IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 - #9

[cluciano63]

CR even taking a polygraph does not make much sense, based on his alleged memory loss; how could it be interpreted properly?

 

[Jupiter812]

Coming out from lurkdom. Been reading and keeping up, so I'm not starting from ground zero. Impressed with quality of information and level of discussion but a little disappointed to see some of this reduced of late. OTOH what got me to finally join was open invitation by a poster (one with Colts logo), so thank you.

Some thoughts and one question:

Does anyone know what type of vehicle JR drives?

If it’s true that 5 North and Smallwood authority is a frat bro, I think this is worthy of further exploration. It may be intentional that there are no security cameras at the 11 St. apts. Would be interested to know if his absence/unavailability due to vacation has been confirmed.

I think there were drugs, sex (or attempts at it), and taking advantage of LS at the least.

If a resposible party communicates her location anonymously he may be waiting until DNA evidence or toxicity expires.

I know it's totally believeable but from the get-go I've never been comfortable with the fact that her purse and keys were found in the alley. My gut says they were placed there. But to clarify: This was a small coin purse in which she kept one key to apt. Is this correct?

 

[bessie]

Relatives and friends of parties in a case are off limits unless they, too, are also named parties. Any reference to innocent third parties is discouraged. Occasionally, it's necessary to mention outsiders when discussing a topic or incident directly related to the case. In that instance, use general terms to refer to them, and do not post their names or other personally identifying data.
Examples: her cousin, his barber, a neighbor across the street.

Thanks,

Bessie

 

[ingra1327]

not MSM
The new article at tonygatto.com looks to be a summary of yesterday's discussion here on WS, including a photo showing the view from 11th in the dark.

 

[kimmypie1]

I keep going back to the phone call from JR's phone to DR's. We have speculated that she could have been calling him to let her in to Smallwood and then wondered if that was the case, why not call HT?

I am fairly certain that JR would have HT's number as they have hung out supposedly many times in the past year. These days it seems like when kids meet, the first thing they do is plug each other's numbers into their phones.

So that brings the question of why not call HT? I recall that HT had class that morning/afternoon (which is morning to college kids, lol). A lot of people I know turn their phones to silent or vibrate while sleeping. Perhaps LS knew that HT would not even be able to hear her phone, plus she was with DR earlier and probably assumed he was still partying (if they were doing so before together) so figured she could reach him.

Another thing that has been bothering me is the short amount of time they spent at Kilroy's. I assume they had all been drinking at JR's place prior to going to Kilroy's. Why would someone who is not even 21 want to go to a bar to spend money on drinks and risk her fake ID not working etc (I used to always worry about that) when she could just continue to drink at JRs. Plus it is not like her whole group was going, just two of them split off from the rest.

My belief if that they went to Kilroy's to meet up with their dealer. They got what they needed and went back to Smallwood to meet up with DR and others (as was their plan from the get go). The fight happened and they bailed to go back to CR's instead.

I realize that we don't know for sure if drugs were involved, by my personal opinion is that they were, and were the driving force behind the entire evening.

 

[elmomom]

I agree that we should take with a grain of salt the public statements of not just HT but anyone involved in the case (though I also honestly find some of the distrust of both HT and JW to be, not anti-semitic necessarily, but distrustful of someone who looks different if you don't know a lot of jews). <snip>

Frankly I found this to be offensive, but more importantly, just flat out wrong. The reasons to suspect that JW may be involved are many (please read all the threads).
The idea that this is based on distrust or an unfamiliarity of Jews is just not true. HT has made many confusing and what appears to be misleading statements in the public. The name Rosenbaum isn't exactly goyim. I'm Jewish, and I have nothing to rule out JW's involvement at this point, except the word of a lot of posters who seem to have a lot of personal knowledge, or personal investment in the case. I like this site because it is a place we can all freely express our opinions and as a team we can brainstorm. We look at all the evidence, we mull it over and we discuss. I am a little worried about how the personally involved people want to deflect the conversation away from areas that they are not comfortable with. Until this case is solved, everything remains a possibility in my eyes.

"one day I was busy trying to find the truth when the truth came knocking on my door. Go away, I said, I am busy searching for the truth. And the truth went away" (paraphrased from R Pirsig, Zen & The Art of MM)

We can all make up theories, and we can believe what we want, but the only way to solve this is to keep an open mind.
We just do not have evidence to rule out what, statistically, is a very reasonable suspect.

