'm not sure if I received a response. Are court hearings like this open to the public? I know some are but I don't know what differentiates between the ones that are and aren't. I'm only 15 minutes from downtown Indianapolis, so I'd definitely attend if I was allowed.

I would suspect that it will be open. I don't know why it wouldn't be.

I don't know anything about this judge. Is he a letter of the law guy or someone open to gray areas and reinterpretations?

If he's a letter of the law guy then he could very well find for the motion (assuming there's not some blockbuster evidence yet to be in the public forum). If he's a gray area and/or emotional guy then he'd probably rule against the motion.

I suspect it could fall somewhere in between where he'll allow things to continue forward as far as depositions to allow the Spierers to collect more evidence (or attempt to) but then will ask for that evidence to be presented to him for a final ruling on the motion.

 

[Ros]

I would suspect that it will be open. I don't know why it wouldn't be.

I don't know anything about this judge. Is he a letter of the law guy or someone open to gray areas and reinterpretations?

If he's a letter of the law guy then he could very well find for the motion (assuming there's not some blockbuster evidence yet to be in the public forum). If he's a gray area and/or emotional guy then he'd probably rule against the motion.

I suspect it could fall somewhere in between where he'll allow things to continue forward as far as depositions to allow the Spierers to collect more evidence (or attempt to) but then will ask for that evidence to be presented to him for a final ruling on the motion.

I don't know much about Judge Baker either, but he attended IU Bloomington and earned a bachelor's in Journalism, so at least he' be familiar with IU and Bloomington.

http://judgepedia.org/index.php/Tim_Baker

 

[Ros]

I know I asked this before...but I'm not sure if I received a response. Are court hearings like this open to the public? I know some are but I don't know what differentiates between the ones that are and aren't. I'm only 15 minutes from downtown Indianapolis, so I'd definitely attend if I was allowed.

Actually, most federal court proceedings are open to the public (see first link), but there may not be enough space in the courtroom for everyone who would like to view the court in session. Courtrooms are closed to the public when necessary to shield the identity of one or persons involved such as juveniles, rape victims, confidential informants, etc. Sometimes courtrooms are closed for security reasons, too. See second link for information about Judge Baker's courtroom policies. You could contact his deputy to be sure that you would be admitted. Hope you can get in and report back to the rest of us.

http://www.uscourts.gov/FederalCourts/UnderstandingtheFederalCourts/FederalCourtsAndThePublic.aspx

http://www.insd.uscourts.gov/judges/default.htm

 

[AbbeyR]

I don't know anything about this judge. Is he a letter of the law guy or someone open to gray areas and reinterpretations?

If he's a letter of the law guy then he could very well find for the motion (assuming there's not some blockbuster evidence yet to be in the public forum). If he's a gray area and/or emotional guy then he'd probably rule against the motion. <snipped>

I would assume that as a judge, he will make the decision based on the law, not based on emotion (no matter what kind of guy he is). I would assume this in any case...

I'm curious after reading the motion and response: What do you see as the gray area? (Or, under what argument do you think the 'letter of the law' would find for the motion)

 

[Jacobite]

I don't think they have to prove she is dead to sue for loss of love and affection. And it is clear these guys took an underage girl out drinking. No way will this case be thrown out. In fact, I think it's a slam dunk.

The judge will want to hear these boys story too. It's speak up or pay up. I think they will talk now .

 

[AbbeyR]

Well J, I hope you are right and that they do speak up. I won't be totally surprised if they don't, but I'm still holding out hope for MB, who it seems has the least to lose.

The most confusing and damning thing, in my view, is that it seems like the guys at 5 N lied from the day Lauren went missing about what happened that night, and from what we know at least, tried to conceal basic facts about who was where, when.

Looking at the changing stories, the thing that stands out to me the most is that JR obviously made a point of telling people Lauren made the phone call to DR. Later it came out that MB was there, and that JR/MB made the calls. So that tells me there was either some kind of evidence that they couldn't get out of, or MB came clean? There would be no reason to conceal that the day Lauren went missing unless a) they didn't want people to know she wasn't capable of making those calls and/or b) they already knew something happened to Lauren and she wasn't coming back.

