Jodi Arias; the sequence of events

[LaneGirl]

deleting duplicate post sorta.

 

[RealityMan]

My initial impression of TA in the shower with the look he had on his face was one of shock and fear. I do believe she had him on the floor in the shower with the gun pointed at him. It is just a sad picture to me and maybe I am just feeling badly that he was subsequently murdered by JA.

I had the same thought at first. But take a look at the next photo, which was taken 70 seconds later. TA is still resting his arms in a pose that very closely matches the position of his arms in the face shot photo. I don't think TA would remain in that particular, apparently relaxed pose for so long if JA was threatening him with a weapon at any point between the last two shower shots.

In fact, I don't think TA ever saw the weapon until possibly after he was struck with it. We know that 44 seconds after the last shower shot, JA took the ceiling shot and just 62 seconds after the ceiling shot, JA had inflicted all of the knife wounds (at least) and was with TA at the end of the hallway, as evidenced by the first bleeding shot.

 

[RealityMan]

We all know that regardless of whether the knife or gun came first, his throat was cut at this point in the struggle, but my main point of confusion is pinpointing the location where the throat-cutting occurred, based on the "foot/bleeding TA" photograph. Given the location and extent of the bleeding down his neck and onto his shoulder, I believe that this was taken immediately after the throat-cutting occurred, and that JA triggered the camera when she stepped up/back after doing it, and was looking down at TA to watch what would happen. The ME testified that TA would have been conscious for up to a few seconds afterwards, and that it was possible that he was raising his own arm and head in that photo in one last, futile effort to defend himself or escape. (To me, the angle of the arm is too low for JA to have been dragging him at this point). This photo was clearly taken with him lying on his back, parallel to the direction of the hallway, with JA standing behind his head, on tile. The huge blood puddle on the bedroom carpet at the end of the hall is where I've always assumed his throat was cut. However, I'm not sure how this jibes with that photo, which has TA on his back in the hallway -- can't tell if his feet are toward the bedroom or bathroom. Did she cut his throat in the bedroom with him on his knees facing toward the bed, grab his hair, pull him up and backward toward the bathroom headfirst (dragging him far enough that his feet were not folded beneath him but were now extended), and then hit the camera with her foot (with it taking a photo facing toward the bedroom)? (That might explain why the puddle was so blood-drenched as to soak through the carpet and padding as shown in some of the evidence photos, yet shows no "dragging path" away from it toward the hallway: if he was on his knees and she cut, then pulled his head and shoulders back and began to drag him backward, there would be no drag marks from the puddle -- and this could have been when he would have sustained the bruising to his legs.) OR did she cut his throat in the bedroom, flip him over onto his back and start dragging him toward the bathroom feet-first, and then run back around behind his head when he started to move, again snapping the photo toward the bathroom? Or did she simply drag him backwards (from the bedroom back into the hallway) before the cut to his throat, cut his throat right there in the hallway, in the position he appears in the picture, with that insular puddle of blood on the bedroom carpet coming from his initial efforts to escape through the bedroom? I'd love to hear some thoughts on this! I just can't tell precisely where the camera was in the hallway for that picture (or the one of the baseboard that follows).

I'm glad you brought this issue up. Trying to pinpoint the location and position of the camera in the last two photos as well as what is captured in the photos raises very interesting possibilities as to what was transpiring just 1 minute and 46 seconds after the last shower shot of TA.

I think there is general agreement that JA accidentally took the bathroom ceiling shot while she was still holding the camera in her right hand.

How then does the camera end up at the end of the hallway to take the next photo, just 62 seconds later, after JA has administered 27 stab wounds, including the fatal neck slash?

Some posters have said the camera was on the ground and upside down when these photos were taken. I've searched for testimony to that effect, but I haven't found it. Can somebody point me to testimony where the position of the camera in the last two photos is discussed? I also heard there was some testimony from detective Flores suggesting the bathroom ceiling photo was taking from approximately waist height, but I wasn't able to verify that testimony either.

I just don't see how it can be that the camera was on the ground when either of the last two photos are taken. In the first bleeding shot, the photo is at an angle. Wouldn't the photo be square to the floor if the camera was resting on the floor? Also, the photo just seems have been taken from too high off of the floor for the camera to have been resting on the floor when this photo was taken.