 

[AbbeyR]

In defense of Analytical Examiner's observation, I have gotten the same impression. Not here, but in comments under various articles and discussion of the case, I sense that stereotypes and distrust of the Jewish community of students at IU has played somewhat of a role in the way that people interpret the story, in some cases.

 

[justmethinking]

So much is being made of her lost shoes, lost phone, lost keys and wallet.

To me, that doesn't mean much other than that she was intoxicated in some way at some point during the night. As a former college party kid (20 years ago), it was not uncommon for us to kick off our shoes to dance at a bar, then get kicked out by management and end up leaving shoes behind. Once you are kicked out, they don't let you back in for your shoes, cell phone, etc. Same applies if there was a line waiting to get in. Once you are out, you're out. That could explain the shoes and phone.

Keys and wallet -- again, not uncommon to lose. Especially if they are clipped together. Stick them in your back pocket, set them down to do something, poof they are dropped or left behind. And if someone saw your stuff, they would put it on a rail or something assuming you would backtrack and come find them later that night or the next morning.

Going back to her apt complex with CR then leaving without picking up new shoes. Again, not uncommon to do goofy things that seem to make no sense to sober adults after the fact.

Even her supposedly walking away from JR alone at 4:30 am. Not uncommon. Campus feels like home to college kids. They feel safe and invincible. Even going home without keys to get in...not surprising. Not sure of her building set-up, but when I lived in a secure building, all I had to do was get in the front door. Once I was buzzed in, no worries. Had a roommate who lost her keys so often that we used to leave the apt door unlocked at night because we felt safe being in a secure bldg. Not smart but didn't think anything of it at the time.

Her night does not seem all that extreme to me, except for the awful part where she doesn't come home. I still feel like something happened between 3ish and 4:30 but the lost/dropped items may not mean anything at all except that she was partying earlier in the evening.:twocents:

 

[SeaEclipse]

Re: Polygraphs -- I don't think there is anything in the professional media (MSM or blog as opposed to comments/social network stuff) about who passed the polygraph, if MB took more than one polygraph, etc. The only thing I've seen is that the MSM reported that someone who was one of the last people to see LS took/passed a polygraph and the NYPost reported that CR took a polygraph. I, personally, would put those together to guess that CR is the one who passed the test. I don't understand why people think a polygraph of CR would be worthless: if it confirmed that he had no memories post-punch, that would be incredibly worthwhile for LE to know and would also serve as some corroboration for MB's story (especially if he also passed a poly); sure, there's some chance that CR killed/disposed of LS's body during a blackout, but that's pretty damn unlikely. That said, I'm very curious where the earlier poster got their very specific information from re: CR passing the poly and MB taking multiple polys.

Re: Parental pleas -- I agree that they are to a specific POI or POIs. My best guess is JR, not least of all because they could plead to CR, MB, HT, DR, etc in person: they're all still in Bloomington and I think there would be reports/rumors if they refused to speak to LS' parents. JW is the only other possibility here, but (in addition to all of the reasons that I said before that I don't think JW is involved), they know JW (pretty well it seems) and would likely plead their case in person/via telephone. JR is lawyered up, probably unreachable and (in my mind at least) probably the target of the pleas.

Re: Phone call -- I have a new theory. One that I have no support for, but that I actually think is the most intuitively appealing. What if JR called DR because LS was passed out in his apartment and he wanted help carrying her home? DR is a natural for him to call b/c he lives in Smallwood and would therefore have keys for access. All the reasons he might not call DR for help disposing of a body don't apply if he's actually just trying to get LS home safely at that point. Also, HT would be a less natural person to call under those circumstances for multiple reasons: she's a girl (the natural instinct of a 20-something boy isn't going to be to call a girl to help him carry a body at 4 am) and she's good friends with JW (JR is probably hoping that the story doesn't get back to JW, especially if he did take advantage of LS and especially if LS has told him about the earlier altercation). Basically, LS would call HT for keys, but JR would be likely to call DR.

Then DR doesn't pick up... and, at some point thereafter, JR realizes that LS is actually dead (perhaps her heart condition?). He panicks and disposes of the body. HT and/or DR, once LS is missing, ask questions about the call. JR thinks of the best explanation that he can. (Remember that we only know about the explanation for the call through DR's lawyer, not LE, and we have no idea what he did or didn't tell LE). He then returns home and retains expensive counsel. We've seen no indication that he is actively cooperating and no media statements from his attorney. This could be the reason. Thoughts?

