IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #32

[imkeylime]

1) this has always bothered me as well. IMO its either as simple as he likes the runcible spoon and tweets inane things, or its incredibly important. No middle ground, IMO

3) I remember hearing about the landfill search and being so conflicted. I still thought she might be alive, but on the otherhand I wanted closure for her family. I wish it hadn't taken so long for them to search it.

4) My image of what happened at the 500 is that CR and Lauren became friends, either platonic on her end or she thought she was intriguing and might have been attracted to him, IMO he wanted to hook up with her but I have no idea how she felt about him... I have a fair amount of guy friends who are good guys (which I don't necessarily believe CR is) and I don't think any of them would take a girl out to a bar/ act the way CR (says he did) did unless the girl was either a longterm good friend, or potential hook up. I would love to know more about that weekend though, it seems like the start of everything

6) totally my own bias, but when I was in college (graduated in may) most of the people I knew/knew of who supplied drugs were guys. I knew plenty of girls who dabbled in drugs, but none who sold. I also went to school in new england, so it could be totally different at a larger school in the midwest. FWIW, I think if DR had been a dealer he wouldn't have been as forthcoming with LE and the spierers have said he was. In a school as big as IU IDK how possible it is to determine who the dealer was in individual social circles. I went to a tiny school, so everyone knew who had drugs/sold. I'd imagine at IU it would be a different story, but please let me know if I'm wrong.

Re: 1): I've heard that he didn't tweet all that often, which makes it weirder if true.

Re: 3): The landfill seems like such a sad end. But it would bring closure, which is what's needed ...

Re: 4): I agree. I think good guys could make great friends, but CR doesn't seem to fit the bill, as you note. I really think he was out for himself that night.

Re: 5): I live in New England! :seeya: What I know about the topic is gossip from my kids, but based on that, I agree. What strikes me as of late is that there might be a reason why everybody is so tight-lipped. IDK what that reason is, and I'm not implying it's some huge coverup, but it does make me wonder.

 

[Ixchel13]

My nagging questions:

Why were JW and LS apart that night?
Was it normal for LS to party by herself? (without JW and/or any of her close friends)
Had JW and LS been having major issues?
Had JW ever demonstrated any sort of possessive and/or anger issues before?
How was JW acting during the basketball game? Texting, agitated, totally normal, laughing, etc.?

What was LS' relationship with HT like? How close were they? Could they depend on each other to put aside differences even if they were having issues?
Were LS and HT planning on living with each other again? If not, was it because of a falling out?
Why didn't LS or JR contact HT? Surely JR had her number programmed into his phone...
Why didn't LS contact any of her close girlfriends that night instead of the two men?
Why didn't LS contact JW? Even if JR didn't have it programmed into his phone, this is a number she was more likely to have memorized.

What was MB actually up to and how would he explain the discrepancies in the stories?
Who was at JR's? Have they all been confidently identified and interviewed?
Why has JR been more forthcoming than CR? Or perhaps better said, why has CR been so steadfast in refusing to talk to the Spierers period? If JR could do it, and he saw her after CR, CR should be able to do it more confidently, correct?
Why DID MB put CR to bed? Is this something MB normally did for CR?
Was that really CR's vomit?
Why did MB take her to JR's? Maybe JR knew her better than MB, but how would MB know that? According to the Spierers, JR wasn't even really that close to LS anyway...
Was the ID dropped on the way to 5N or did it make it to JR's?
Why is there so much focus on CR when JR was the last to see her? If 5N is responsible, why would JR intervene? Why would MB agree to cover because he seemingly has the most to lose (even the lawsuit dismissed him because he never supplied her with anything).

