Israel - Palestinian militants launch massive attack, 7 Oct 2023 #13

[Stunned]

Do we know why in the last release the little girl was in a wheelchair?

I think she was shot During her abduction.

 

[aafromaa]

HAMAS is the elected governing body of Gaza.

HAMAS is a terrorist organization also, but that doesn't change the fact that HAMAS IS the government in Gaza.

Palestinians in Gaza elected HAMAS into office in 2007.

Yes Gazans did elect Hamas members to the majority of their seats in government in 2007 - well actually I think it might have been 2006. And yes they knew that Hamas seeks the total destruction of Israel and yes they knew Hamas was an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood and yes they knew Hamas was responsible for many suicide bombs and other acts of terror against Israel when they elected them. And yes they had a terrible choice between Arafat’s Fatah Party and Hamas. We often think we have to choose between the lesser of two evils when we vote but it is nothing like the choice Gazans had when they voted Hamas members into power. It wasn’t so much that they were choosing Hamas as it was they were voting against Arafat’s party as they felt they had been betrayed and let down time and time again. Either “choice” was a bad one for Palestinians.

I wonder if those who voted for Hamas leaders that day would do so today - or if they would have on Oct 6th before Hamas terrorists started this awful war. Over the years they have seen the evil of Hamas - seen them kill those who speak out against them - seen them take the aid money sent to help them build better lives and use it instead to build more rockets and tunnels - money that could have been used to build infrastructure and provide their own water instead of relying on Israel for it - money that could be used to educate their children and raise them up out of poverty but instead is used to teach their children to hate the Jews and set goals of becoming martyrs and killing Jews.

Would they still vote for Hamas today? We don’t know because Hamas has not allowed an election since they were voted in. Yes they have their own internal elections - where Hamas members vote on who will lead them - but only Hamas members are allowed to vote in those elections.

I really don’t know how the majority of Palestinians in Gaza feel about Hamas as their leaders now. I’ve seen reports that some have wanted them out for years but could not speak up or do anything about it because of what Hamas would do to them or their families. I’ve seen other reports that Hamas has radicalized the younger generation to the point that many agree with their stance that Jews should be killed and Israel wiped out - that a lot of them who were young children when Hamas took over and began teaching them to hate are now young adults with the same mindset as Hamas. But I really don’t know if that’s a majority of them or just the extremes. I don’t know if they were allowed to have elections today or in the past decade if they would vote for Hamas or not.

But I find the possibility that they might to be terrifying.

 

[justtrish]

To expect Israel to protect the citizens of Gaza when it's their very people who are carrying out terrorist attacks upon Israel is... ridiculous. It was the people of Gaza who spit upon the hostages (dead or alive-but brutalized) and cheered loudly.
And, no other country, territory, nor state wants to protect the citizens of Gaza... even the ones that Hamas isn't attacking. That speaks volumes.
The entire whine that Israel is committing war crimes is also ridiculous. It's a war started by Hamas terrorists... who are citizens of Gaza.

All jmo

I agree!!

Just imagine the US government putting military facilities under hospitals and schools. Stealing aid meant for US citizens and using it for terrorism. Stealing money and buying weapons instead of providing resources for the people. Then attacking a neighbor country so savagely that they know that neighbor will come for them and taking 240 hostages in the process... then hiding in the hospitals and and among all the innocent civilians and advising the civilians to stay and die instead of moving to safety.

Then imagine US citizens and people of the world watching expecting the neighbor country that is coming after the government that massacred it's people to somehow care more about what happens to me than what happens to their own citizens that are held hostage.

Not gonna happen. It's ridiculous to even think this because this is not how it works.

 

[Vern]

...
And, no other country, territory, nor state wants to protect the citizens of Gaza... even the ones that Hamas isn't attacking. That speaks volumes.
The entire whine that Israel is committing war crimes is also ridiculous. It's a war started by Hamas terrorists... who are citizens of Gaza.
....

Hamas indeed are citizens of Gaza ... and apparently they are all civilians too!! Judging off that casualty list of course. PHM knows how those records are supposed to be kept and separated --- they are signatories to the Geneva Conventions.

They'll need to be able to get those numbers sorted and straight for any possible visit to ICC. Combattants v. non-combattants, wounded v. killed, etc etc.

Israel has worked very hard to minimize civilian casualties despite the heavy toll by giving them 20 days advance notice to evacuate (IAW International Law) using roof-knocking, phamplets, texts and cell phone calls unlike any other nation has ever done or been required to do.