I really hope with all of my heart that some or all of the POI will just tell the truth already and take responsibility. It's time.

 

[Jupiter812]

It's not that I trust anything the 5N guys would say, but I wonder if any part of the changing stories is due to sloppy reporting/error or incorrect secondhand information such as HT retelling her conversation with JR.

Sometimes I get the feeling that when this case is solved, we are going to be majorly surprised about what really happened. Anyone else ever get this?

 

[SeeingForThe1stTime]

Does anyone have saved pdf copies of the 5N boys responses to the lawsuit? The links a few pages back have been removed, I guess I took to long to get back to them.

Also, just a question...not a theory really I just want to see what y'all think. How likely would it be that in an effort to bring Lauren around - so no one had to walk her the extraordinary hike back to her home- that they were able to get her to do some (more?) coke? If you think it's possible that may have happened, does that make it more likely that she did walk out and encounter someone else? Or more likely that it would've been the straw that broke the camels back and she crashed right then and there?

I really wish we knew more about CR, MB & JR's movements on Friday between 6 am and when Lauren was reported missing. What do we know about what they all did that day? Anything?

One other thing, I can't remember anymore, did Lauren lose her keys in the alley on way to SW from Kilroys or was that in the alley on the way to CR's from SW after he got clocked?

 

[SeeingForThe1stTime]

It's not that I trust anything the 5N guys would say, but I wonder if any part of the changing stories is due to sloppy reporting/error or incorrect secondhand information such as HT retelling her conversation with JR.

Sometimes I get the feeling that when this case is solved, we are going to be majorly surprised about what really happened. Anyone else ever get this?

All the time!!
BUT, as I've said over and over again, even if it does turn out that Lauren did leave JR's and encountered a random, I believe that these boys are still responsible for her eventual fate, and in my mind that responsibility would only be slightly less than a random s/o that snatched her.

 

[AbbeyR]

It's not that I trust anything the 5N guys would say, but I wonder if any part of the changing stories is due to sloppy reporting/error or incorrect secondhand information such as HT retelling her conversation with JR.

Sometimes I get the feeling that when this case is solved, we are going to be majorly surprised about what really happened. Anyone else ever get this?

Yes, I'm sure you're right. I definitely don't assume that all of the accounts that were reported were 100% accurate.

At the same time, there are some 2nd hand accounts that seem pretty precise, and I would think that people would take relaying information about a missing person seriously. I mean HT's account sounds practically scripted, when you look at the POI's statements. She was recounting a conversation that took place shortly after Lauren went missing, and it included:

-"He watched her walk out the door" (we've heard that exact wording from the POI more than once)
- He had run out of alcohol before she got there (apparently a lie, but why on earth would this be part of the story unless JR told HT to say this -- it had nothing to do with searching for Lauren that first week)
- and the phone call info, which like the alcohol comment was apparently not true.

Now that we've been able to fill in some of the blanks, look at what parts of the story were told and what was omitted. -- It sounds pretty deliberate to me, designed only to deflect responsibility, not to give an actual account of where Lauren was and what happened in the hours before she disappeared.

The POI's stories also reinforced each other at the beginning, and it's worth noting that no corrections were ever offered, even when topics like the phone call came up with MB's lawyer in 2011.

 

[AbbeyR]

Also, just a question...not a theory really I just want to see what y'all think. How likely would it be that in an effort to bring Lauren around - so no one had to walk her the extraordinary hike back to her home- that they were able to get her to do some (more?) coke? If you think it's possible that may have happened, does that make it more likely that she did walk out and encounter someone else? Or more likely that it would've been the straw that broke the camels back and she crashed right then and there?

I really wish we knew more about CR, MB & JR's movements on Friday between 6 am and when Lauren was reported missing. What do we know about what they all did that day? Anything?

One other thing, I can't remember anymore, did Lauren lose her keys in the alley on way to SW from Kilroys or was that in the alley on the way to CR's from SW after he got clocked?

