JLM: Morgan Harrington/Fairfax Rape Victim - *Forensic Link* to MH #3

[Heroine]

I dont know how you would account for animal activity ,in addition soft tissue damage would create a fast decomposition rate as would the moisture level.
I really do not see Gill stating that if it were untrue. The event made a huge impact on her.

Stating what? I'm not being snotty, just really trying to figure out what you mean.

 

[MomnVA]

Exactly! Everything was exactly the same! The way they look, the scenario where they became alone at some point after partying, the time of year, the way they just vanished into thin air. There wasn't a single thing different about HG case vs MH. Not one thing!!!!! Think about it!

The biggest difference I see is that 5 years later, the hunter appears to have gained the confidence or arrogance or ease or carelessness -- or all -- to be doing his hunting out in the open, instead of alone in his cab. And I pray that's what will have nailed him.

 

[Evie Ivy Over]

I dont know how you would account for animal activity ,in addition soft tissue damage would create a fast decomposition rate as would the moisture level.
I really do not see Gill stating that if it were untrue. The event made a huge impact on her.

Apparently, insects also cause substantial tissue damage. I don't know how many would be around at the end of October in VA, but probably enough.

 

[otto]

But who has an alibi between 1am and whenever? Not saying I believe JM is not the perp, as he certainly appears to be, but I know I am alone at night from 7pm-4am most night since my husband works nights and never have a solid alibi, or "proof" of anything and my family certainly wouldn't have it for me.

Everyone has an alibi, the question is whether it sounds plausible. Most people are at home asleep at 1AM. That's an alibi. Jesse was a cab driver when Morgan vanished. Was he accounted for after 9:30 on the night Morgan disappeared? Jesse was in the bar with Hannah shortly after 1AM on the night Hannah vanished, and he was holding up an incapacitated Hannah when they were last seen.

What is his reasonable alibi?

 

[otto]

My question is why people are so anxious to jump on the bandwagon to presume guilt before they know all the facts! There's a lot going against JLM as far as "what we know", but for me, I would rather look for explanations for things that might look really bad on the surface but aren't, and to exhaust all possibilities that someone else wasn't involved. I guess I've read too many Innocence Project success stories... I'd really rather go the route of presuming innocence before a conviction rather than have to clean up the pieces of incarceration that possibly occurred as a result of an incomplete or flawed investigation--I don't think you really can go back and clean up that damage. My sentiments on this are not applicable to only this case, I find myself reacting the same way in all true crime cases I've followed.

Bandwagon? How often is it that a man is arrested with intent to defile a privileged young woman, and it just turns out that he's connected with the murder of another privileged young woman? How many women were hit in the head as they walked home from the grocery store? How often do we see a case on this forum where one man is suddenly connected with three, and possibly more raped, assaulted, and murdered women across States? Not often. That much I know to be true.

 

[otto]

Well if he still had that live in girlfriend, he could have an alibi. I am not sure if he was seeing her back in 2009. He had friends, partied, seems like an extrovert. Besides, given how awkward he is made out to be makes him easier to place; he stands out.

Who seems like an extrovert ... Jesse Matthews ... who accosts women, throws his arm around them, and leads them to their death - Hannah Graham. Jesse Matthew, described as follows, is obviously an extrovert ... an aggressive, predatorial extravert. He stood out because he was accosting women all night long.

"“He kept trying to put his hands on my legs, above and below the knee,” the young woman says. “He’d been way too aggressive all night, putting his arm around me, picking me up, putting his hands on my legs. I looked at him and told him to keep his hands off of me.” They were in Tempo Restaurant on Fifth Street in downtown Charlottesville. It was shortly after midnight, in the early morning hours of Saturday, September 13."

http://insidecville.com/blog/ljs-timeline/

 

[jamicat]

There are people on here who apparently think that JLM is a victim of something or another.

I am not interested in court or lawyers, etc on here. WS is not a court.

I am so very curious why people think JLM is innocent. Innocent of anything. Rape, murder, intent to defile. Any charge they may feel he is a victim.