Why such a heavy toll? Because Hamas used their own people as shields and refused to allow them to evacuate. Because Hamas kept them there in their homes despite plenty and significant advance warnings and also ensured to build their military targets in and around them. Those are actually war crimes on Hamas' part, not Israels. No war would EVER be over if that was a copacetic thing to do. Irael complied with GCs and IHL and gave much more than appropriate time and warnings. Not even terrorists get to hide behind the innocents forever - rather that falls on their own repsonsibilty IAW IHL in using them as human shields and preventing freedom of movement to safer areas.

2007 = 16 years & thousands of rockets fired into Israel - every one a war crime.
2007 = 16 years and billions of dollars flushed away into tunnels and more rockets.

 

[justtrish]

Yes Gazans did elect Hamas members to the majority of their seats in government in 2007 - well actually I think it might have been 2006. And yes they knew that Hamas seeks the total destruction of Israel and yes they knew Hamas was an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood and yes they knew Hamas was responsible for many suicide bombs and other acts of terror against Israel when they elected them. And yes they had a terrible choice between Arafat’s Fatah Party and Hamas. We often think we have to choose between the lesser of two evils when we vote but it is nothing like the choice Gazans had when they voted Hamas members into power. It wasn’t so much that they were choosing Hamas as it was they were voting against Arafat’s party as they felt they had been betrayed and let down time and time again. Either “choice” was a bad one for Palestinians.

I wonder if those who voted for Hamas leaders that day would do so today - or if they would have on Oct 6th before Hamas terrorists started this awful war. Over the years they have seen the evil of Hamas - seen them kill those who speak out against them - seen them take the aid money sent to help them build better lives and use it instead to build more rockets and tunnels - money that could have been used to build infrastructure and provide their own water instead of relying on Israel for it - money that could be used to educate their children and raise them up out of poverty but instead is used to teach their children to hate the Jews and set goals of becoming martyrs and killing Jews.

Would they still vote for Hamas today? We don’t know because Hamas has not allowed an election since they were voted in. Yes they have their own internal elections - where Hamas members vote on who will lead them - but only Hamas members are allowed to vote in those elections.

I really don’t know how the majority of Palestinians in Gaza feel about Hamas as their leaders now. I’ve seen reports that some have wanted them out for years but could not speak up or do anything about it because of what Hamas would do to them or their families. I’ve seen other reports that Hamas has radicalized the younger generation to the point that many agree with their stance that Jews should be killed and Israel wiped out - that a lot of them who were young children when Hamas took over and began teaching them to hate are now young adults with the same mindset as Hamas. But I really don’t know if that’s a majority of them or just the extremes. I don’t know if they were allowed to have elections today or in the past decade if they would vote for Hamas or not.

But I find the possibility that they might to be terrifying.

I don't have any answers and I won't even pretend that I know how to "fix" all this.

I do know that Israel is in a no win situation as far as how to deal with the terrorists that live next door. I get a bit worked up about claims that they are "carpet bombing", "committing genocide", "committing war crimes" and all the other hateful things that are said because they were attacked by terrorists.. I think of 9/11 and I can't imagine NOT responding to that. It's the worst feeling to have your country attacked by people that only have one goal and that is destruction and death. I feel Israel has been tolerating it for far too long. Trying to prevent weapons from getting in because those weapons are used against them... but a blockade is viewed as Israel starving Palestinians.. no it is trying to prevent terrorists from being able to attack them whenever they want. Now we see what happened.. Israel wasn't hard enough it seems yet the world is still crying that Israel is the bad guy.

I just keep thinking about the families that were having breakfast, the people at a music festival, the innocent civilians just living a peaceful life, not harming anyone and they were just brutally attacked.. sad as it is the ones that were shot right away were the lucky ones because some women were raped and then shot, burned alive, and other horrific things..

I don't know how I would handle that, but I am pretty sure I wouldn't be demanding my country just sit by and wait while HAMAS regrouped and did it again.

 

[Mex]

I didn't say they were combatant civilians. I simply said that HAMAS is their governing authority.