How hard did LS hit the ground? It sounds like she fell backward (onto the back of her head) and also fell face first at some point too.
Was LS speaking before getting to MB's and JR's? People pointedly asked about her and we've heard CR's responses. Did she respond too?
Did LS really want to leave Smallwood? Was she capable of making that decision?
Why didn't ZO continue demanding that CR take her home? Did ZO know either who LS was or that she lived at Smallwood?
Did ZO punch CR because of how LS was being treated or merely because CR was mouthing off to him?
What was the prior relationship like between ZO and CR? Do they have their own history?
Did ZO know JW? Did ZO feel close enough to JW to let him know CR was with LS and LS wasn't in great shape? If so, why wouldn't JW have been more concerned about LS BEFORE driving his roomie to class? Same for ZO's friends that were present.
Did anyone from LS' apartment/apartment floor either see or hear about the fight? Would they have realized it was LS (if only hearing about it)? If so, why didn't they try reaching out to her? Her phone was missing at that point, so would they then have tried JW?
Did LS seriously forget her phone? Why did CS make the point about LS not using her phone at all after a certain point? Even drunk, LS simply forgetting it bothers me because college girls love sending out infamous drunk texts, which may also be a reason it is so surprising to CS that LS just stopped using her phone. Did she take any pictures before she stopped using it? After she stopped texting/calling?

awesome surmisal of questions that need answers

 

[Ixchel13]

BBM. Where did you hear this? I've heard CR got punched, nothing about being kicked and it was never clear if there was a group of people and one hit CR or if there were a bunch of people and many of them hit him. IMO, if he'd been kicked or hit multiple times his lawyer would have said so. What has been stated was that he received a "blow to the head" ie got punched, and thats why he can't remember anything. It would be a stronger story to say he had been beaten by multiple people, but thats not what was said.

You've mentioned ZO making a deal with police multiple times, can you provide a link? I've read nothing about that and I'm not sure why you think he made a deal. You've said if he hadn't made a deal he would have faced assault charges, but I haven't seen anything from LE or MSM stating that. People get into fights and punches are thrown, not everyone who punches someone is charged with assault. AFAIK CR did not press charges against ZO, so a deal would not be necessary. I've seen fights broken up by Public Safety on my campus, and nobody has been charged with anything as a result. PS usually tells them to "knock it off" and then leaves once everyone has dissipated. They don't haul people to jail for a drunken fight unless someone presses charges or is seriously injured.

ZO had been busted for dealing and had other arrests and had been banned from Smallwood. LE confiscated the video of the altercation by breaking down the doors with a battering ram, it was not handed over willingly by Smallwood owners. and he was ID'd as the assailant committing battery. In this case, I'm not sure, but does LE even need someone to press charges? But instead, they seemed to believe his story about helping Lauren, even tho he didn't help Lauren! So here's a convicted criminal getting away with an assault and battery that led to the unsolved disappearance of Lauren. To me, that's a huge WTF.

 

[kpeacock]

I agree - it sounded unbelievable even before MB changed the rest of his story.

The first account that MB's lawyer gave sounded like a perfect alibi for a person with no memory. MB was a sober witness who had been studying all night, could vouch for CR and Lauren getting home and since he personally put CR to bed before seeing Lauren off, that left no doubts that something sketchy could have happened between CR and Lauren - they weren't ever alone together.

But everything in the story so far (apart from CR being 'put to bed') has been contradicted by MB's later statements (according to the accounts we have from the PI's and lawsuit docs). If he had been out drinking, wasn't even home when Lauren and Corey got there, and didn't 'watch Lauren walk out the door' but took her over to JR's - it kind of throws the whole thing in question. I'll be really interested to see if CR's memory returns.

Yes. It sounds like a story a lawyer would coach out of a client. So you "put him to bed"...

The other day I went back to the very first posts here about Lauren, just days after she disappeared. It's really interesting how much has changed in these stories since they were first released by the media. Leads me to think about how much time they had to develop their stories - two days?

Sent from my VS930 4G using Tapatalk

 

[holly18]

ZO had been busted for dealing and had other arrests and had been banned from Smallwood. LE confiscated the video of the altercation, it was not handed over willingly by Smallwood owners. and he was ID'd as the assailant committing battery. In this case, I'm not sure, but does LE even need someone to press charges? But instead, they seemed to believe his story about helping Lauren, even tho he didn't help Lauren! So here's a convicted criminal getting away with assault and battery. To me, that's a huge WTF.

