JLM: Morgan Harrington/Fairfax Rape Victim - *Forensic Link* to MH #2

[MJPeony]

.....

As for most people presuming JM is innocent!?! Are you kidding me. They all know how he stalks victims, how he subdues them, how many victims there are, his thoughts, not to mention the value added judgments on his intelligence, physical appearance, occupation, football playing, his declared major, his grandmother, and so on. Tell me how any of these asides and musings help in finding Hannah, or in aiding the police in bringing whoever is responsible to justice. Last I checked both HG and MH were open cases, so in my mind until LE goes to trial and proves their case, everything else is still on the table and open for discussion.

On the one hand, JM is presumed innocent, but because LE is building a case we treat him as guilty to help LE secure his conviction to the exclusion of all else? I think that is what you are saying. I am not going to comment on that further, but will say I think there is room for us all out here. If mods feel otherwise, please clarify.

This is why we have multiple threads. You can always set me to "ignore" status.

Not sure what you mean by your comment on defense attorneys, so I will go with the positive and take it as a compliment.

snipped for space/brevity

No need to put you on ignore. There's definitely room for multiple perspectives- I don't think anybody wants a forum full of clones. I'm however personally finding a lot of the JM-is-innocent-until-proven-guilty posts to be causing thread derailment and we end up rehashing all sorts of basics like why we should we even think there is a MH link to HG, why we think it matters that he was last seen on video with HG, why it could be important that he drove a cab, etc. In other words (and those examples are just examples), I feel if we WS'ers have to continually be defending LE's charges against JM we end up spinning wheels.

I don't think most people here assume JM is innocent in their own minds- agreed! I think many people think he is very very guilty. I think some think he probably is. I think some think he might be. I think very few think he is fully innocent (which actually is part of my point if you think about it...).

My experience here on the forum is that most posters actually very much respect due process and our US legal system. Thus, when people approach the goal of Finding Hannah here, posters I believe generally suspend that legal right of JM to be innocent-until-proven-guilty in order to sleuth the facts available surrounding the legally named suspect in her disappearance. It's nearly by definition that we have to. You are right- LE is certainly not infallible. It's good to have critical thinking and checks and balances. But the critical thinking about JM being wholly just the wrong man ("barking up the wrong tree" as you said) can get to be a distraction IMO that is counter-productive.

Not saying there shouldn't be discussion, just voicing what I personally find most helpful. I appreciate critical thinking and would not want to discourage such.

And my comment about a defense attorney approach was to say that I thought you were approaching your line of thinking as if one would be trying to defend him as his attorney. Was neither derogatory nor complimentary

 

[Greg2969]

The two other rapes in Cville happened a few days after HG was last seen. Five days before JM did the great Teaxas flee. But from my own research, I don't think they are related.

And who knows if JM is a psychopath, but with my encounter with one, they lay out all the charm in the world. Sometimes too much so that it creeps a person out, but others are more suave about it. The bit about putting his arms around Hannah on the downtown mall was frankly a bit odd to me. I'd be curious to talk to his ex girlfriend. As a true psychopath is like a boomerang. They will return after weeks of no contact. Stalking, cyber stalking. Curious how and what he did as far as contact and communication after it ended.

The two additional rapes occurred the following two nights after HG disappeared and happened in same area where she started her journey that nght

 

[trex]

So the two other women in the additional rapes that occurred right after HG disappeared must have come forward.. But is there any other information? I imagine they would have done a rape kit and gotten DNA, and did either of them get a look at their attacker? Not sure if this was already covered previously in a diff thread but wondering if JLM has been ruled out of these or not since nobody seems to know what he was doing for a couple days after HG vanished?

 

[rossva]

With the way Morgan Harrington's belongings were scattered about and the condition she was (allegedly) in I find it plausible that she and the necklace were separated before she was abducted. If, as some say, she did fall and hurt herself, the necklace could have fallen off then. Or she could have placed it in her purse and it fell out at some point. As many people that were in the area, many from out of town, for the concert, some one could have stumbled across it and kept it, not realizing who's it was.