I feel he is guilty because of the rapes, the forensic links, the video. Other things such as the cab.

So what points to his not being the perp?

I don't think very many people here think JM is innocent of all of this in terms of this forum. But, yes, right now in a court of law he is innocent until proven guilty, and he has not been proven guilty there and that is what will prevail whatever the sentiments here or anywhere. But in discussion here, we don't have to hold to that standard, and we are not. I think many of us do not want things stated as a fact when it has not yet been so proven and LE has not even stated it, and the state of VA has not yet even charged JM. That's not even coming close to a court of law yet. JM has not been charged with rape, much less murder, bear in mind, for Hannah, and not for anything with the other cases yet.

What points to his not being the perp as of right now in the MH case is that he is not so charged yet. A forensic link has been made between the Hannah Graham case and the MH case. The charge for Hannah is the Abduction with intent to defile, not rape, not assault, not murder. That he took her away somewhere with plans to "defile" her, not that he did it. That's as far as the DA is wiling to go right now and HE has more of the evidence than we do. We'll see what happens.

For what it's worth, I agree with you. These things are usually simple, and things point directly to JM. As Heroine, so neatly stated, "the plethora of coincidences" is too much.

 

[otto]

I hate to sound repetitious, but do we know his family is not talking to LE? Would we know if they did? I'm sure they've asked them not to speak to the media, if they even have anything of use to contribute. I feel sorry for them.

I suspect that his family has been told straight up that they can be charged with assisting Jesse with flight from authorities unless they speak up ... and he was driving his sister's car. That, in itself, appears like she helped him with flight. Either they are cooperating as much as is necessary, or they've been arrested. I doubt they are forthcoming given their appearance on camera ordering people off their property.

 

[otto]

Thank you very much! That's what I thought all along. I live in VA I remember the weather that year. I followed the MH case all the way. I have my hands full these days though with 2 little girls and I just don't have time to do a lot of research, not like I would like to. But once again, thank you so much for that. Smart thinking! I took chemistry and algebra and know all these things yet didn't think to do that. Very clever!

I complete a PMAT degree, so arithmetic is easy, but time consuming.

I knew it. I remembered it. Morgan was not simple a skeleton after 101 days. Given decomposition formulas and the fact that it was snowy and cold, there was no bug activity to worry about as she lay in the field. Even if the formula is wrong by a month, there was still tissue present for testing. Morgan was not completely skeletonized after three months in a field, and Laci Peterson was not completely skeletonized after four months at the bottom of the ocean.

There was enough tissue to test for rape. A DNA match was made between Morgan and a rape victim. That's a fact.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

For MH? All we know for sure is that there is a forensic link between Hannah's case and MH's, and it's likely to be some sort of DNA evidence. Since we don't know if the link came from JM's buccal swab or from something in his car or apartment, it's hard to say how strong that link/evidence is. What else in terms of evidence do we have on JM and the MH case? Yes, a plethora of coincidences (I love the phrase you picked, by the way, you do have a way with words), but that doesn't always lead to even charges. FOr all of the evidence, in Hannah's disappearance, LE could not arrest JM. There is even less in terms of evidence in the MH case right now, and again no charges as of yet, for any number of possibilities, against JM. It's all up in the air.

Most of us here agree with your sentiments, Heroine, but it isn't what drives the charges or the verdict. We aren't even at the stage where DA wants to charge JM. We don't know what the DNA evidence is. I have no idea how reconstituted DNA works and how it is viewed in a court case if that is what has to be used to get the match. Some posters here have given us some really good info that I knew little about, now I know more. But how does that work in terms of acceptable evidence in a court of law, has it been used in the past? Enough for charges? Charges that will hold? It will all play out, Im sure. They have JM in custody. They have the state of the art, primo buccal swab from him. Let's see where it goes in the MH case. Right now most of the focus is on the Hannah Graham case because some charges have been filed, there is a court date and LE and the DA are going to have to present what they have for that. What they have for MH and how and when and if charges will be filed have yet to be disclosed.