Do you have a link to these convictions? The police do not typically prosecute someone for a punch without a complainant victim. I've seen nothing about ZO being potentially prosecuted, either on websleuths or MSM.

Do you have a link about CR being kicked and attacked by multiple people?

 

[akh]

ZO had been busted for dealing and had other arrests and had been banned from Smallwood. LE confiscated the video of the altercation by breaking down the doors with a battering ram, it was not handed over willingly by Smallwood owners. and he was ID'd as the assailant committing battery. In this case, I'm not sure, but does LE even need someone to press charges? But instead, they seemed to believe his story about helping Lauren, even tho he didn't help Lauren! So here's a convicted criminal getting away with an assault and battery that led to the unsolved disappearance of Lauren. To me, that's a huge WTF.

IOW... If ZO had minded his own business does any of the rest of the story happen? It is an interesting point that from the outside looking in ZO's actions have more to do with driving LS away from Smallwood than actually helping anything.

Of course I'm still doubtful we even know the full scope of the altercation and that it doesn't play a larger role in LS' disappearance besides just being an oddly coincidental happening that seems to have driven her from Smallwood (Even though it's usually portrayed as happening over seeing her get home to her apartment so had the exact opposite affect).

And it's still odd to me it rose to the level of violence, yet they just let LS leave with no further intervention. That implies to me the altercation is not exactly as it's popularly portrayed in the normally accepted narrative. IOW- There's more to the story.

No, LE doesn't need the cooperation of the battered person to make a case. But it's basically a small potatoes type case and maybe LE felt it would be more distraction than leverage if they pursued it.

 

[kpeacock]

I find it telling how much CR's story, as told by his lawyer to media on June 9, 2011, has changed - from LS helping CR home, to not only having amnesia but still not knowing who he got in a fight with, five days later. Especially since his lawyer is one of the business owners who turned security tape of his office over to LE. A lawyer who smelled money, and went ambulance chasing, perhaps... he's instrumental in filling in the narrative from the beginning. I would not be surprised if he contacted CR offering representation, and has helped spin the story from the beginning.

http://ww.heraldtimesonline.com/stories/2011/06/09/news.629101.sto

“It is my client’s understanding that he was assaulted, but he does not recall the incident,” Salzmann said. “Who confronted him, why he was confronted, once again my client doesn’t know.”

He said he and Rossman are seeking more information about the assault from police, and said Rossman was only aware it happened because he woke up with a sore jaw and bruises and after other friends shared details about what had happened."

"The local attorney said his first involvement in the case came when Bloomington police asked him to examine surveillance video from cameras at his own office at 602 N. College Ave. He said he has shared that video with police."

 

[Ixchel13]

Do you have a link to these convictions? The police do not typically prosecute someone for a punch without a complainant victim. I've seen nothing about ZO being potentially prosecuted, either on websleuths or MSM.

Do you have a link about CR being kicked and attacked by multiple people?

Holly, respectfully, ZOs criminal records have been covered grounds, and you can find them in the public records here. I agree that fights are broken up without arrests all the time. But IMO this should not have been one of them.

Whether or not it was the last determining cause of Lauren's demise, the altercation was the reason. She was home. If she had needed emergency care
after entering her apt., she could have received it and no one would have been blamed--Lauren would have arrived home in distress, either CR or her roommates, or even herself, could have called 911. But she never made it to her apartment! Or did she? Did she make it to her apartment, and CR was denied entrance? What if HT was just as messed up as Lauren? After all,
DR had klonopin with Lauren earlier, and HT was also with Lauren earlier.
I can't give any of these kids a pass, because they didn't give Lauren one.
I can see everyone's emotions and actions out of control not just Lauren.

People ask, why did CR drag Lauren out of Smallwood? If JW is involved, IMO, speculating,JMO, MOO, he gets involved here, and someone in the crowd,
and again, I'm speculating, HT or someone, tells Lauren that JW has been informed of the whole CR thing, and that's why she leaves with CR. She may have thought JW was on his way over. IMO, something made her leave when she didn't want to, I don't think she wanted to go, but I don't think CR was coercing her.

