IN - New Albany: Mother, two children found dead in creek

[BeginnersLuck]

I don't recall seeing this video before where the coroner speaks. She says there were no obvious signs of trauma to the bodies. I'm going to take her word over the 911 caller.

http://www.wlky.com/news/local-news...eek/-/9718538/19315418/-/d93815z/-/index.html

The creek is wider than what I had imagined.

 

[Trident]

"Odd and unexplainable things" that could be the result of her seeing and hearing things, as she is losing her grip on reality. But is the husband thick enough to really believe "strange things" were happening when it was just her illusions? Was he so willing to believe in Supernatural that he let her signs of psychosis be explained as something different?

The strange things alluded to reminds me of the Jamisons right before they got in the truck and disppeared. Weren't they seeing strange beings/aliens, and acting weird?

 

[ShyViolet]

Let's suppose all of that is true and it is also true that there is no running water, no bathtub, no hot water tap, no heat, no grocery store and none of the conveniences of modern life. How is it possible that childbirth only directly causes psychosis in our comfortable, contemporary society? I'm sure that some women find childbirth difficult to cope with, but clearly women today have it far easier than ever before ... so how can they be suffering more due to childbirth than in the past, and suffering so much that pregnancy today is responsible for psychosis?

The earliest known documentation of PPP was recorded by Hippocrates as early as approx. 400 B.C. PPP has been an officially recognized disorder since around 1850, however, there were physicians documenting cases long before it became a recognized disorder.

It is said that most women become PPP within 14 days after birth, but there is other research that shows untreated PPD can become PPP, in which case, the symptoms would be far more gradual and less noticeable. That makes sense to me, since non post partum depression can be accompanied by psychosis.

I am merely a psychiatrist wanna-be, fascinated by mental illness and disorders. Everything I've stated is MOO, but based on research via college courses, textbooks, and not simply made up. All info should be google-able as well.

 

[the seeker]

The strange things alluded to reminds me of the Jamisons right before they got in the truck and disppeared. Weren't they seeing strange beings/aliens, and acting weird?

Yeah, I'm starting to actually get the creeps. The McStay family is another one that can keep me up at night.

 

[the seeker]

It also reminds me if the WM3 case....three bodies in water, real killers still on the loose.

 

[otto]

The earliest known documentation of PPP was recorded by Hippocrates as early as approx. 400 B.C. PPP has been an officially recognized disorder since around 1850, however, there were physicians documenting cases long before it became a recognized disorder.

It is said that most women become PPP within 14 days after birth, but there is other research that shows untreated PPD can become PPP, in which case, the symptoms would be far more gradual and less noticeable. That makes sense to me, since non post partum depression can be accompanied by psychosis.

I am merely a psychiatrist wanna-be, fascinated by mental illness and disorders. Everything I've stated is MOO, but based on research via college courses, textbooks, and not simply made up. All info should be google-able as well.

If doctors and psychologists were diagnosing women with childbirth induced psychosis in the 1850s, then it was the same time period when doctors were directly causing high mortality rates in birthing women and when psychologists believed that murderous traits could be identified by phrenology. At the time that these so-called specialists were claiming that childbirth caused psychosis, they were also 100% incorrect in other contemporary beliefs.

I think it is a huge mistake to pursue the idea that childbirth causes psychosis, as it is like taking a huge step backwards into the quackology of 200 years ago and it has the potential to strip women of many basic human rights.


What did Hippocrates have to say about childbirth causing maternal psychosis ... would you happen to have a link. I know that Hippocrates was the first to understand obstetrics in terms of cause and effect, rather than magic and superstition, but I don`t know where he said that the act of giving birth results in psychosis. Regardless, it is also well understood that many of his ideas were incorrect.

 

[JaimeSommers]

Is there an LE or MSM source confirming that Mrs. Clutter reported experiencing odd/unexplainable events prior to her death? Or is the only source either a statement by Mr. Clutter or second-hand information from the pastor?

 

[LaborDayRN]

Since she grew up in that religion I don't find it that odd. Her father is a pastor. I am interested in any possible differences there may have been in her family church and the church that she attended in New Albany. Was this new church a lot different? There is not much to see on her family church online but I found plenty on the New Albany one. Was it customary for her to attend church daily in Washington? Is it normal practice for members of the New Albany church to go there daily and pray? Or, was someone fighting some "demons".

BBM: Is it customary for members of this faith or others to be brought up to rely heavily on the religious beliefs and religious leaders of a church? I mentioned before that I have seen leaders before, that were questioned by a individual and they were quickly ganged up on by others. "How dare you question the elders, that is a sin." That's some scary sheet IMO, if you don't have a good leader or you are taught that it is wrong to question others or to have your own views and opinions.