As the governing authority, they have an obligation to protect their own citizens. This is not the same as say ISIS that is operating in a country against the government of that country. HAMAS IS THE GOVERNMENT. They are not protecting their own people. They didn't overthrow another government to get into power, they were elected in. This is what they do and Palestinians supported them and as we've seen footage of many still do support them. That doesn't mean that Palestinians deserve to be killed, but it isn't up to Israel to 100% protect them. Israel has an objective to get the hostages back and to remove HAMAS. HAMAS should be protecting it's own and it just is not doing that. That is not Israels fault.

There will be an accounting to be done when all this comes to an end.
And it will end hopefully sooner rather than later.

There will be issues which will be attributed to the actions of a terrorist organisation and there will be an attribution for the actions of a sovereign/independent state of which Israel is one which carries the burdens and obligations of statehood.

Independent States in the World - United States Department of State

See also: Dependencies and Areas of Special Sovereignty Total count of independent states: 197 * Diplomatic relations with the United States + Member of United Nations ! New change, since previous list Short-form name Long-form name GENC 2A Code (see Note 2) GENC 3A Code (see Note 2) Capital...

www.state.gov

It is someone's fault. Someone with power to prevent the slaughter in their thousands of Palestinians living in Gaza resuming ... and on the face of it, that is the Israeli state.
My opinion

 

[Chimera]

To expect Israel to protect the citizens of Gaza when it's their very people who are carrying out terrorist attacks upon Israel is... ridiculous. It was the people of Gaza who spit upon the hostages (dead or alive-but brutalized) and cheered loudly.
And, no other country, territory, nor state wants to protect the citizens of Gaza... even the ones that Hamas isn't attacking. That speaks volumes.
The entire whine that Israel is committing war crimes is also ridiculous. It's a war started by Hamas terrorists... who are citizens of Gaza.

All jmo

Bbm.
Ita.

First bolded : It says a lot !
Other countries fear the savagery of Palestinians/Gazans. (Yes, there are a few who do speak out, but not enough in return for the money and aid being freely given. Maybe the Gazans need to start paying for the fuel and other necessities ? Or at the least let the IDF know where Hamas is keeping it hidden ?)

Second bolded : Question : When Israel pulled out of Gaza ... had they left a thriving infrastructure ?
Considering the photos of what was still standing after the Hamas misfires, it looks like much of Gaza was stable.
What Hamas didn't burn to the ground.
For all intents and purposes, the Palestinians do have their own nation, Gaza.
And they elected whom they wanted in power.
Now the Gazan citizens are seeing the results.
Omo.

 

[JennieM]

I think this thread should become Media Only.

 

[Ravenmoon]

I think this thread should become Media Only.

What?
Why?
Dialogue about this is so important.
I would hate for that to happen.

JMO

 

[Dotta]

Dbm

 

[Momoffourboys]

Do we know why in the last release the little girl was in a wheelchair?

I think she was shot During her abduction.

I didn’t see anything released about her injury. Her name is Yuval Engel.

I did read that the father went outside to fight terrorists while the mother and daughters remained in the safe room before they were all abducted. When the IDF cleared their kibbutz and house, the found their dog (Mancha) in the safe room seriously wounded from shrapnel. She was taken to ER vet and has made a full recovery.

 

[Vern]

There will be an accounting to be done when all this comes to an end.
And it will end hopefully sooner rather than later.

There will be issues which will be attributed to the actions of a terrorist organisation and there will be an attribution for the actions of a sovereign/independent state of which Israel is one which carries the burdens and obligations of statehood.

Independent States in the World - United States Department of State

See also: Dependencies and Areas of Special Sovereignty Total count of independent states: 197 * Diplomatic relations with the United States + Member of United Nations ! New change, since previous list Short-form name Long-form name GENC 2A Code (see Note 2) GENC 3A Code (see Note 2) Capital...

www.state.gov

It is someone's fault. Someone with power to prevent the slaughter in their thousands of Palestinians living in Gaza resuming ... and on the face of it, that is the Israeli state.
My opinion

Palestine is, on their own and quite separately from Israel, a signatory to the Geneva Conventions.

 

[Mex]

Five armed Palestinian groups joined Hamas in the deadly 7 October attack on Israel after training together in military-style exercises from 2020 onwards, BBC News analysis shows.
The groups carried out joint drills in Gaza which closely resembled the tactics used during the deadly assault - including at a site less than 1km (0.6 miles) from the barrier with Israel - and posted them on social media.

How Hamas built a force to attack Israel on 7 October

BBC Arabic and BBC Verify have pieced together how armed groups came together to train for the assault.

www.bbc.co.uk

One of the biggest intelligence FAILS ever has arisen from the terrorist incursion into Israel on the 7th.