These two points are even more true for the last photo. The photo is not square to the floor and the camera seems to be even higher off of the floor.

To me, it looks like the camera is still in JA's right hand or at least dangling from her neck.

I just don't think it's possible that the camera ended up getting kicked down the hallway during the stabbing and then just happenned to be apparently oriented in the direction that JA was facing when she accidentally activated the button in the last two photos.

 

[Whisperer]

...For some reason, female perps prefer knives. I tend to think she stabbed him first. I think she shot him last because, in her sick mind, she thought he was suffering and still alive and did it to put him out of his misery.

 

[deedee21]

Remember the last photo of him looking into the camera? I see fear in his eyes.

 

[LambChop]

...For some reason, female perps prefer knives. I tend to think she stabbed him first. I think she shot him last because, in her sick mind, she thought he was suffering and still alive and did it to put him out of his misery.

I don't think his suffering was a consideration on Jodi's part. I believe she had to get on the road otherwise the roommates would be home and she would have been stuck in the house with him until they all went to bed that night. She was not worried about his misery or she would not have stabbed him 27 times. jmo

 

[pip]

Respectifully snipped and BBM - It's funny because I think it's plan old common sense that for her to overpower him the sure way would be with a gun. A knife is so iffy especially since he'd been working out so much. If one is going to murder someone why chance a knife fight with someone stronger? Idk

just thoughts.

A knife would be very iffy, considering she is left handed. It would have been quite awkward stabbing him with her left hand in the position he was seated in the shower. She would have to use her right hand, but she did end up with a cut on her left hand, so we know she used her left hand for the stabbings. I don't believe for a minute that she assaulted him out of the shower and was able to overcome him with a knife. Jodi made a point to let us to know she is ambidextrous, but come on. We all are. Who would attempt to stab someone to death with your weaker. less coordinated hand? I believe the first assault came while he was sitting in the shower.
And she used the GUN.

 

[pip]

Remember the last photo of him looking into the camera? I see fear in his eyes.

Me too. And it wasn't fear of a knife..he would have taken action knocked her on her butt, perhaps with a few cuts and nicks but he would have been fine. A gun on the other hand...

 

[LambChop]

A knife would be very iffy, considering she is left handed. It would have been quite awkward stabbing him with her left hand in the position he was seated in the shower. She would have to use her right hand, but she did end up with a cut on her left hand, so we know she used her left hand for the stabbings. I don't believe for a minute that she assaulted him out of the shower and was able to overcome him with a knife. Jodi made a point to let us to know she is ambidextrous, but come on. We all are. Who would attempt to stab someone to death with your weaker. less coordinated hand? I believe the first assault came while he was sitting in the shower.
And she used the GUN.

I also don't think she did not do anything while he was in the shower. From the picture with the look on his face it is possible she had the gun on him at the time and told him to get out of the shower. I do think, too, there was a struggle for the gun as TA had this happen to him before and I do not see him letting her shoot him without a struggle. She gets that look in her eyes and I think he knew it all too well.

It was strange while JM was speaking of he stabbing on cross, I believe, she made a fist with her "right hand" as if she were holding a knife in a stabbing motion. It was very brief but I could not believe it was her right hand. Could it be she cut her finger early on and had to switch to the right???? When people are remembering they do often do that with their hands without much thought. It was only a split second but she did do it. I will have to go back and see if I can find it. One day in court she was writing with her right hand or she could have been drawing.

What we can agree on is that she stabbed Travis more times than was necessary to bring him down and allow her to get away. Jodi just did not want to leave an alive Travis behind her when she left. jmo

 

[LambChop]

I'm glad you brought this issue up. Trying to pinpoint the location and position of the camera in the last two photos as well as what is captured in the photos raises very interesting possibilities as to what was transpiring just 1 minute and 46 seconds after the last shower shot of TA.

I think there is general agreement that JA accidentally took the bathroom ceiling shot while she was still holding the camera in her right hand.

How then does the camera end up at the end of the hallway to take the next photo, just 62 seconds later, after JA has administered 27 stab wounds, including the fatal neck slash?