Sorry, I'm not meaning to sound like I am bashing religion or anything. I have nothing against religion and it is very beneficial for many people. I haven't found the right fit for me yet. I am still searching. I have some issues. I am not a follower of others, I like to think independently and like to have my own opinions and I do not like any form of control. Such a rebel I am :blushing: I am actually fascinated by some of the points you made in your post as it relates to human behavior.

Also, just to note, I have yet to find a connection between her husbands family and this religion, so I don't know if he grew up in this faith or joined later in life. The family that I have found of his lives way north of there. I just haven't found his family connection with this church yet I guess.

All woman are at risk of postpartum affective illness. Postpartum "baby blues" is quite common with postpartum depression appearing in about 10% - 13% of new moms (from the journal of womens health). Postpartum psychosis is quite rare.

http://www.womensmentalhealth.org/specialty-clinics/postpartum-psychiatric-disorders/

Postpartum Psychosis

Postpartum psychosis is the most severe form of postpartum psychiatric illness. It is a rare event that occurs in approximately 1 to 2 per 1000 women after childbirth. Its presentation is often dramatic, with onset of symptoms as early as the first 48 to 72 hours after delivery. The majority of women with puerperal psychosis develop symptoms within the first two postpartum weeks.

The postpartum period is characterized by a rapid shift in the hormonal environment. Within the first 48 hours after delivery, estrogen and progesterone concentrations fall dramatically. As these gonadal steroids modulate neurotransmitter systems involved in the regulation of mood, many investigators have proposed a role for these hormonal shirts in the emergence of postpartum affective illness. While it appears that there is no consistent correlation between serum levels of estrogen, progesterone, cortisol, or thyroid hormones and the occurrence of postpartum mood disturbance, some investigators hypothesize that there is a subgroup of women who are particularly sensitive to the hormonal changes that take place after delivery. This population of women may be more vulnerable to PPD and to other hormonally driven mood disturbances, such as those occurring during the premenstrual phase of the menstrual cycle or during the perimenopause.

 

[otto]

I do agree that a woman would have to be rather crazy to drown her two children and then commit suicide in 12-18 inches of water (if that is even possible), but I doubt that the cause of this could be childbirth.

Can anyone see a path for walking from the apartments to the playground area in the park where the bodies were found. If she did this, the fact that her car was at home suggests that she walked from the apartment, but why walk along the road ... unless that is closer. Do we know the exact address in the Sheffield apartment complex.

 

[LaborDayRN]

If doctors and psychologists were diagnosing women with childbirth induced psychosis in the 1850s, then it was the same time period when doctors were directly causing high mortality rates in birthing women and when psychologists believed that murderous traits could be identified by phrenology. At the time that these so-called specialists were claiming that childbirth caused psychosis, they were also 100% incorrect in other contemporary beliefs.

I think it is a huge mistake to pursue the idea that childbirth causes psychosis, as it is like taking a huge step backwards into the quackology of 200 years ago and it has the potential to strip women of many basic human rights.


What did Hippocrates have to say about childbirth causing maternal psychosis ... would you happen to have a link. I know that Hippocrates was the first to understand obstetrics in terms of cause and effect, rather than magic and superstition, but I don`t know where he said that the act of giving birth results in psychosis. Regardless, it is also well understood that many of his ideas were incorrect.

People also used to believe that those with Schizophrenia were possessed.

 

[otto]

People also used to believe that those with Schizophrenia were possessed.

That would be consistent with the ideas that pre-dated Hippocrates, when superstition and magic was used to explain the conditions of childbirth. Understanding brain and behavior was in its infancy until very recently ... and even given our new understandings, it still has to survive the test of time.

Thankfully, women have supported great changes in the perceptions surrounding childbirth since the 1850s, puerperal fever, and insane asylums with ECT treatment for postpartum depression.

 

[LaborDayRN]

Puerperal psychosis is infection based, so it is psychosis caused by infection, not childbirth, and would have been diagnosed well before a child was 6 months of age.

Post-partum depression is well documented.

Do you have a link to the information regarding the infection base? TIA

 

[otto]

Do you have a link to the information regarding the infection base? TIA

Heading out for a bit ... will look for some linked connections later.

In fact, I wondered if I was correct in that and deleted my comment, but I will research it later.

 

[LaborDayRN]

Thankfully, women have supported great changes in the perceptions surrounding childbirth since the 1850s, puerperal fever, and insane asylums with ECT treatment for postpartum depression.

I couldn't agree more.

 

[LaborDayRN]

Heading out for a bit ... will look for some linked connections later.

Thanks Otto, sounds interesting. I couldn't find any info, will look through some of my professional journals.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

All woman are at risk of postpartum affective illness. Postpartum "baby blues" is quite common with postpartum depression appearing in about 10% - 13% of new moms (from the journal of womens health). Postpartum psychosis is quite rare.

http://www.womensmentalhealth.org/specialty-clinics/postpartum-psychiatric-disorders/

I was just simply stating that in my particular situation there is no way with all the trauma and stress that I had experience they could say that the birth was the cause, if I did end up in a state of psychosis. It could be considered an additional stress factor but not the cause.