 

[looksbetterinred]

So much is being made of her lost shoes, lost phone, lost keys and wallet.

To me, that doesn't mean much other than that she was intoxicated in some way at some point during the night. As a former college party kid (20 years ago), it was not uncommon for us to kick off our shoes to dance at a bar, then get kicked out by management and end up leaving shoes behind. Once you are kicked out, they don't let you back in for your shoes, cell phone, etc. Same applies if there was a line waiting to get in. Once you are out, you're out. That could explain the shoes and phone.

Keys and wallet -- again, not uncommon to lose. Especially if they are clipped together. Stick them in your back pocket, set them down to do something, poof they are dropped or left behind. And if someone saw your stuff, they would put it on a rail or something assuming you would backtrack and come find them later that night or the next morning.

Going back to her apt complex with CR then leaving without picking up new shoes. Again, not uncommon to do goofy things that seem to make no sense to sober adults after the fact.

Even her supposedly walking away from JR alone at 4:30 am. Not uncommon. Campus feels like home to college kids. They feel safe and invincible. Even going home without keys to get in...not surprising. Not sure of her building set-up, but when I lived in a secure building, all I had to do was get in the front door. Once I was buzzed in, no worries. Had a roommate who lost her keys so often that we used to leave the apt door unlocked at night because we felt safe being in a secure bldg. Not smart but didn't think anything of it at the time.

Her night does not seem all that extreme to me, except for the awful part where she doesn't come home. I still feel like something happened between 3ish and 4:30 but the lost/dropped items may not mean anything at all except that she was partying earlier in the evening.:twocents:

Well said.

 

[Barry]

Today, my thoughts keep returning to 2 things:

. The JR/JW relationship (if they are as close as what's been alluded to).
. How the keys were "found".

 

[The Smurf]

Take this for what it's worth. LE looking at a specific evidence and a specific person based on evidence that doesnt add up.

http://tonygatto.wordpress.com/

 

[elmomom]

Re: Phone call -- I have a new theory. One that I have no support for, but that I actually think is the most intuitively appealing. What if JR called DR because LS was passed out in his apartment and he wanted help carrying her home? DR is a natural for him to call b/c he lives in Smallwood and would therefore have keys for access. All the reasons he might not call DR for help disposing of a body don't apply if he's actually just trying to get LS home safely at that point. Also, HT would be a less natural person to call under those circumstances for multiple reasons: she's a girl (the natural instinct of a 20-something boy isn't going to be to call a girl to help him carry a body at 4 am) and she's good friends with JW (JR is probably hoping that the story doesn't get back to JW, especially if he did take advantage of LS and especially if LS has told him about the earlier altercation). Basically, LS would call HT for keys, but JR would be likely to call DR.

Then DR doesn't pick up... and, at some point thereafter, JR realizes that LS is actually dead (perhaps her heart condition?). He panicks and disposes of the body. HT and/or DR, once LS is missing, ask questions about the call. JR thinks of the best explanation that he can. (Remember that we only know about the explanation for the call through DR's lawyer, not LE, and we have no idea what he did or didn't tell LE). He then returns home and retains expensive counsel. We've seen no indication that he is actuvely cooperating and no media statements from his attorney. Thoughts?

It's workable for me, though why not just let her sleep it off? I was already thinking that this could have been a call for some sort of assistance. I also thought that this might be a call to see if the coast was clear back at Smallwood for LS to return (given that things were unpleasant the last time that she was there). I wish I knew who DR lived with.

I realize that JR is the natural suspect - he's the person that claimed to have seen her last. If I were one of his parents, I would bring him home and cover him with good legal representation as best I could. Unfortunate, but true. A lot of the way I view these cases has changed so much since Jon Benet Ramsey.

 

[Glaucon]

We know that two of these individuals - CR and MB - have cooperated extensively and apparently satisfactorily with police. We know that one - JR - has not. He is also the last to have seen LS. Occam's razor.

I like this line of thinking. CR and MB staying in Bloomington and "going about their business" would be pretty ballsy if they are the perps. By staying, they're making themselves more easily accessible to LE. JR going home right away and not just lawyering up (a good idea for anyone named as a POI) but lawyering up with a big-time heavyweight looks bad. This is speculation, but things are looking a certain way.