I mean it had been a wild night. She had her fun. She was home and was
being walked in by CR. Maybe they were just kissing in the hall-that makes ZO's remark in a different light, and when he made it, CR made a remark back.

Not letting CR off the hook. According to the existing story, he's a cad and
possibly a date rapist but gets off somewhat because JR is last to see her. But, MB could have gone back after taking Lauren to JR's, etc, and found that CR had gotten up and vomited on the stairs. They go back over to JRs and she is still there or just left.This is what they could have left out of the story. Better to say she left and was starting to round a corner and no one else came back over.

 

[AbbeyR]

Since people are concerned about the reliability of evidence discussed here, it seems like a good idea to differentiate totally unsubstantiated rumors from fact. There were rumors about ZO's involvement with drugs. He does not appear to have a criminal record involving drugs. You can look him up (and the others) on the My Case Indiana website - He has traffic violations and the same type of drinking charges as many of the others. http://mycase.in.gov/default.aspx

At one point I read through the entire comments sections on Gatto, etc. to look at the rumors about ZO, and I've posted about it here a few times. I believe that almost all of the posts about ZO were posted by the same person - The posts on PT, Gatto and the Dirty use identical language, and there is other reason to believe that they came from a single source. No one else has supported those claims, that I am aware of.

The only POI with drug related charges, IIRC, is Corey Rossman.

 

[sammi89]

sammi89,
Excellent questions. When you back away and open your mind you realize just how much we don't know that could change the perceptions of the case.

Thank you. I 100% agree that there is a lot of missing or questionable information that would change a lot of people's opinions, mine included. I'm not sure if this was directed at me or not, but to be clear, I don't think it is or has been close-minded of me to form certain opinions, as long as I remain receptive to alternate viewpoints and acknowledge that there's a lot of unknowns and even some of the known information is sketchy at best.

 

[kpeacock]

Since people are concerned about the reliability of evidence discussed here, it seems like a good idea to differentiate totally unsubstantiated rumors from fact. There were rumors about ZO's involvement with drugs. He does not appear to have a criminal record involving drugs. You can look him up (and the others) on the My Case Indiana website - He has traffic violations and the same type of drinking charges as many of the others. http://mycase.in.gov/default.aspx

At one point I read through the entire comments sections on Gatto, etc. to look at the rumors about ZO, and I've posted about it here a few times. I believe that almost all of the posts about ZO were posted by the same person - The posts on PT, Gatto and the Dirty use identical language, and there is other reason to believe that they came from a single source. No one else has supported those claims, that I am aware of.

The only POI with drug related charges, IIRC, is Corey Rossman.

That's an interesting observation - the possible single souce for those posts. But, could he have convictions in states other than Indiana?

 

[AbbeyR]

That's an interesting observation - the possible single souce for those posts. But, could he have convictions in states other than Indiana?

I haven't found anything on him, and it appears no one else has either. The rumor was specific to Bloomington and tied in with the ridiculous drug conspiracy theories that were posted all over the internet in 2011.

 

[kpeacock]

At one point I read through the entire comments sections on Gatto, etc. to look at the rumors about ZO, and I've posted about it here a few times. I believe that almost all of the posts about ZO were posted by the same person - The posts on PT, Gatto and the Dirty use identical language, and there is other reason to believe that they came from a single source. No one else has supported those claims, that I am aware of.

Hmmm, so who would have motive to post negative things about ZO anonymously. A POI involved in an altercation with him, perhaps? (speculation...)

 

[sammi89]

IOW... If ZO had minded his own business does any of the rest of the story happen? It is an interesting point that from the outside looking in ZO's actions have more to do with driving LS away from Smallwood than actually helping anything.

Of course I'm still doubtful we even know the full scope of the altercation and that it doesn't play a larger role in LS' disappearance besides just being an oddly coincidental happening that seems to have driven her from Smallwood (Even though it's usually portrayed as happening over seeing her get home to her apartment so had the exact opposite affect).

