IN - New Albany: Mother, two children found dead in creek

[Reader]

Funeral arrangements made for mother, children found dead in park


Read more: http://www.wlky.com/news/local-news.../19405300/-/pcub73/-/index.html#ixzz2O9alExtm

 

[Trident]

Regarding the nakedness, I remember a newspaper headline from probably twenty years ago: "A chase, a wreck, and twenty naked Pentecostals." (I think the Clutters attended a Pentecostal church in their former town.) It seems the people had received word from Above, so to speak, to leave behind all of their personal possessions, including clothing, and flee their homes (in Texas I think). Eventually there was a police pursuit and a car wreck; they were all in one Pontiac. My point here is that bizarre religious beliefs may take many forms. Not saying this was the case here. Just saying.

The difference I see, is God did not tell them to commit murder or suicide, but the shedding of clothes is a common denominator. Odd that. Even Adam and Eve were ashamed of their nakedness and hid from God.

"Rodriguez, pastor of the Templo Getsemani Assembly of God Church, told police after his arrest that God had told the family to leave Texas and, later, to leave behind their clothes. After Wednesday's hearing, he told The Vinton News he had a vision from God on Aug. 17 telling him Judgment Day was at hand and his family had to go to Florida and become evangelists."

http://thebestofblasphemy.com/TN.html

Maybe there's a lesson here for the next time someone hears from "God"?

 

[Snoopster]

The difference I see, is God did not tell them to commit murder or suicide, but the shedding of clothes is a common denominator. Odd that. Even Adam and Eve were ashamed of their nakedness and hid from God.


http://thebestofblasphemy.com/TN.html

Maybe there's a lesson here for the next time someone hears from "God"?

I'm the last person that should be considered to have a valid assessment of what Christians believe, but I have the sense that there can be more than one view on the topic of nakedness before God.

This person had a different take:

The ideal state of human life as expressed in the Bible is one of complete nakedness and openness without shame. "The man and his wife were both naked and they felt no shame" (Genesis 2:25). The first thing Adam and Eve did after their disobedience was to hide themselves from each other and from God.

http://www.intervarsity.org/slj/wi94/wi94_baring_soul_to_god.html

 

[BeginnersLuck]

The difference I see, is God did not tell them to commit murder or suicide, but the shedding of clothes is a common denominator. Odd that. Even Adam and Eve were ashamed of their nakedness and hid from God.


http://thebestofblasphemy.com/TN.html

Maybe there's a lesson here for the next time someone hears from "God"?

BBM: I would certainly hope so! There were 15 adults in this group. It appears that they all followed the leader instead of questioning the leaders mental health, even to the point of putting 5 kids in a trunk. This kind of stuff scares the carp out of me. I see nothing in the article that addresses the welfare of the children.

I would like to hear more about the strange and unexplainable things and who saw these things. Regardless of the final outcome of the investigation, I know that two children were murdered. The question I have is could it have been prevented and did the families religious beliefs play a role in not seeking help outside of the church. I'm not sure we will ever know the answer to this, if it comes down to a matter of not wanting to draw negative attention to the practices of the faith.

 

[wfgodot]

The difference I see, is God did not tell them to commit murder or suicide, but the shedding of clothes is a common denominator. Odd that. Even Adam and Eve were ashamed of their nakedness and hid from God.


http://thebestofblasphemy.com/TN.html

Maybe there's a lesson here for the next time someone hears from "God"?

Thanks for finding that link. It was late and I was lazy (and didn't imagine something from 1993 would be found online!). My local paper had the headline I quoted earlier. I remember I cut it out and stuck it on my office wall, where it remained for the next 10 years.

I'm with BeginnersLuck in wanting to hear about those unexplainable things. Rev. Nichols likes his camera time; let's hear about 'em, preacher!

 

[michmi]

I doubt any good Christian, or faithful churchgoer, would want to appear before God naked.

My opinion only

I agree - plus the spirit is what goes to God, the body is an earthly vessel. I don't believe she would want her body to be naked to be found by strangers nor would she have wanted her children to be naked.