 

[AnalyticalExaminer]

I am the poster who said that CR is reported to have passed the poly and while I could have sworn that I read that from a mainstream source, I have to concede I cannot now find support for that contention. I can, however, list the following information that I believe makes clear that the person who passed is either CR or MB, and probably CR, but probably not JR, who I don't believe has taken a poly at all:

6/8 Polygraphs taken: http://www.whas11.com/news/Police-P...time-in-case-of-Lauren-Spierer-123466739.html

CR among those taking polygraph (article uses facts that seem to conflate CR and JR, who presumably has left town, but are clearly referring to CR): http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/friend_eyed_in_co_ed_vanish_7blBBnnw997WFm34fNZELO
I agree that this article especially - http://articles.nydailynews.com/201...afe-return-polygraph-tests-bloomington-police - makes it sound like the person taking the polygraph was JR, not CR, but I believe that's incorrect. First of all, it says that the person taking the polygraph was the one to whose place LS went after leaving Smallwood, i.e. CR. Second, at this time, I believe it was still widely perceived that CR, not JR, was the last to see LS, such that CR's attorney had to correct the public record in that regard later that week: http://www.indystar.com/article/201...earch-IU-student-Lauren-Spierer-yields-little. I note that i have found some strange similarities between CR/MB/JR's stories elsewhere - CR/MB told friends (? including JR?) a story that JR seems to have told HT and/or LE).

6/10: CR and MB supply DNA samples per LE request; samples also requested from JR and JW (who, again, i'm advised, is not believed in any way responsible), but no indication JR supplies one (http://www.theindychannel.com/news/28200651/detail.html); MB subsequently reinterviewed (and presumably these interviews are occurring under polygraph): http://www.lohud.com/article/201106...pearance-DNA-taken-from-Rossman-his-roommate; http://www.lohud.com/article/201106...-from-Lauren-Spierer-s-companion-his-roommate

6/15: reported that a "prime person of interest" "among the last" to see LS has passed a polygraph. Again, that probably isn't JR, who i believe left town before 6/8. "Prime" sounds like CR, not MB, who notably was reinterviewed, but both are among the primary tier of interest, not the secondary one, so it could be MB.

In general, I'm not sure I've seen anything at all indicating that JR has spoken directly to LE. I believe that everything we know of his story has come from HT, to whom he evidently spoke on 6/3, and from police who communicated with him through counsel.

 

[SeaEclipse]

It's workable for me, though why not just let her sleep it off? I was already thinking that this could have been a call for some sort of assistance. I also thought that this might be a call to see if the coast was clear back at Smallwood for LS to return (given that things were unpleasant the last time that she was there). I wish I knew who DR lived with.

I wondered that too... but I don't think it's so far fetched that he would want a drunk/high/passed out/worse girl out of his room before he faced any questions. Especially if (1) he had taken advantage of her, (2) he had provided the drugs, (3) she was vomiting or otherwise sick and he didn't want the mess and/or was afraid she might need medical attention later in the evening and/or (4) given the altercation earlier in the evening, he was afraid someone might come looking for her. Alternatively, maybe he had a gf and didn't think her seeing hime with beautiful blond girl passed out in his room was a good way for her to greet him in the morning? I'm not sure. It just seems to be that a call for assistance moving LS back to Smallwood is the most logical explanation for JR calling DR, if that's what happened.

ETA: Especially if DR has a car; that could be another reason for calling DR rather than HT.

 

[jennana]

Hi, I was also lurking and decided to actually register.

My thoughts: I'm very convinced of an OD. She has long QT syndrome and is probably on a beta blocker, and I really don't think this would be a good mix with coke and alcohol. I believe she'd be much more at risk for an OD than a person without long QT. Seems like the most reasonable explanation to me.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11441329
http://test.pathologyportal.org/site~/100th/speccardh1v.htm
(two links with some details about mixing alcohol, coke, and long QT, unrelated to LS)

 

[SeaEclipse]

I am the poster who said that CR is reported to have passed the poly and while I could have sworn that I read that from a mainstream source, I have to concede I cannot now find support for that contention. I can, however, list the following information that I believe makes clear that the person who passed is either CR or MB, and probably CR, but probably not JR, who I don't believe has taken a poly at all:

6/8 Polygraphs taken: http://www.whas11.com/news/Police-P...time-in-case-of-Lauren-Spierer-123466739.html

CR among those taking polygraph (article uses facts that seem to conflate CR and JR, who presumably has left town, but are clearly referring to CR): http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/friend_eyed_in_co_ed_vanish_7blBBnnw997WFm34fNZELO
I agree that this article especially - http://articles.nydailynews.com/201...afe-return-polygraph-tests-bloomington-police - makes it sound like the person taking the polygraph was JR, not CR, but I believe that's incorrect. First of all, it says that the person taking the polygraph was the one to whose place LS went after leaving Smallwood, i.e. CR. Second, at this time, I believe it was still widely perceived that CR, not JR, was the last to see LS, such that CR's attorney had to correct the public record in that regard later that week: http://www.indystar.com/article/201...earch-IU-student-Lauren-Spierer-yields-little. I note that i have found some strange similarities between CR/MB/JR's stories elsewhere - CR/MB told friends (? including JR?) a story that JR seems to have told HT and/or LE).

6/10: CR and MB supply DNA samples per LE request; samples also requested from JR and JW (who, again, i'm advised, is not believed in any way responsible), but no indication JR supplies one (http://www.theindychannel.com/news/28200651/detail.html); MB subsequently reinterviewed (and presumably these interviews are occurring under polygraph): http://www.lohud.com/article/201106...pearance-DNA-taken-from-Rossman-his-roommate; http://www.lohud.com/article/201106...-from-Lauren-Spierer-s-companion-his-roommate

6/15: reported that a "prime person of interest" "among the last" to see LS has passed a polygraph. Again, that probably isn't JR, who i believe left town before 6/8. "Prime" sounds like CR, not MB, who notably was reinterviewed, but both are among the primary tier of interest, not the secondary one, so it could be MB.

In general, I'm not sure I've seen anything at all indicating that JR has spoken directly to LE. I believe that everything we know of his story has come from HT, to whom he evidently spoke on 6/3, and from police who communicated with him through counsel.

Thanks for this. I think that some of the confusion of the MSM -- and possibly LE -- at the beginning is that everyone was conflating CR and JR. LS was seen all over town with CR, goes home with CR, etc, so naturally everyone thinks "LS was with CR that night." It later comes out via MB (and(?) whoever told HT) that JR actually saw her post-seeing CR and that CR then went to bed. All of the sudden the MSM realizes that the 4:15 sighting must be from someone different than CR (i.e., JR) and now some of their early articles/assumptions don't make sense. I think the whole CR/MB interlude in this story might just be an unfortunate red herring that meant LE didn't focus on JR's importance quickly enough.

 

[cluciano63]

Hi, I was also lurking and decided to actually register.

My thoughts: I'm very convinced of an OD. She has long QT syndrome and is probably on a beta blocker, and I really don't think this would be a good mix with coke and alcohol. I believe she'd be much more at risk for an OD than a person without long QT. Seems like the most reasonable explanation to me.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11441329
http://test.pathologyportal.org/site~/100th/speccardh1v.htm
(two links with some details about mixing alcohol, coke, and long QT, unrelated to LS)

If this is true, at least one and probably two, people know where her body is...and while her remains lay out in a field or woods or lake somewhere, her parents go on suffering...can't imagine how they could be so cold-hearted. So unnecessary.

 

[sv614]

I guess I missed this part of this news article. Ruining their life?


"Confronted outside their apartment Sunday, Corey Rossman and Mike Beth denied their identities to Fox59 News, then complained that media coverage of the investigation was ruining their life. Rossman complained that while his vehicle was parked in a public parking that Fox59 News was violating his privacy and Beth threatened to call Bloomington police. Rossman then drove away."

http://www.fox59.com/news/wxin-surv...spierer-last-spotted-20110612,0,7227876.story

My eyes are on JR. I do sympathize a bit for CR and MB. I understand that when there is a missing young woman, their reputations or how this is affecting them is the least of anyone's concern. But if they have been exonerated, it must be very stressful to still be under such a public microscope. Maybe they do know more than they are letting on, maybe. But maybe they were just being college kids. Either way I am sure both have a very, very guilty conscious and this must be quite difficult for them (assuming they had nothing to do with it - if they did, ruin their lives away).