I guess I'm confused. So, from a medical perspective (I'm just using this as a example because I realize that there have been women that have only experienced psychosis after childbirth, according to what I have read) if a woman that has been known to have psychotic episodes prior to pregnancy and then has one after a birth are they going to give her two different diagnoses?

Anyway, do you think that the mother could have hid her psychosis from her husband, pastor and friends for 6 months? Would she not continue to deteriorate as time went on to the point where it would be quite obvious to others? Everyone that has made statements said she was doing good and happy. So, I'm just waiting to see what happens if they come back with murder/suicide as the cause of death. I imagine that her friends and family will deny it or blame it on demons, instead of a treatable medical condition.

 

[michmi]

I am interested in any possible differences there may have been in her family church and the church that she attended in New Albany. Was this new church a lot different? There is not much to see on her family church online but I found plenty on the New Albany one. Was it customary for her to attend church daily in Washington? Is it normal practice for members of the New Albany church to go there daily and pray?

That's a really good question. If there was a significant change, that would be a big stressor for her. I can also imagine it has to be pretty difficult to get the kids all together and ready to go to church every single day.

 

[MsFacetious]

Women have strongly advocated for childbirth to be viewed as a normal part of life in order to birth in natural positions rather than those that are convenient for medical practitioners. It seems like these women are finally finding a stronger voice, and all of a sudden we have a new consequence of childbirth (a 20th century event) where women become psychotic due to childbirth.

I really have to question whether this concept is as bumbled as we have seen in the history of childbirth, with medical practitioners being ignorant of their responsibility for the high mortality rates in birthing women (for more than two centuries), or whether this is something real. If it is real, and childbirth results in psychosis, the I'm very curious when this relationship was first identified and why. Until I understand this new problem (new in the sense of contemporary), I am absolutely not prepared to believe that childbirth can result in psychosis. Out of curiousity, have pharmaceutical companies developed a cure for this psychosis?

Please don't misunderstand ... I am not discussing post-partum depression, I am strictly referring to the hypothesis that childbirth, with the exclusion of all other factors, can result in psychosis.

sbm for space

I am one of those advocates for natural birthing.
My first two kids I was young and had complications.
Even then, I wanted a natural birth and almost got it. :banghead:

With my next child hopefully next year, I fully intend on a natural, possibly water birth.

I've also been on the receiving end of a very close friend's phone call.
A friend who had a natural home birth, cloth diapers and breastfeeds.

There is nothing more chilling than hearing your friend say 3 weeks after giving birth:
"I am going to kill my baby. Please, help me."

The woman feels guilty killing a spider. She has no mental health issues.
She is one of a handful of people I would trust with my OWN baby. (That does not include any family members.)

When I got that phone call, there was no longer any doubt in my mind of the reality of PPD or PPP.
I took her 3 week old baby and she got help. If she hadn't called me? I won't go there.

She was fine up until that day. Much like Carbuff describes. She just suddenly had an urge to kill her child.
A child she tried for YEARS to conceive and wanted more than anything. "It was like a light switch."

I believe in many, many things... including advocating.

That includes advocating for mothers who don't dare admit they have PPP.

Recognizing that PPD/PPP can happen is not a step back from the battle for natural birth.
No, there is no medication to cure PPP.
Please, research it on your own if you'd like. Come to your own conclusions.

Just please, I ask you respectfully don't minimize it in the meantime.
As you can see from members here, it is very real... and to some very personal. :seeya:

 

[fred&edna]

Thanks for the map otto. I had wondered also if there was a way for them to cross the creek. It's really hard to tell if there could be a little bridge anywhere along there. On google map view, all the trees are in full bloom. We need someone on the ground to answer that for us.

Look here on this map. See the path going from the street to the creek. It almost looks like it was mowed. I wonder if you can cross the creek there.

Binford Park, New Albany, IN - Google Maps

Sorry, I stink I pasting maps in my posts (could really use a tutor!) but I zoomed in on google maps and I see an area just down from the "mowed path" where the creek appears to be narrow enough a person could hop over... especially a playful little boy. The width here could vary depending on the season and water levels. But, I don't know how much hopping I'd be doing with a 6 month old baby in a sling?

 

[BeginnersLuck]

I remember Mrs. Clutters mother said she was on bed rest for 3??? months prior to delivery and the little boy went and stayed with them in Washington. Bed rest may have been stressful for her also.

I have to say that if a church practices healing, then there are some people that might choose not to seek conventional medicine for mental or physical illnesses.

Here's some information on organic causes of PPP.

[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_prepartum_and_postpartum_psychoses[/ame]