- Coke will wake you up if you are getting tired, and can counteract some of the effects of alcohol, when done at the same time. But it doesn't cure you from being messed up. If you are the point of passing out unconscious and not being able to walk or speak, a line of coke will not magically enable you to walk home without stumbling. I also have doubts that someone who does not even have the capacity to put their hands up to protect themselves when falling face first would have the capacity or coordination to do drugs voluntarily. JMO.

- Good question about what the POI did on Friday.

- IIRC, she dropped the keys on the way to CR's - that's the impression I got from the LoHud account.

 

[imkeylime]

- Coke will wake you up if you are getting tired, and can counteract some of the effects of alcohol, when done at the same time. But it doesn't cure you from being messed up. If you are the point of passing out unconscious and not being able to walk or speak, a line of coke will not magically enable you to walk home without stumbling. I also have doubts that someone who does not even have the capacity to put their hands up to protect themselves when falling face first would have the capacity or coordination to do drugs voluntarily. JMO.

- Good question about what the POI did on Friday.

- IIRC, she dropped the keys on the way to CR's - that's the impression I got from the LoHud account.

From what I've read about coke, I agree with you ... but we don't know if the boys knew that or how desperate they were. We also don't know ... although I think we may have heard ... if they knew about LS' long QT syndrome. If both of the above are negative, they could have killed her accidentally, thinking they were trying to help her (and protect themselves).

I also wonder if they could have confused a long QT attack with an OD. There's still no excuse for not calling 911, of course. It's tragic no matter how you look at it.

 

[SeeingForThe1stTime]

@imkeylime & AbbeyR, I agree with that, I was just wondering because while I know way more than I should about the subject, I don't know it allllll!

 

[Kadence]

All the time!!
BUT, as I've said over and over again, even if it does turn out that Lauren did leave JR's and encountered a random, I believe that these boys are still responsible for her eventual fate, and in my mind that responsibility would only be slightly less than a random s/o that snatched her.

Agree 100%! I'm hoping something breaks soon! Anyone out there getting a conscience?!

Still doin' it for Lauren on Sundays! Welcome back!

 

[Snapfade]

Just had a thought ... If MB thought someone might be breaking into apartment because of noises heard while he is at JR's, dont you find it strange that JR would not inspect the situation taking place? Or are we believe that he immediately took off his cothes and headed to bedroom and 5minutes later he has to put on sweat pants cuz LS is brought to him...... Of course , I guess its possible they were hanging out while JR wearing only underwear....

 

[Ros]

Does anyone have saved pdf copies of the 5N boys responses to the lawsuit? The links a few pages back have been removed, I guess I took to long to get back to them....

You might be able to get copies for a small fee (max $3 per document) via the Pacer site:

http://www.pacer.gov/
http://dockets.justia.com/docket/indiana/insdce/1:2013cv00991/47396/

 

[Ixchel13]

So many holes in their stories. Everyone's. First, everyone, incl. HT, ZO, the 5N POIs, AB, ZC, simply everyone except DR has left out their drug use that evening. Then, we are to gather that only Lauren had a "love" interest that evening.
MB inserts a paper that is due into the story as if it is pertinent, that somehow having a school assignment makes him an innocent bystander, and people feel sorry for him at times, almost--poor kid, busy writing an assignment and these rowdy partiers interrupted him--when in fact he was over at JRs partying most of the evening. So what, he can prove that there was actually a paper due, means zip.
Now, he went back over to his apt. when Lauren, DR and CR left JRs and
partied there for over an hour before CR and Lauren decided to go to Kilroys.
After those 3 left, MB went right back over to JRs and didn't return to his apt until after CR and Lauren got back from Kilroys. So really, MB wasn't working on his paper at all, I think he was getting very high and drunk like everyone else, yet he is one of the witnesses to Lauren's sobriety or lack of it.
I believe Lauren was inebriated, but being moreso than everyone else because of her size, not because she was doing more than her friends. I don't think anyone was sober that night, and IMO people were more than just drunk, they were very, very high and drunk.
Maybe MB did manage to get Lauren over to JRs and the OOTG was hitting on her. Lauren got pissed and demanded to go home and so they all 3 made calls. Lauren probably called JW(her cell in other words), JR called DR; so who did MB call?
Now IF Lauren managed to leave, she could have encountered any of the people called/texted, or someone could have followed her out. Maybe MB followed her. Seriously, to me, JR probably is
admitting to being the last to see her in response to the actions of his sketchy friends, and then only because might have been the one that
supplied the chaos through stuff he got from out of town.
Then, we don't hear any mention of any hookups besides Lauren and CR and we don't have any reliable proof that was going to be serious. At first,
it almost seemed that the 5N gang was gay because by the hole-ridden storyline, there's no chicks anywhere. BS, not believable, they had to be somewhere. Hiding behind doors, first at Lauren's apt. during the altercation;
then other girlfriends pretending to be asleep when she rang their doorbells at 10th and College 10 minutes later.
The story we are being told is that the guys and chicks were separated. When guys are mentioned, no girls. When girls are mentioned, no guys.
So if someone made a list of the evenings participants, and LE discovered who their hookups were, maybe the perp is one of them Because they don't mention any of their hookups, it's as if they don't exist, why is that?