Some posters have said the camera was on the ground and upside down when these photos were taken. I've searched for testimony to that effect, but I haven't found it. Can somebody point me to testimony where the position of the camera in the last two photos is discussed? I also heard there was some testimony from detective Flores suggesting the bathroom ceiling photo was taking from approximately waist height, but I wasn't able to verify that testimony either.

I just don't see how it can be that the camera was on the ground when either of the last two photos are taken. In the first bleeding shot, the photo is at an angle. Wouldn't the photo be square to the floor if the camera was resting on the floor? Also, the photo just seems have been taken from too high off of the floor for the camera to have been resting on the floor when this photo was taken.

These two points are even more true for the last photo. The photo is not square to the floor and the camera seems to be even higher off of the floor.

To me, it looks like the camera is still in JA's right hand or at least dangling from her neck.

I just don't think it's possible that the camera ended up getting kicked down the hallway during the stabbing and then just happenned to be apparently oriented in the direction that JA was facing when she accidentally activated the button in the last two photos.

One of our posters here recreated that shot where his foot looks so far away and I believe the camera was on the floor at the time. Looks just like the picture with Jodi's foot next to the camera lens. My guess is she kicked it and it took the picture. jmo

 

[pip]

I also don't think she did not do anything while he was in the shower. From the picture with the look on his face it is possible she had the gun on him at the time and told him to get out of the shower. I do think, too, there was a struggle for the gun as TA had this happen to him before and I do not see him letting her shoot him without a struggle. She gets that look in her eyes and I think he knew it all too well.

It was strange while JM was speaking of he stabbing on cross, I believe, she made a fist with her "right hand" as if she were holding a knife in a stabbing motion. It was very brief but I could not believe it was her right hand. Could it be she cut her finger early on and had to switch to the right???? When people are remembering they do often do that with their hands without much thought. It was only a split second but she did do it. I will have to go back and see if I can find it. One day in court she was writing with her right hand or she could have been drawing.

What we can agree on is that she stabbed Travis more times than was necessary to bring him down and allow her to get away. Jodi just did not want to leave an alive Travis behind her when she left. jmo

So who won the struggle for the gun in this scenario? Travis? Because she had to resort to the knife instead? So, Travis then has the gun so she runs for the knife and wins the gun/knife battle? Or did she win the struggle for the gun and went for the knife, gun in hand and stabbed him? Or did neither win the struggle for the gun and she went for the knife and Travis couldn't defend himself without ANY injuries yet? She would have never won the battle with a knife against a non-injured Travis. She tried pulling the "I'm ambidextrous" routine to deflect away from the cut on the left hand but JM pinned her down and made her say if she was primarily right or left handed, she said left. I'm ambidextrous too, we all are to varying degrees. But i'm a righty. She is overstating her ambi skills to throw off any righty or lefty related evidence they may throw at her, imo. She is so calculated. Oh, and she puts on a right handed writing show in court...how predictable.
Yes, overkill, agreed.

 

[LambChop]

So who won the struggle for the gun in this scenario? Travis? Because she had to resort to the knife instead? So, Travis then has the gun so she runs for the knife and wins the gun/knife battle? Or did she win the struggle for the gun and went for the knife, gun in hand and stabbed him? Or did neither win the struggle for the gun and she went for the knife and Travis couldn't defend himself without ANY injuries yet? She would have never won the battle with a knife against a non-injured Travis.
Yes, overkill, agreed.

She obviously did overpower him regardless of how she did it. The only reason I believe the ME is the lack of blood from a hemorrhage in Travis' brain. There should have been a lot if he were shot in the head. That makes the case for his belief the shot was not first. This would not have occurred for any other reason than his heart was not pumping enough blood to get to his head. No blood in his head would mean he'd have passed out. I do not think Jodi is afraid of anyone and we know from testimony she had some background in self defense and could protect herself. She was willing and able to take the chance to kill him without worry of her safety obviously confident she could pull it off. However, it appears things did not go according to plans.

I do believe whatever happened, happened as he stepped from the shower. I also believe she had the gun on him at the time and they struggled. He never would have shot her had he gotten the gun from her. I do not believe he ever abused her, hit her and would not do it then. Somehow it is possible she had the knife and stabbed him in the chest. Some of the cuts on the lower part of his body could have been from her being down and getting up and cutting him on her way to stab him in the chest. I do not know why there would be wounds in that area otherwise.