 

[jamicat]

<snipped for space> This highlights one of the things I have trouble with in JM being a serial killer. Despite the clear similarities in MH and HG, there seems to be very little the same other than a vulnerable girl with similar general looks (both tall, slender blondes but look nothing alike). Not all serial killers leave signatures but I see that going on with MH but why not HG? Looking at MH:

Body left purposely in un mown hay field that can be accessed only on a 4x4. Did JM carry her in? Don't think his taxi would have made it in.

A distinct, expensive Svarofski crystal necklace was taken off of HM and has yet to be recovered. The perp did leave a distinctive gold bracelet found with her remains. So where is JM hiding said necklace?

Police brush off the Pantera tee shirt. I think it was a signature or F you to a lot of people. It is brazenly displayed and not far from where a witness (again discounted by LE) swears she saw HM at 3:45 am after she supposedly disappeared at around 9:30 near the arena. Her cell phone and purse found in overflow lot near arena. Whoever did this to HM knows the area super well. He started on campus, knows back roads, and ended it on campus again with the tee shirt. Is he mocking LE by leaving a big clue within a block of where he may have been with HG hours after police insist she was last seen alive on Copeley Road at 9:30 pm? Remember, no one saw her get into a car on that road. Why are witnesses in one area validated and the one on campus hours later dismissed despite multiple attempts on her part to share what she saw with police?

Interestingly HG's last text message is sent near where the shirt was found and there were at least two sexual assaults a block or so from same area while JM was in Texas or on way back to VA. Police say unrelated but they also said that shirt was of no significance. JM does know the area well and fits the profile for location and victim selection, but in my opinion it ends there for me.

I don't see JM as someone saving a necklace as a trophy, or brazenly displaying his victim's shirt for all the world to see. I am shocked LE does not see that as significant; even if it is not any sort of message it is teeming with DNA or other trace evidence. HM hurt herself that night and her chin was bleeding. That shirt is clearly important. He is batting us over the head with it. It did not just slip off of her or get dropped like a cell phone. It had to be taken off her body. The killer takes souvenirs.

Did LE search for any thing else MH may have been wearing in JM's home? Does JM have any mementio hidden in his closet? I highly doubt it. IMO, JM does not come close to fitting that profile. He just seems like he would be happy to get laid even if he had to find a girl who might pass out under him or need a little nudge or extra tight grip to be convinced. I see it ending there. He is certainly no angel, but there are lots of frat boys who act like JM according to Coy Barefoot, but happen to do it every weekend in groups.Oh, and they too are not immune to sexual assault charges. They just don't get hauled in by the police and tagged as a suspect because they were seen on video with a missing girl. I just do not person who killed MH as dense enough to pluck his next victim off a popular, nightspot on a weekend, at closing time no less, in view of surveillance cameras and numerous witnesses. Not to mention leaving a paper trail for LE in purchasing a drink for an already well inebriated girl? Helllooo! This just ensures even more people can place them together.

It is documented that HG was at a party with a young man who offered to walk her home. Did he instead just follow her? What is his alibi? Witnesses saw them together. What is his story? How do we know she was not slipped some sort of drug at a party? She was unsteady and disoriented before she met up with JM on the mall.

Yes, Hannah's cell phone is missing but given the magnitude of the search if it were dumped someone would have spotted it. There is also some mystery surrounding her last text. She was not physically in the location she texted to her friends when the message is sent. Who sent that message? Again, it doesn't fit JM in my opinion. He is all about getting laid, the person abducting and/or raping then murdering young women, collecting trophies, and displaying them is someone else entirely, I think. JM was singled out because he was caught on video trying to hook up with a drunk girl who went missing, jump to HM, skip over to the Fairfax rapist DNA connection to HM who happens to be that of a black person, and voila! have JM. This is all LE has to go on it appears to me. Kinda explains why they can find no trace of Hannah after nearly a month of intensive searching. They are barking up the wrong tree.