 

[Ixchel13]

So many holes in their stories. Everyone's. First, everyone, incl. HT, ZO, the 5N POIs, AB, ZC, simply everyone except DR has left out their drug use that evening. Then, we are to gather that only Lauren had a "love" interest that evening.
MB inserts a paper that is due into the story as if it is pertinent, that somehow having a school assignment makes him an innocent bystander, and people feel sorry for him at times, almost--poor kid, busy writing an assignment and these rowdy partiers interrupted him--when in fact he was over at JRs partying most of the evening. So what, he can prove that there was actually a paper due, means zip.
Now, he went back over to his apt. when Lauren, DR and CR left JRs and
partied there for over an hour before CR and Lauren decided to go to Kilroys.
After those 3 left, MB went right back over to JRs and didn't return to his apt until after CR and Lauren got back from Kilroys. So really, MB wasn't working on his paper at all, I think he was getting very high and drunk like everyone else, yet he is one of the witnesses to Lauren's sobriety or lack of it.
I believe Lauren was inebriated, but being moreso than everyone else because of her size, not because she was doing more than her friends. I don't think anyone was sober that night, and IMO people were more than just drunk, they were very, very high and drunk.
Maybe MB did manage to get Lauren over to JRs and the OOTG was hitting on her. Lauren got pissed and demanded to go home and so they all 3 made calls. Lauren probably called JW(her cell in other words), JR called DR; so who did MB call?
Now IF Lauren managed to leave, she could have encountered any of the people called/texted, or someone could have followed her out. Maybe MB followed her. Seriously, to me, JR probably is
admitting to being the last to see her in response to the actions of his sketchy friends, and then only because might have been the one that
supplied the chaos through stuff he got from out of town.
Then, we don't hear any mention of any hookups besides Lauren and CR and we don't have any reliable proof that was going to be serious. At first,
it almost seemed that the 5N gang was gay because by the hole-ridden storyline, there's no chicks anywhere. BS, not believable, they had to be somewhere. Hiding behind doors, first at Lauren's apt. during the altercation;
then other girlfriends pretending to be asleep when she rang their doorbells at 10th and College 10 minutes later.
The story we are being told is that the guys and chicks were separated. When guys are mentioned, no girls. When girls are mentioned, no guys.
So if someone made a list of the evenings participants, and LE discovered who their hookups were, maybe the perp is one of them Because they don't mention any of their hookups, it's as if they don't exist, why is that?