Tomorrow can not come soon enough. Too many possibilities as to what happened and most of them make sense. So anything was possible. jmo

 

[geevee]

I'm glad you brought this issue up. Trying to pinpoint the location and position of the camera in the last two photos as well as what is captured in the photos raises very interesting possibilities as to what was transpiring just 1 minute and 46 seconds after the last shower shot of TA.

I think there is general agreement that JA accidentally took the bathroom ceiling shot while she was still holding the camera in her right hand.

How then does the camera end up at the end of the hallway to take the next photo, just 62 seconds later, after JA has administered 27 stab wounds, including the fatal neck slash?

Some posters have said the camera was on the ground and upside down when these photos were taken. I've searched for testimony to that effect, but I haven't found it. Can somebody point me to testimony where the position of the camera in the last two photos is discussed? I also heard there was some testimony from detective Flores suggesting the bathroom ceiling photo was taking from approximately waist height, but I wasn't able to verify that testimony either.

I just don't see how it can be that the camera was on the ground when either of the last two photos are taken. In the first bleeding shot, the photo is at an angle. Wouldn't the photo be square to the floor if the camera was resting on the floor? Also, the photo just seems have been taken from too high off of the floor for the camera to have been resting on the floor when this photo was taken.

These two points are even more true for the last photo. The photo is not square to the floor and the camera seems to be even higher off of the floor.

To me, it looks like the camera is still in JA's right hand or at least dangling from her neck.

I just don't think it's possible that the camera ended up getting kicked down the hallway during the stabbing and then just happenned to be apparently oriented in the direction that JA was facing when she accidentally activated the button in the last two photos.

BBM
In Det. Flores report, of the pant leg/bleeding photo he says:

"This picture showed this incident occurred at the north end of the bathroom hall, where the largest amount of blood was found." Of the last picture he says:

"Once enhanced, it was clearly a picture of the bathroom hallway floor and baseboard".

http://wildabouttrial.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Detective-Flores-Investigation-Report.pdf

Last night I was thinking, about the camera in general and the time stamps in particular, and it occurred to me - this was a pretty new camera, and Det. Flores said Det. Melendez found undeleted pictures on the camera's internal memory, and all of the pics taken 6-4-08 were on the memory stick - why put a memory stick in a camera - unless you plan to take that memory stick with you before you leave? And how do we know that all of those pics hadn't been taken in another camera, with the date and time stamp changed to make it look as if they were shot on 6-4 and simply put that memory stick in the camera and dump it in the washer to make it appear as if those pics were taken on 6-4?

ETA: Oh wait, the ceiling, bleeding and dragging pics, hmmm...back to the drawing board on the camera. Shoot.

 

[pip]

She obviously did overpower him regardless of how she did it. The only reason I believe the ME is the lack of blood from a hemorrhage in Travis' brain. There should have been a lot if he were shot in the head. That makes the case for his belief the shot was not first. This would not have occurred for any other reason than his heart was not pumping enough blood to get to his head. No blood in his head would mean he'd have passed out. I do not think Jodi is afraid of anyone and we know from testimony she had some background in self defense and could protect herself. She was willing and able to take the chance to kill him without worry of her safety obviously confident she could pull it off. However, it appears things did not go according to plans.

I do believe whatever happened, happened as he stepped from the shower. I also believe she had the gun on him at the time and they struggled. He never would have shot her had he gotten the gun from her. I do not believe he ever abused her, hit her and would not do it then. Somehow it is possible she had the knife and stabbed him in the chest. Some of the cuts on the lower part of his body could have been from her being down and getting up and cutting him on her way to stab him in the chest. I do not know why there would be wounds in that area otherwise.

Tomorrow can not come soon enough. Too many possibilities as to what happened and most of them make sense. So anything was possible. jmo

You are leaving out the alternative conclusion. That he was NOT shot in the head, he was shot in the face. There was no blood in his brain nor cranium and all structures, including the dura, appeared intact (soft d/t decomposition...but not liquified) upon autopsy. ME found nothing, nada. There was plenty of blood, it came from his highly vascular sinus cavity via his nose and mouth and it is all over the sink.