Message to Mods: I was replying to post in Searching for Hannah but feel they will not find her without comparing more than obvious in both cases. I am saying that the perp is not so easily figured out - he is at home in the hills, valleys, and on campus. In my mind they go hand in hand. I can see that this belongs more here but thought it would confuse since replying to post in other thread. Sorry!

I agree with you on most of the things you say in this post. A reason why I think the Fairfax 2005 doesn't fit in the picture is because, it seems to me JM was very singularly focused in bringing the girl into his fold and then making moves, not looking for that stranger rape scene. I would guess he did not consider himself a rapist at all. So I'm waiting for the DNA results on that.

I do think the MH and Hannah cases are very similar, in that in both cases, he had the opportunity to offer the women rides, they were in a situation where they would willingly accept, and then it turned into a version of "date rape". I also think there wasn't a whole lot of thought involved in this. He just doesn't fit the deep planning serial killer profile to me. He wanted to "get lucky" regularly, but would get rough and take what he wanted if the victim objected. I 'd be willing to bet that a number of women were coerced into having sex with him because they went off a lone with him and a number probably were incapacitated in a number of ways just as Hannah and MH were when it happened. I'm sure some have gone privately to LE now that this has become so public.

The young man who said he offered to walk Hannah home (when she clearly wasn't heading home at all) has talked to LE, and though we can't know for sure, he's probably alibied and cleared. Looks to me like it was party night at the Corner. It certainly cannot be ruled out unless police have some good evidence to the contrary, that JM did drop off Hannah back into her area, she met up with someone and something happened to her with that person and JM had nothing to do with the fact tha's she's disappeared. The odds are not good on that theory, and LE seems confident they have the perp. We are not privvy to the evidence the police have.

 

[jamicat]

snipped for space/brevity

No need to put you on ignore. There's definitely room for multiple perspectives- I don't think anybody wants a forum full of clones. I'm however personally finding a lot of the JM-is-innocent-until-proven-guilty posts to be causing thread derailment and we end up rehashing all sorts of basics like why we should we even think there is a MH link to HG, why we think it matters that he was last seen on video with HG, why it could be important that he drove a cab, etc. In other words (and those examples are just examples), I feel if we WS'ers have to continually be defending LE's charges against JM we end up spinning wheels.

I don't think most people here assume JM is innocent in their own minds- agreed! I think many people think he is very very guilty. I think some think he probably is. I think some think he might be. I think very few think he is fully innocent (which actually is part of my point if you think about it...).

My experience here on the forum is that most posters actually very much respect due process and our US legal system. Thus, when people approach the goal of Finding Hannah here, posters I believe generally suspend that legal right of JM to be innocent-until-proven-guilty in order to sleuth the facts available surrounding the legally named suspect in her disappearance. It's nearly by definition that we have to. You are right- LE is certainly not infallible. It's good to have critical thinking and checks and balances. But the critical thinking about JM being wholly just the wrong man ("barking up the wrong tree" as you said) can get to be a distraction IMO that is counter-productive.

Not saying there shouldn't be discussion, just voicing what I personally find most helpful. I appreciate critical thinking and would not want to discourage such.

And my comment about a defense attorney approach was to say that I thought you were approaching your line of thinking as if one would be trying to defend him as his attorney. Was neither derogatory nor complimentary

I don't have a problem with those assuming JM guilty, given the preponderance of evidence that is out there. However, to out and out say he did it can make it very confusing, as well as any statement that is so stated that anyone reading it thinks that it is indeed so, rather than the writer so believes it, that it is "lkely" to be so, that evidence points to it being so. This isn't a court of law so we don't have to stick to the presumption of innocence, but it to out and out say something that is not yet certainty makes me pause. It also can give someone the wrong idea of what is so.

I've seen some posts just straight on say, "When JM raped that woman in Fairfield in 2005.....", and when that happens, I get a "whoa, there" reaction. It's not yet a given, and to so state it, confuses things.