In a preliminary hearing the DA never presents all of the evidence he/she has in any case. There is no need. All he/she has to do is put forth enough evidence to show the Judge that the case should be forward to the GJ for a possible indictment. That is if his defense attorney doesn't waive the PH which attorneys have done before to make sure none of the evidence is known to the public at large.

We may even see additional charges handed down by the GJ if it is forwarded by the Judge and I have no doubt the Judge will find solid probable cause to do so. Once it is in the hands of the GJ they are allowed by law to recommend any charges where they think the evidence has shown any area of the law was broken. In fact I just read an example of that about the guy who jumped over the fence and entered the White House. He originally had two counts against him but the GJ has indicted him now and he has not two but four charges.

So no DA ever shows all of his/her evidence at a PH. In fact they will only show what they feel is just enough to get it forwarded to the GJ and nothing more. They do not want his attorney to know all the evidence they possess at this time. They will keep the most important evidence close to their vest. His attorney is not privy to any discovery at this particular time. So that is why he says he knows nothing about the evidence they have against JM in Hannah's case or the other cases he is said to be linked to. If he doesn't waive the PH he will only hear a small part of it during the hearing.

Any forensic link tying this particular defendant to Morgan's murder and the 2005 rape will not bode well for him. Several types of forensic links are entered into our courtrooms day in and day out. Imo, it will be a legally obtained forensic link which is already recognized in our court system and it will be front and center when he is charged.

There is no rush to charge him in Morgan's case or the 2005 rape case. He isn't going anywhere and LE knows it and so does his own attorney. So now that LE knows they have finally found the forensic link matching JM the investigation surrounding JM is in full throes now. That is why they were back interviewing all cab drivers who were there when he drove a cab in 2009. Once they complete their full investigation of JM he will be charged with Morgan's murder.

IMO

 

[otto]

No, but it's a slightly different scenario for a victims's family to speak out and a suspect's family. In theory the victims family and LE are working towards a common goal. A suspect's family who wants to share proof of innocence when LE wants to share proof of guilt is definitely a more complicated situation.

By all means ... please have the suspect's family share an alibi so he can be stricken from the suspect list and the real suspect pursued ... unless that's not possible.

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

My question is why people are so anxious to jump on the bandwagon to presume guilt before they know all the facts! There's a lot going against JLM as far as "what we know", but for me, I would rather look for explanations for things that might look really bad on the surface but aren't, and to exhaust all possibilities that someone else wasn't involved. I guess I've read too many Innocence Project success stories... I'd really rather go the route of presuming innocence before a conviction rather than have to clean up the pieces of incarceration that possibly occurred as a result of an incomplete or flawed investigation--I don't think you really can go back and clean up that damage. My sentiments on this are not applicable to only this case, I find myself reacting the same way in all true crime cases I've followed.

Meanwhile, in the process of exhausting all possibilities of a person's involvement, one is as likely to harm further innocent victims as to save an innocent suspect from conviction.

Neither extreme is fair; not fair to the suspect in one case and certainly not fair to the general public in the other.

It may prove to be a very sad irony for many here to realize, had there been fewer people willing to give Matthew a general pass for so many years (such a big, sweetie!) when he had initially been under suspicion for various sexual assaults and rapes ~ there could have been, instead, many lives saved.

MOO

 

[Soulmagent]

Stating what? I'm not being snotty, just really trying to figure out what you mean.

Gil stated that Morgan was just a skeleton.

I cannot find the link to that statement but this link explains how Bass thought at first the remains where a deer.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/morgan-harrington-found-remains-located-on-virginia-farm-photos/

 

[Soulmagent]

I complete a PMAT degree, so arithmetic is easy, but time consuming.

I knew it. I remembered it. Morgan was not simple a skeleton after 101 days. Given decomposition formulas and the fact that it was snowy and cold, there was no bug activity to worry about as she lay in the field. Even if the formula is wrong by a month, there was still tissue present for testing. Morgan was not completely skeletonized after three months in a field, and Laci Peterson was not completely skeletonized after four months at the bottom of the ocean.