These guys trained in Gaza and they posted training videos on public social media and nobody noticed.

Is the punishment being meted out to civilians resulting in the deaths of thousands to deflect attention away from the incompetence which allowed this to happen?
It happened on Netanyahu's watch.

 

[fred&edna]

There will be an accounting to be done when all this comes to an end.
And it will end hopefully sooner rather than later.

There will be issues which will be attributed to the actions of a terrorist organisation and there will be an attribution for the actions of a sovereign/independent state of which Israel is one which carries the burdens and obligations of statehood.

Independent States in the World - United States Department of State

See also: Dependencies and Areas of Special Sovereignty Total count of independent states: 197 * Diplomatic relations with the United States + Member of United Nations ! New change, since previous list Short-form name Long-form name GENC 2A Code (see Note 2) GENC 3A Code (see Note 2) Capital...

www.state.gov

It is someone's fault. Someone with power to prevent the slaughter in their thousands of Palestinians living in Gaza resuming ... and on the face of it, that is the Israeli state.
My opinion

When the "accounting" comes to pass, I will feel confident for standing with Israel against terrorism, NOT with the face that is responsible for innocent civilian deaths... like this one:

I think it's set to begin where he's yelling about the great suicide vest factory they have created

.


jmo

 

[Mex]

When the "accounting" comes to pass, I will feel confident for standing with Israel against terrorism, NOT with the face that is responsible for innocent civilian deaths... like this one:

I think it's set to begin where he's yelling about the great suicide vest factory they have created

.


jmo

That is what terrorists do. It is expected of them.

It is not expected that a civilised heavily armed modern state indiscriminately kills thousands of unarmed and unprotected civilians and expels survivors into the elements without any means of survival.

 

[PommyMommy]

45min ago

Palestinian protest icon Ahed Tamimi said on list of 50 prisoners set for release in truce extension​

By TOI STAFF

Palestinian activist Ahed Tamimi, as she waits to meet with the Tunisian president in the capital Tunis on October 2, 2018. (FETHI BELAID / AFP / File)

Prominent Palestinian activist Ahed Tamimi is said to be on the list approved earlier of 50 female Palestinian prisoners okayed for potential early release as part of an extended truce agreement with Hamas, according to reports in the Hebrew-language media.

Tamimi was arrested just three weeks ago after posting on social media that Palestinians will “slaughter” settlers and “drink your blood.”

“Our message to the herds of settlers is that we are waiting for you in all the West Bank cities, from Hebron to Jenin,” Tamimi wrote “We will slaughter you and you will say that what Hitler did to you was a joke, we will drink your blood and eat your skulls. Come on, we’re waiting for you.”

[...]

 

[shotgun09]

45min ago

Palestinian protest icon Ahed Tamimi said on list of 50 prisoners set for release in truce extension​

By TOI STAFF

Palestinian activist Ahed Tamimi, as she waits to meet with the Tunisian president in the capital Tunis on October 2, 2018. (FETHI BELAID / AFP / File)

Prominent Palestinian activist Ahed Tamimi is said to be on the list approved earlier of 50 female Palestinian prisoners okayed for potential early release as part of an extended truce agreement with Hamas, according to reports in the Hebrew-language media.

Tamimi was arrested just three weeks ago after posting on social media that Palestinians will “slaughter” settlers and “drink your blood.”

“Our message to the herds of settlers is that we are waiting for you in all the West Bank cities, from Hebron to Jenin,” Tamimi wrote “We will slaughter you and you will say that what Hitler did to you was a joke, we will drink your blood and eat your skulls. Come on, we’re waiting for you.”

[...]

"She seems nice"....said no one ever. IMO
Goodness. Who approved that one for release?

 

[PommyMommy]

Any word today on how Elma Abraham is doing?

"Elma was in Hamas captivity for 51 days and nights. She was kept in a harsh condition. She was denied lifesaving medication. She was not visited by the Red Cross."A message for the
@ICRC from IDF Spokesperson RAdm. Daniel Hagari:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1729284638261100850

 

[Friday Fan]

DBM Duplicate

 

[Izzylizzy]

Israel just may have to swap Marwan Barghouti this time when it comes down to Hamas/ilk releasing Israeli soldiers and men.

There's quite a few articles on him now pertaining to future leadership.
He has been and remains President Abbas's worst nightmare for losing power to.

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