 

[fred&edna]

(jmo) PPD causes irrational thinking and coupled with (possible) religious scrupulosity and/or religious obsessive-thinking... it could definitely be a mix for severe mental problems. Also, after some google searches, I found that nude baptism is practiced by some Christian factions (although I don't know about the Clutters' church). It's possible MC had something to do with the death of his wife and children, but currently I'm leaning towards murder/suicide.

However, even if the 10 year old went willingly into the creek... I wonder how easy it would it have been for her to drown him?

I'm mostly thinking aloud here.

 

[Reader]

While I understand the sleuthing interest in close examination of statements, I don't think that the intricacies of oral statements made to the press can tell us much. After all, how many common people are used to talking to the press - and particularly in a time of stress?

For example, in time's post above (167), I feel that saying "to cause a tragedy to happen" would be more suspicious, verb-choice-wise, than what was said: "to let a tragedy happen." It can become a subjective exercise in hearing what one wants to hear.

I did find a certain hinkiness in Clutter's “The only way I could have known for sure is if I stayed home [from work] that day.” But even that is probably due to simple differences in how we attempt to explain situations in times of great emotion.

BBM - Exactly, and this is why most of us pay careful attention to what the principals in a case are saying under stress...it's when they slip up and let something out they didn't mean to. Sometimes they even tell the truth!

I'm sorry but I disagree with the premise that we shouldn't examine their statements....I always thought that was part of what we do here at WS, and also it's very interesting to me personally and I'm interested in what sleuthers here think about what is said.

Every link I've read says LE is investigating the case as a homicide but have not ruled out murder/suicide and they have not even released a cause of death for the mother yet...AFAIC it's a case very open to analysis of anything anyone wants to discuss....IMO

Just saying....

 

[WhitneyLea]

I just wish we knew more about what Jamie and the kids did that day, other than being seen at 7-7:30 that morning. Did they stay at home all day until they went to the park? Did they go out anywhere - to any stores, to church, to visit any friends or neighbors? Did they make any purchases or phone calls? I think I heard somewhere that the son was homeschooled, so maybe they did typically stay in all day. But this obviously turned out to not be a "typical" day.

 

[wfgodot]

BBM - Exactly, and this is why most of us pay careful attention to what the principals in a case are saying under stress...it's when they slip up and let something out they didn't mean to. Sometimes they even tell the truth!

I'm sorry but I disagree with the premise that we shouldn't examine their statements....I always thought that was part of what we do here at WS, and also it's very interesting to me personally and I'm interested in what sleuthers here think about what is said.

Every link I've read says LE is investigating the case as a homicide but have not ruled out murder/suicide and they have not even released a cause of death for the mother yet...AFAIC it's a case very open to analysis of anything anyone wants to discuss....IMO

Just saying....

Sleuth away. Sorry to have rocked the boat.

 

[chinacat67]

I doubt any good Christian, or faithful churchgoer, would want to appear before God naked.

My opinion only

I'm a good Christian and I think that God made man and woman naked, not clothed, and not until original sin (apple, snake) did we become ashamed of it and God didn't want us ashamed of the human body, we did it to ourselves--I mean he did give each of our bodies to us in just the way it is--why would he want us ashamed of them?

Not like I go around naked, I certainly don't want to appear before society naked (especially since I haven't been exercising) or go to church naked , but I have no worries about appearing before God naked at the time of my death....I'm pretty sure He's seen me that way already.

Not to go O/T or to offend anyone's sensibilities--to each his own, and this is just my own....and I think, as a result, it is eminently reasonable to think that she deliberately shed her and their clothes first (again, especially if drugged and/or post-partum depression involved) thinking that we are born naked and thus we return that way at death....

 

[the seeker]

Someone mentioned upthread a baptism aspect and I think if you are drugged and as religious as she appeared, it is not weird at all. I believe murder suicide involving PPD and that she drugged the children and herself then walked to the park.

Also the husband and pastor saying she was happy is meaningless to me, again particularly in light of religious rigor involved.

AS ALWAYS MOO.