And it's still odd to me it rose to the level of violence, yet they just let LS leave with no further intervention. That implies to me the altercation is not exactly as it's popularly portrayed in the normally accepted narrative. IOW- There's more to the story.

No, LE doesn't need the cooperation of the battered person to make a case. But it's basically a small potatoes type case and maybe LE felt it would be more distraction than leverage if they pursued it.

I don't really know that the ZO altercation really made that much of a difference. They could have been going to her apartment for any given reason just to go right back out: looking for her phone, picking up alcohol and/or harder stuff, etc. Isn't MB's story that she wanted to continue to party? If the 5N POI stories are true, then I'm not so sure they were heading back to Smallwood for good and whether or not ZO punched CR wouldn't have made a difference, except that CR couldn't claim amnesia. On the other hand, maybe they were going to a party at Smallwood.

I agree that punching CR probably had very little to do with LS - CR had definitely been drinking and possibly doing harder stuff. I think it's very possible that ZO had been as well and overreacted to whatever CR said, especially if there is any prior bad history between the two. I don't think that necessarily means that ZO didn't say something initially out of concern for LS - other witnesses would ask if she was okay later too. Like the other witnesses, ZO probably didn't realize a physical intervention was necessary (if LS was truly in bad shape and actually needed assistance at that point).

 

[kpeacock]

I don't really know that the ZO altercation really made that much of a difference. They could have been going to her apartment for any given reason just to go right back out: looking for her phone, picking up alcohol and/or harder stuff, etc. Isn't MB's story that she wanted to continue to party?

I agree. Searching for more to drink/drugs, or a place to hang out/hook up. Maybe they showed up, realized roommates were home, maybe they ran into other people they didn't want to be around. Maybe they were trying to decide where to go/where to stay when ZO & friends showed up? It was said (not sure where first?) that CR told his friends that he wanted to sleep with LS. Perhaps she wanted his attention too, and followed wherever he lead.

(Just want to say that I sometimes feel that it seems disrespectful when I reference them doing coke and hooking up, but it seems a lot of us on this board have partied like college rock stars and understand how often this happens - um, every night in a college town, multiple times over. When you run out of liquor, you keep searching for more whatever will keep you inebriated until you pass out. Totally destructive, but that's the nature of drugs with a short half life. Quick high, but diminishing returns as drug metabolizes, so craving for more becomes mission.)

 

[Ixchel13]

That's an interesting observation - the possible single souce for those posts. But, could he have convictions in states other than Indiana?

well, if we want to believe rumors from witnesses on social media, which we are not even allowed to copy and print here because of the unreliability of the info, ZO was busted and turned informant.

ZO is not a hero in this case and was banned from Smallwood. CR is not a good guy in this case and was also banned from Smallwood. They clashed in the hallway supposedly over remarks about Lauren, but LE tells us Lauren was not involved in the dispute! IDK, are we supposed to think that only men were present during this whole evening after the party down the hall where ZC, HT and Lauren were present? So besides the fight between CR and ZO, something
catty might have been going on between the girls.

The altercation is pivotal because it places Lauren back on the streets after she was safely home, and for only that reason. I am in no way blaming anyone involved for the actual disappearance of Lauren.

 

[akh]

Thank you. I 100% agree that there is a lot of missing or questionable information that would change a lot of people's opinions, mine included. I'm not sure if this was directed at me or not, but to be clear, I don't think it is or has been close-minded of me to form certain opinions, as long as I remain receptive to alternate viewpoints and acknowledge that there's a lot of unknowns and even some of the known information is sketchy at best.

It was directed at all of us.... everyone reading. I could've used 'we' instead of
you' in the sentence and made that clearer.

 

[akh]

I don't really know that the ZO altercation really made that much of a difference. They could have been going to her apartment for any given reason just to go right back out: looking for her phone, picking up alcohol and/or harder stuff, etc. Isn't MB's story that she wanted to continue to party? If the 5N POI stories are true, then I'm not so sure they were heading back to Smallwood for good and whether or not ZO punched CR wouldn't have made a difference, except that CR couldn't claim amnesia. On the other hand, maybe they were going to a party at Smallwood.