 

[Bryan9]

Be aware that mods will start deleting off-topic posts... there are a lot of recent posts on this thread that would be better placed in "What do we know about JLM" (for example, the several very interesting posts about SK profiles). Personally, I think a lot of the seemingly off-topic posts really were intended as a comment on the forensic link to MH, but posters forgot to make the connection in the heat of the moment. Please remember to do so!

 

[Conductor71]

With the way Morgan Harrington's belongings were scattered about and the condition she was (allegedly) in I find it plausible that she and the necklace were separated before she was abducted. If, as some say, she did fall and hurt herself, the necklace could have fallen off then. Or she could have placed it in her purse and it fell out at some point. As many people that were in the area, many from out of town, for the concert, some one could have stumbled across it and kept it, not realizing who's it was.

Not so sure this means anything, but MH actually dumped the contents of her purse several times outside the arena according to several witnesses, so I don't know that the perp had anything to do with that. Oddly, the back to her cellphone (and battery?) were missing, but have never been found. With Hannah there is only video footage that we know, though I imagine there is more than they are revealing. How is that "I am lost" text message end up with the wrong location info in it. Did someone besides Hannah draft and send it?

Good point on the necklace though it has received quite a lot of publicity in and of itself in numerous media outlets appealing to the public for help on the case. If someone did keep it, I would hope they might step up at a later date and share with police as it might be useful to solving the case. I think it was something the police did not share right away but was later released to generate new tips.

Her camera went missing too. That is one thing I wondered about Hannah. She had her cell phone on her obviously. I take it she was not carrying any sort of wallet or small purse with ID?

The t -shirt; however, is another story. It did not just fall off of her nor was it ripped off. Someone suggested that it was found elsewhere and a student set it on a bush so someone might claim it. Possible but seems unlikely; how many personal articles might one find in a college town and on how many campuses will you find a revolving lost and found corner? It took quite a while for someone to even notice it. I still think it is significant, maybe not a trophy, but definitely sends some sort of message. While it had MH's DNA, I doubt the perp left behind any trace of his on it. Wonder if it will become evidence now or it JM, if he is MH's killer, left behind anything that will ID him on it? We shall see. Or not.

This is just blathering aloud to myself at this point, but I do not understand why LE still refuses to share when they hit a lull in searching. JM is not going to talk any time soon it would appear and the hours tick by. Why not carefully select things that might trigger people to come forward? They did that with MH over time, and maybe if they did so with HG sooner than later; while the search is still making media news headlines, it may yield help in finding her. You never know. That saying you can't do the same thing over and over expecting different results applies IMO.

 

[human]

Be aware that mods will start deleting off-topic posts... there are a lot of recent posts on this thread that would be better placed in "What do we know about JLM" (for example, the several very interesting posts about SK profiles). Personally, I think a lot of the seemingly off-topic posts really were intended as a comment on the forensic link to MH, but posters forgot to make the connection in the heat of the moment. Please remember to do so!

That is a real problem as people think differently. That is why brainstorming with others is so great.

For instance for me, learning about SK totally fits in with that he may be a SK because of other potential victims, Characteristcs of an SK made me totally rethink of him as an SK.

i don't know if this will make any sense, but it does to me. I have a friend who is a paralegal , coincidentally right in this area although she does not work as one anymore.

She took 2 semesters of filing. Putting things into categories is not very easy if anyone has ever tried filing.

What someone sees as irrelevant, another sees it a different way.

Kind of like Newton and the apple.

So how does this relate to how SK's operate with their victims? Very interesting

 

[MomnVA]

I keep wondering about the "forensic link" (and probably DNA link if we believe unnamed sources) between HG and MH.
What if that link were to be MH's DNA found in JM's cab, not JM DNA from MH's remains as many assume/believe.
How would that change the picture, in terms of the case against JM and any link between JM and Fairfax rape?
I don't know enough (anything!) about DNA evidence, so maybe it's a stupid question...?

 

[human]

Gil said there was DNA evidence on MH's body, correct?

 

[otto]

Gil said there was DNA evidence on MH's body, correct?