Sent from my Transformer Prime TF201 using Tapatalk HD

I guess it all depends on your view of "religion". If you feel that most ate nut jobs then I suppose your going to be suspicious. I am a Christian who is nowhere near a nut job, so what she did in my view may have had little to do with her beliefs. If she did it herself that is. If it was self inflicted I see psychosis written all over it...,combined with beliefs perhaps but not strictly due to her beliefs. It's all subjective to personal feelings about religion at this point. As far as discussion on this thread goes.

 

[the seeker]

I don't think being nude rules out murder/suicide, if it was some sort of "baptism" or "cleansing" before "going to Heaven". Clothing would not be something a part of the "spiritual" world.

There are different sects etc that believe different things but I can tell you that I don't know of any normal bible believing church that preaches naked baptism. MOO.

 

[the seeker]

I agree - plus the spirit is what goes to God, the body is an earthly vessel. I don't believe she would want her body to be naked to be found by strangers nor would she have wanted her children to be naked.

Exactly! Look at the way she was dressed in pictures. This was a modest woman in her right mind. Who knows what psychosis could have done but barring psychosis I doubt she took her own clothes off. I know these types of believers (who dress as she did), there is no way they would undress for all to see in their RIGHT mind. So to me that says either foul play or psychosis driven murdere suicide.

 

[the seeker]

(jmo) PPD causes irrational thinking and coupled with (possible) religious scrupulosity and/or religious obsessive-thinking... it could definitely be a mix for severe mental problems. Also, after some google searches, I found that nude baptism is practiced by some Christian factions (although I don't know about the Clutters' church). It's possible MC had something to do with the death of his wife and children, but currently I'm leaning towards murder/suicide.

However, even if the 10 year old went willingly into the creek... I wonder how easy it would it have been for her to drown him?

I'm mostly thinking aloud here.

Sure there are exceptions but naked baptism is not the norm, and is not according to the Bible

 

[the seeker]

I'm a good Christian and I think that God made man and woman naked, not clothed, and not until original sin (apple, snake) did we become ashamed of it and God didn't want us ashamed of the human body, we did it to ourselves--I mean he did give each of our bodies to us in just the way it is--why would he want us ashamed of them?

Not like I go around naked, I certainly don't want to appear before society naked (especially since I haven't been exercising) or go to church naked , but I have no worries about appearing before God naked at the time of my death....I'm pretty sure He's seen me that way already.

Not to go O/T or to offend anyone's sensibilities--to each his own, and this is just my own....and I think, as a result, it is eminently reasonable to think that she deliberately shed her and their clothes first (again, especially if drugged and/or post-partum depression involved) thinking that we are born naked and thus we return that way at death....

I can agree with this in light of post partum psychosis, but not without it.

 

[tlcya]

Sleuth away. Sorry to have rocked the boat.

I'm with you, I don't put too much stock in that angle of sleuthing, I just tend to skim those posts. Not out of disrespect for the posters who do subscribe to that methodology, just because I find it a very inexact science too open to interpretation for just the reasons you stated.

and I know Reader knows you weren't suggesting everyone simply not engage in dissecting statements but just voicing your own opinion on that methodology and why you choose not to subscribe to it.

 

[Reader]

I can agree with this in light of post partum psychosis, but not without it.

Is there anything that has been reported about her having post partum problems? I remember her mother very strongly denied she would hurt the children and did not mention any illness. Even the father's statements now emphasize how happy they were and how she loved him and the children. Did any of her friends mention her being ill?

I don't know much about post partum illness, can it just appear out of the blue when the child is several months old? I wonder if she had a doctor for herself and the children since the move?

 

[tlcya]

We have nothing except the bizarre circumstances of the deaths and how the bodies were found and the fact that mom had a small child to indicate that PPD or the more extreme Post Partum Sychosis may be responsible.

IMO, if her having given birth recently is a factor I feel psychosis is the more likely culprit.

http://www.pregnancy-info.net/postpartum_psychosis.html

still fence riding on this. Not sure if I think murder suicide, homicide, or what on this one.

Very strange case.

 

[fred&edna]

Sure there are exceptions but naked baptism is not the norm, and is not according to the Bible

Certainly not the norm. But I was surprised by the results when I googled "nude baptism".

And, as I noted... I was mostly just thinking aloud