I agree that punching CR probably had very little to do with LS - CR had definitely been drinking and possibly doing harder stuff. I think it's very possible that ZO had been as well and overreacted to whatever CR said, especially if there is any prior bad history between the two. I don't think that necessarily means that ZO didn't say something initially out of concern for LS - other witnesses would ask if she was okay later too. Like the other witnesses, ZO probably didn't realize a physical intervention was necessary (if LS was truly in bad shape and actually needed assistance at that point).

But if we follow this line of thinking then they become witnesses for the defense and mitigate the idea she was totally incoherent and in need of help. A defense attorney would make much hay with witnesses like that. That's going to be true down the line with witnesses because regardless of what they say now that their mindset was, the question they'll have to answer is "Why didn't they act in her benefit if they were so concerned?". Some very well might have an answer for that but a defense attorney would hammer hard on that point. But it doesn't seem to me like you can say you punched someone over concern for LS and then say you watched them walk away and made no effort to intervene. It makes it seem like the story either isn't being told correctly, or that there's more to the story.

We can speculate that ZO was really just pizzed at CR and didn't like his mouth, but then that's not really the story that was told. Of course now we're back to not really knowing for a fact what story is really in the investigative files versus the one that's been cobbled together for public consumption.

 

[Ixchel13]

Hmmm, so who would have motive to post negative things about ZO anonymously. A POI involved in an altercation with him, perhaps? (speculation...)

or maybe someone who knew something and wanted to be anonymous....

 

[sammi89]

But if we follow this line of thinking then they become witnesses for the defense and mitigate the idea she was totally incoherent and in need of help. A defense attorney would make much hay with witnesses like that. That's going to be true down the line with witnesses because regardless of what they say now that their mindset was, the question they'll have to answer is "Why didn't they act in her benefit if they were so concerned?". Some very well might have an answer for that but a defense attorney would hammer hard on that point. But it doesn't seem to me like you can say you punched someone over concern for LS and then say you watched them walk away and made no effort to intervene. It makes it seem like the story either isn't being told correctly, or that there's more to the story.

We can speculate that ZO was really just pizzed at CR and didn't like his mouth, but then that's not really the story that was told. Of course now we're back to not really knowing for a fact what story is really in the investigative files versus the one that's been cobbled together for public consumption.

There probably is more to this story and/or it is not being told correctly, imo, but I don't think that means that ZO had zero concern about LS.

I think his level of concern, if there was any in reality, is definitely questionable though. He might have even benefitted from LE having to break down the doors at Smallwood to get the tapes if that meant that LE didn't know about him punching CR - he may tried to justify the violence as being only concern for LS if he thought he wouldn't get charged with assault. IMO, I wouldn't be shocked if his level of concern was limited to thinking she had a few too many and needed to sleep it off. If CR was acting inappropriately like they supposedly said that may have added to it, but unless they knew LS, I'm not sure why they wouldn't think CR and LS were seeing each other. It would be nice to know if ZO and CR had history prior to this encounter because resorting to physically punching someone is pretty extreme. Then again, these guys were both probably drinking/possibly doing harder stuff, so who knows.

Regardless, the lawsuit has at least one witness stating she was relying on CR to walk entering Kilroy's. She then consumed "several" more drinks there, so the descriptions of her by ZO and his friends seems plausible. Whatever the defense might say or not say, there would still be no legal duty on their part to physically take possession of LS herself, which idk, I seriously question how many people would actually do that in their shoes anyway if they did not know LS and/or did not know what her relationship with CR was like. CR told later witnesses that he was taking care of the situation so it wouldn't be surprising if he said something similar to ZO. Again, it would be nice to know if ZO or his friends actually knew LS and, if so, whether they knew she actually lived at Smallwood. If they didn't, I'm not sure how they would know that CR was NOT taking her home like they asked.