That's correct. The DNA on Morgan's body was matched to the DNA from the 2005 Fairfax rape case. There is no question that Morgan, and the 2005 rape victim, were assaulted by the same person. There is also a connection between Morgan and Hannah through forensic evidence.

 

[Conductor71]

I keep wondering about the "forensic link" (and probably DNA link if we believe unnamed sources) between HG and MH.
What if that link were to be MH's DNA found in JM's cab, not JM DNA from MH's remains as many assume/believe.
How would that change the picture, in terms of the case against JM and any link between JM and Fairfax rape?
I don't know enough (anything!) about DNA evidence, so maybe it's a stupid question...?

I have always assumed this. If they found it on her remains, I would think JM would be facing charges in MH's case too! That forensic link could be hair or fibers (fingerprints do not last long enough to qualify). It could be environmental forensics like plant traces that link both up to JM. Even DNA is not always irrefutable proof of anything. It can be weak or strong and is still open to interpretation among experts. There is this belief that DNA is the end all and be all of a case. It is in fact, is just one part of the larger picture. Over the last several years, there has been much published criticism on DNA and forensics; it is not hard science at all. It can be manufactured, manipulated, and planted at many stages of an investigation. Not saying that is going on here, but it is useful to keep that in mind.

The 2009 National Academy of Science committee report, &#8220;Strengthening Forensic Science in the U.S.: A Path Forward,&#8221; also reported that, &#8220;With the exception of nuclear DNA analysis, however, no forensic method has been rigorously shown to have the capacity to consistently, and with a high degree of certainty, demonstrate a connection between evidence and a specific individual or source.&#8221; It further observed that, again except when it addresses nuclear DNA analysis that has been properly conducted, forensic testimony at trials often exceeds the limitations of mainstream science.

http://www.statesman.com/news/news/opinion/make-forensic-evidence-meet-standards-of-science/nTWHn/

 

[otto]

I have always assumed this. If they found it on her remains, I would think JM would be facing charges in MH's case too! That forensic link could be hair or fibers (fingerprints do not last long enough to qualify). It could be environmental forensics like plant traces that link both up to JM. Even DNA is not always irrefutable proof of anything. It can be weak or strong and is still open to interpretation among experts. There is this belief that DNA is the end all and be all of a case. It is in fact, is just one part of the larger picture. Over the last several years, there has been much published criticism on DNA and forensics; it is not hard science at all. It can be manufactured, manipulated, and planted at many stages of an investigation. Not saying that is going on here, but it is useful to keep that in mind.

The 2009 National Academy of Science committee report, “Strengthening Forensic Science in the U.S.: A Path Forward,” also reported that, “With the exception of nuclear DNA analysis, however, no forensic method has been rigorously shown to have the capacity to consistently, and with a high degree of certainty, demonstrate a connection between evidence and a specific individual or source.” It further observed that, again except when it addresses nuclear DNA analysis that has been properly conducted, forensic testimony at trials often exceeds the limitations of mainstream science.

http://www.statesman.com/news/news/opinion/make-forensic-evidence-meet-standards-of-science/nTWHn/

Police have confiscated the taxi that JM drove in 2009, so it looks like they are building a case against him for the murder of Morgan. Morgan's case is the strongest case because there is a murder, there is a body, there is one crime scene, there is DNA of the perp, they have the vehicle JM was driving at the time of the murder (possibly second crime scene) ... hopefully it's just a matter of time until murder charges are laid.

 

[Conductor71]

That's correct. The DNA on Morgan's body was matched to the DNA from the 2005 Fairfax rape case. There is no question that Morgan, and the 2005 rape victim, were assaulted by the same person. There is also a connection between Morgan and Hannah through forensic evidence.

That would imply that the same person is involved in the 2005 rape and MH. This does not mean that this same perp is responsible for HG's disappearance. That is my take away.