There was enough tissue to test for rape. A DNA match was made between Morgan and a rape victim. That's a fact.

I hope your right ,and maybe it was stated she was a skeleton for investigative value.

I will point out ,today is Oct 17 and LE just told searchers they would need bug spray...

 

[Evie Ivy Over]

I understand the sentiment, but how does one deal with things such as the video, the rapes, the forensic evidence, the comments that HG could not even hardly walk when she left Tempo, for instance. How does one counter those issues?

For instance, how about the Fairfax rape. How does one counter that? Maybe he was unlucky in love with the college girls and he did not really rape them. And how dows one counter the DNA found with MH?

Just going to keep my response simple, because I think you'll get my drift without a ton of details...

In one of the videos, a man (WG) claims to have witnessed HG in physical distress, enough distress for him to feel a need to help her. If what he says is true, she was severely declining before she connected with JM and before she got to Tempo. Except for the Tuel's video, I don't think her physical state has been documented between Sal's and the departure from Tempo. Longo of LE stated that they don't know if she got into JM's car before he left the area; if they don't know, I don't either.

Don't know enough about the rapes to comment, other than to question whether he attempted to murder those women.

Forensic evidence details haven't been released, other than to say there is a link to MH--right now that's still wide open.

I wasn't aware that he has been officially connected with the Fairfax rape, and haven't read about the DNA found with MH. I think a lot of people are making these assumptions, but if that's not the case, please let me know.

There are just too many questions! Another thing that I worry about when putting total focus on one suspect is if the evidence eventually redeems that person, then someone else was able to hide themselves further into the woodwork. If there is proof of guilt, it will be a relief to eliminate a perpetrator from the streets of Charlottesville and to have the person responsible put away for a very long time.

I really hope they find that poor girl soon....

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I hope your right ,and maybe it was stated she was a skeleton for investigative value.

I will point out ,today is Oct 17 and LE just told searchers they would need bug spray...

Didn't the Harringtons say the suspect left DNA behind on Morgan's remains?

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Meanwhile, in the process of exhausting all possibilities of a person's involvement, one is as likely to harm further innocent victims as to save an innocent suspect from conviction.

Neither extreme is fair; not fair to the suspect in one case and certainly not fair to the general public in the other.

It may prove to be a very sad irony for many here to realize, had there been fewer people willing to give Matthew a general pass for so many years (such a big, sweetie!) when he had initially been under suspicion for various sexual assaults and rapes ~ there could have been, instead, many lives saved.

MOO

Totally ironic. If only someone had not fallen for the 'big sweetie act' years ago then maybe some of these rapes and the murders wouldn't have ever happened.

 

[Heroine]

Gil stated that Morgan was just a skeleton.

I cannot find the link to that statement but this link explains how Bass thought at first the remains where a deer.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/morgan-harrington-found-remains-located-on-virginia-farm-photos/

To Gil even if she had some tissue left she would probably still say skeleton. There probably wouldn't have been any other way to describe it, not to mention I'm sure it wasn't a pretty site. I do know not many posts back someone posted a link that said there was tissue remaining. I'll go look for it. It wasn't long ago.

 

[Evie Ivy Over]

Bandwagon? How often is it that a man is arrested with intent to defile a privileged young woman, and it just turns out that he's connected with the murder of another privileged young woman? How many women were hit in the head as they walked home from the grocery store? How often do we see a case on this forum where one man is suddenly connected with three, and possibly more raped, assaulted, and murdered women across States? Not often. That much I know to be true.

Somewhere along the line, I missed that JM has connected to the Fairfax rape. The whole idea of pinning every unsolved rape and murder on one guy before evidence is produced just seems a little....outlandish, maybe? I don't know, I guess it's just me......

 

[Evie Ivy Over]

To Gil even if she had some tissue left she would probably still say skeleton. There probably wouldn't have been any other way to describe it, not to mention I'm sure it wasn't a pretty site. I do know not many posts back someone posted a link that said there was tissue remaining. I'll go look for it. It wasn't long ago.

I think in one of Gil's writings, she described tissue being in the bracelet.