 

[Ixchel13]

So many holes in their stories. Everyone's. First, everyone, incl. HT, ZO, the 5N POIs, AB, ZC, simply everyone except DR has left out their drug use that evening. Then, we are to gather that only Lauren had a "love" interest that evening.
MB inserts a paper that is due into the story as if it is pertinent, that somehow having a school assignment makes him an innocent bystander, and people feel sorry for him at times, almost--poor kid, busy writing an assignment and these rowdy partiers interrupted him--when in fact he was over at JRs partying most of the evening. So what, he can prove that there was actually a paper due, means zip.
Now, he went back over to his apt. when Lauren, DR and CR left JRs and
partied there for over an hour before CR and Lauren decided to go to Kilroys.
After those 3 left, MB went right back over to JRs and didn't return to his apt until after CR and Lauren got back to Kilroys. So really, MB wasn't working on his paper at all, I think he was getting very high and drunk like everyone else, yet he is one of the witnesses to Lauren's sobriety or lack of it.
I believe Lauren was inebriated, but being moreso than everyone else because of her size, not because she was doing more than her friends. I don't think anyone was sober that night, and IMO people were more than just drunk, they were very, very high and drunk.
Maybe MB did manage to get Lauren over to JRs and the OOTG was hitting on her. Lauren got pissed and demanded to go home and so they all 3 made calls. Lauren probably called JW(her cell in other words), JR called DR; so who did MB call?
Now IF Lauren managed to leave, she could have encountered any of the people called/texted, or someone could have followed her out. Maybe MB followed her. Seriously, to me, JR probably is
admitting to being the last to see her in response to the actions of his sketchy friends, and then only because might have been the one that
supplied the chaos through stuff he got from out of town.
Then, we don't hear any mention of any hookups besides Lauren and CR and we don't have any reliable proof that was going to be serious. At first,
it almost seemed that the 5N gang was gay because by the hole-ridden storyline, there's no chicks anywhere. BS, not believable, they had to be somewhere. Hiding behind doors, first at Lauren's apt. during the altercation;
then other girlfriends pretending to be asleep when she rang their doorbells at 10th and College 10 minutes later.
The story we are being told is that the guys and chicks were separated. When guys are mentioned, no girls. When girls are mentioned, no guys.
So if someone made a list of the evenings participants, and LE discovered who their hookups were, maybe the perp is one of them Because they don't mention any of their hookups, it's as if they don't exist, why is that?

 

[VeryVeritas]

Well J, I hope you are right and that they do speak up. I won't be totally surprised if they don't, but I'm still holding out hope for MB, who it seems has the least to lose.

The most confusing and damning thing, in my view, is that it seems like the guys at 5 N lied from the day Lauren went missing about what happened that night, and from what we know at least, tried to conceal basic facts about who was where, when.

Looking at the changing stories, the thing that stands out to me the most is that JR obviously made a point of telling people Lauren made the phone call to DR. Later it came out that MB was there, and that JR/MB made the calls. So that tells me there was either some kind of evidence that they couldn't get out of, or MB came clean? There would be no reason to conceal that the day Lauren went missing unless a) they didn't want people to know she wasn't capable of making those calls and/or b) they already knew something happened to Lauren and she wasn't coming back.

I really hope with all of my heart that some or all of the POI will just tell the truth already and take responsibility. It's time.

WHOA!! I had to take a break from this case and have been pleased that there have been some developments. So when did this come out that JR/MB made the 2 calls at 4:15, and who admitted it? MB remaining at JR's does take us deeper into the cover up / conspiracy. Exactly where was MB when JR was looking down the street from his micro-balcony? How did unconscious flopsy-mopsy LS get down to the exit? Did MB leave before her or after her? Arresting and questioning these 3 would surely lead to a plethora of inconsistencies in the details that would show they are covering up and hiding what really happened. I do not understand how police do not have enough evidence to bring them in for questioning. When people LIE this much there is a reason.
And now it's also known that CR carried LS all the way back to CR/MB''s apt? And it's confirmed that MB "carried" LS to JR's?
These would seem to be major developments because prior to this MB via MB's lawyer had totally portrayed LS's condition as being the total opposite of reality.

Assuming the case does not get dismissed (because it's in Federal Court), the 3 will be deposed. Not nearly as good as police questioning (which should have happened!!) but detailed statements will be made under oath
(with defense lawyers trying to block everything) Those depositions may lead somewhere.

These guys are so confident that LS's body will never be found they can arrogantly just flip up the bird. That's not what you do when you are the last person to see a "friend" alive and you know they were in very bad shape. That is what you do when you are heartless guilty *advertiser censored* so full of yourself that you almost believe your lies.