Note: From what I have read this DNA link may be indirect. Does anyone have any update to this?

http://www.readthehook.com/89512/dna-advance-harringtons-parents-pleased-familial-approval

 

[Conductor71]

Police have confiscated the taxi that JM drove in 2009, so it looks like they are building a case against him for the murder of Morgan. Morgan's case is the strongest case because there is a murder, there is a body, there is one crime scene, there is DNA of the perp, they have the vehicle JM was driving at the time of the murder (possibly second crime scene) ... hopefully it's just a matter of time until murder charges are laid.

I remain skeptical until the the forensic evidence is shared and proven sound. I will be on the fence until they go to trial then. I think JM is guilty of some things maybe in both cases; we don't yet know enough. I suspected the cab thing was a part of the story awhile ago, but unless they over all have a strong case the cab thing seems to me circumstantial at least now. JM drove a taxi that night, without being privy to fare logs, witness statements, and any sort of alibi, this does not say Jesse was anywhere near HM when she disappeared. In looking more closely at the profile LE are developing now of JM in light of other details in HM's death, I don't see JM as being her killer, just my opinion. I hate to antagonize and seem disrespectful to LE, but I am still on the fence.

 

[MomnVA]

That would imply that the same person is involved in the 2005 rape and MH. This does not mean that this same perp is responsible for HG's disappearance. That is my take away.

Note: From what I have read this DNA link may be indirect. Does anyone have any update to this?

http://www.readthehook.com/89512/dna-advance-harringtons-parents-pleased-familial-approval

I have no update. But the way I read & understood the article -- it's talking about being able to indirectly find & link JM through his father's (or other relative's) DNA if such were in the database.
But in this case, there was a direct swab from JM himself upon his arrest. So they don't need to do the familial route, I gather.
I hope, but am not assuming, that it's all a direct absolute slam-dunk link to everything. One step at a time.
MOO.

 

[otto]

That would imply that the same person is involved in the 2005 rape and MH. This does not mean that this same perp is responsible for HG's disappearance. That is my take away.

Note: From what I have read this DNA link may be indirect. Does anyone have any update to this?

http://www.readthehook.com/89512/dna-advance-harringtons-parents-pleased-familial-approval

That's correct. DNA on Morgan's body is from the same person that left DNA on the rape victim.

"Investigators will only say that forensic evidence ties the suspect to Morgan Harrington's abduction and murder in Charlottesville. But Harrington's parents confirmed this afternoon it was DNA found on Morgan that matches the suspect in the Fairfax case."

http://www.wlox.com/story/12742496/update-morgan-harringtons-death-linked-to-case-in-Fairfax

"The man suspected of abducting 18-year-old Hannah Graham from the Downtown Mall in Charlottesville, Virginia earlier this month is forensically linked to the 2009 disappearance of 20-year-old Virginia Tech student Morgan Harrington"

http://wtvr.com/2014/09/29/hannah-graham-morgan-harrington-connection/

 

[Concerned Mama]

That's correct. DNA on Morgan's body is from the same person that left DNA on the rape victim.

"Investigators will only say that forensic evidence ties the suspect to Morgan Harrington's abduction and murder in Charlottesville. But Harrington's parents confirmed this afternoon it was DNA found on Morgan that matches the suspect in the Fairfax case."

http://www.wlox.com/story/12742496/update-morgan-harringtons-death-linked-to-case-in-Fairfax

"The man suspected of abducting 18-year-old Hannah Graham from the Downtown Mall in Charlottesville, Virginia earlier this month is forensically linked to the 2009 disappearance of 20-year-old Virginia Tech student Morgan Harrington"

http://wtvr.com/2014/09/29/hannah-graham-morgan-harrington-connection/

otto, I have only been here at WS a month, but I have quickly come to recognize your name as one who posts sensible and worthwhile info, backed up with reliable sources. Thank you!

 

[Bryan9]

That is a real problem as people think differently. That is why brainstorming with others is so great.

I agree wholeheartedly. It's precisely because I value everyone's thoughts that I'm concerned that the mods are threatening deletion! I avidly follow your posts and always -- always -- learn from them.