 

[geevee]

One of our posters here recreated that shot where his foot looks so far away and I believe the camera was on the floor at the time. Looks just like the picture with Jodi's foot next to the camera lens. My guess is she kicked it and it took the picture. jmo

I believe that 'little foot' is a pool of blood on top of a white button on the duvet cover, what looks like light through the toes is light reflecting on the button. If you see where his shoulder is in that photo, it's impossible for his foot to be seen by the camera angle. Blood is pooling from his neck wound onto the duvet cover as she is rolling him on to it, check the angle of his head, shoulder and arm and you'll see they all line up with her rolling him to his right onto that cover. moo

 

[molly333]

You are leaving out the alternative conclusion. That he was NOT shot in the head, he was shot in the face. There was no blood in his brain nor cranium and all structures, including the dura, appeared intact (soft d/t decomposition...but not liquified) upon autopsy. ME found nothing, nada. There was plenty of blood, it came from his highly vascular sinus cavity via his nose and mouth and it is all over the sink.

The autopsy report says the dura was intact?

Then how did a bullet enter the brain?



du·ra

Noun

The tough outermost membrane enveloping the brain and spinal cord.

 

[pip]

The autopsy report says the dura was intact?

Then how did a bullet enter the brain?



du·ra

Noun

The tough outermost membrane enveloping the brain and spinal cord.

Yes... it does

 

[molly333]

Yes... it does

Here's the autopsy report:


http://cnninsession.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/redactedtravisautopsy.pdf


dura mater and faix cerebri are intact.

There is good preservation of cerebral symmetry with diffuse green-gray softening of parenchyma due to decomposition.

Multiple sections of autolyzed brain do not reveal the presence of grossly apparent trauma, foreign bodies, or previously existing natural disease.





dura mater definition

the outermost, toughest of the three meninges (membranes) of the brain and spinal cord.



No bullet penetrated this brain, IMO.

 

[molly333]

The ME state in court, under oath, that the bullet went through his frontal lobe. It stands as evidence. There was very little blood in the decomposition material that made up his frontal lobe. Dr. Horn testified you would expect to see that. Dr. Horn also said the bullet did not skip along in inside of his skull. It entered went through the frontal lobe and then out through the sinus cavity into his left cheek. Also I noticed in his report that other than previously noted there was no damage to....... That means when he said it was intact it was for the most part except where he previously noted damage. At least that is the way I read it.

I'm not an expert so I have to accept what he is saying as a possibility and since JM is not too concerned over the sequence I don't think it's a big issue in determining premeditation for the State. They have moved on with it. Just another piece of evidence presented and accepted as part of what the jury will consider. I do not think it will be an issue with the jury because the gunshot is nothing compared to the stabbing. It's the stabbing that will hold their attention when considering premeditation, not the gun shot.

Also I do not believe she knew nothing about guns. I remember my husband showing me his small handgun and he said it was not a gun you could bring someone down with, just hurt them. So, I think Jodi would have known that by taking that particular gun. With other guns in the house it would be strange she would pick that one. jmo

Tell me again what the dura mater is. Is this another magic bullet?

The bullet did not enter the brain.

Read the autopsy report.

IMO

 

[LambChop]

Here's the autopsy report:


http://cnninsession.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/redactedtravisautopsy.pdf


dura mater and faix cerebri are intact.

There is good preservation of cerebral symmetry with diffuse green-gray softening of parenchyma due to decomposition.

Multiple sections of autolyzed brain do not reveal the presence of grossly apparent trauma, foreign bodies, or previously existing natural disease.





dura mater definition

the outermost, toughest of the three meninges (membranes) of the brain and spinal cord.



No bullet penetrated this brain, IMO.

No. You have just misread this. Look under gunshot wound to the head. It is quite clear. The part you have listed is under Nervous System and lists the stabbing injuries to his skull which tells us the injury did not penetrate the skull and the cerebral area. The injuries he had to his head did not penetrate the dura mater in that area. If you read the gunshot section it is very clear the bullet enter the brain and the doctor report "reenter" the facial area.

You need to reread the report to get it accurate. jmo