Jodi Arias; the sequence of events

[Smelly Squirrel]

Actually the 'gun first' is supported by the physical evidence.

The ME said the brain was too decomposed to see any wound from the bullet, but even if it was it would have been minor due to the trajectory.

The brain wound was minor??? Is that a professional medical opinion? It's only a possibility not a likelihood. If a bullet goes through the frontal lobe, it is possible to survive and to keep functioning, but it is not likely. Gunfirst depends on a low probability event.

The bullet went through his sinus and ended up in his cheek at an angle consistent with Jodi standing over him as he sat in the shower.

Actually, even if he's sitting down she's not that much over him. Her outstretched arm would barely be above the gun entry site. It would not be the steeper angle of the final trajectory. It is possible for a bullet to change trajectories inside a body, but then that removes this argument altogether.

And if she's kneeling down then not at all.

.25's jam easily, especially when fired by inexperienced shooters (they tend to 'limp wrist' it which doesn't allow the next shell to cycle into the firing chamber)

Conjectured assumption. Gunfirst needs more of these type assumptions than knifefirst.

While he may have been stunned and flopping around after she shot him, she may have panicked and tried to shoot again. Unable to do so she went for her knife (perhaps in her purse) - meanwhile Travis is able to stumble to the sink area, aspirating and dripping blood from his nose and mouth.

Except there are hand swipe stains on the front of the sink, which would be expected from defensive wounds on the hands. Yet your theory is he wasn't stabbed yet. There is also no blood drops to the right side of the sink that would indicate a gunshot to the right side of the head. There are blood drops to the left and we know the left side of his head was wounded.

two issues:

lack of blood from the head wound

shell casing on top of the blood

first: blood from head wound, bleeding would be mostly internal

Mostly internal, according to what? There's a scalp wound that would be bleeding as a certainty.

and out nose and mouth plus she showered his dead body, possibly cleaning off most of blood on forehead and in the wound track post mortem

You mean she washed off the blood inside his head? Very, very doubtful.

As for the shell casing, it could have been knocked onto the blood pool by Jodi's cleanup or perhaps the pooling blood welled up underneath it kind of 'floating the boat' - the location of the casing is consistent with shooting in the shower (they eject back and to the right, exactly where the casing was found)

Those are both possible, but not as likely as the casing simply landing there right after the shot. Another lower probability explanation for gunfirst.

I think she thought she would kill him in the shower and it would be neat and easy. She didn't figure on the gun jamming or Travis being strong enough to put up such a fight.

Maybe but same could be said for knife first.

The "disorganized" crime scene is due solely to Travis's resilience and fighting back, not an indication she didn't plan this.

Agreed to that. Also likely due to her desire for brutality.

 

[DeAnnaMisrahi]

Maybe the flaw is in the religion and not in the people.

What I still can't figure out is the house situation. How many roomates did he have? Why was JA not concerned about them coming home or being at home? If she had planned this would she not have been nevrous that one of the housemates seeing her in the home? And about the dog? What happened to him? Were his roomates supposed to take care of the dog? It's hard for me to imagine my dog not whinning by a closed bedroom door, especially if there had been a commontion. So all his housemates are in the house for that many days and they don't smell anything? Can anyone fill in the gaps?

I don't have all the answers, but I've heard that the way it's set up is that there is Travis' side then the roommates side? Implying that they wouldn't always see each other. JA got there at around 4am, right? The roommate went to work early in the am. She wasn't in her car, so if he would have went out, it may not have struck him that anyone was there if she didn't park right in front of the house. The dog - JA put the gate up at the end of the stairs before she left so the dog couldn't get up there. The roommates assumed that TA had left for his trip, so they didn't think anything of him not being around. One of the roommates gf's took care of the dog, I believe. Fed it and stuff. They did think it was odd TA didn't set up arrangements for someone else to take care of the dog.

The roommate was expected back at 6, so she had about 15-20 mins to do whatever she needed and leave. I sort of feel like she left that camera there by accident in her rush to throw everything in the washer. She was probably hurriedly picking things up. I know I've ended up with things where they don't belong when in a hurry. lol. You know you've done it! Opened the freezer door and are all like, "Hey, how did the cordless phone get in here?!" :wink:

All of her other stuff was already packed in the car. So, really she just had to wash off, gather up the sheets/towels, etc and leave - after she put his body in the shower that is.

Wasn't there a little speck/drop of blood in the downstairs bathroom? Maybe she gave herself a once over before she left to make sure she actually wasn't covered in blood, the way she claimed she was.

 

[DeAnnaMisrahi]

BBM
That still mystifies me, she apparently checked TA's voice mails around 5:45, and as close as the roommate (Enrique?) can remember is he got home between 6:00 and 6:30. The duvet cover is found in the dryer and we see it pictured in the very last photo at 5:33, how does she get it into the washer with the sheet, pillow cases and whatever else was in that load, get it washed and put in dryer and then throw camera, towel, t shirt and socks in washer, all in a half hour?

Could the camera have originally been set for CA time and it the time stamps be an hour later than they actually were? That would make much more sense.

She washed AND dried something? I thought everything was found in the washer.

 

[molly333]

BBM
That still mystifies me, she apparently checked TA's voice mails around 5:45, and as close as the roommate (Enrique?) can remember is he got home between 6:00 and 6:30. The duvet cover is found in the dryer and we see it pictured in the very last photo at 5:33, how does she get it into the washer with the sheet, pillow cases and whatever else was in that load, get it washed and put in dryer and then throw camera, towel, t shirt and socks in washer, all in a half hour?

Could the camera have originally been set for CA time and it the time stamps be an hour later than they actually were? That would make much more sense.

2 people.


Actually I think she was there much later than anyone else thinks because I did a rough calculation of mileage between Mesa and where her phone first pinged and estimated how long it would take her to get to that location. And, I decided, roughly, she could have been in the house as long as 8pm.

Don't ask me to recreate that, though.

Remember she said the sun was in her eyes when she came out of the fog in her car? That's a low, setting sun. And she left Mesa driving West.

IMO

PS Wasn't it his camera?

 

[DeAnnaMisrahi]

BBM
That still mystifies me, she apparently checked TA's voice mails around 5:45, and as close as the roommate (Enrique?) can remember is he got home between 6:00 and 6:30. The duvet cover is found in the dryer and we see it pictured in the very last photo at 5:33, how does she get it into the washer with the sheet, pillow cases and whatever else was in that load, get it washed and put in dryer and then throw camera, towel, t shirt and socks in washer, all in a half hour?

Could the camera have originally been set for CA time and it the time stamps be an hour later than they actually were? That would make much more sense.

Oh, and if the roommate got home at 6:30, that gives her a lot more time than we are allotted. Most people are going with 6pm because, at minimum, she would have done all of her cleanup at that time. But, still. Going from 15 minutes to 45 minutes makes a difference.

 

[SMK]

BBM
That still mystifies me, she apparently checked TA's voice mails around 5:45, and as close as the roommate (Enrique?) can remember is he got home between 6:00 and 6:30. The duvet cover is found in the dryer and we see it pictured in the very last photo at 5:33, how does she get it into the washer with the sheet, pillow cases and whatever else was in that load, get it washed and put in dryer and then throw camera, towel, t shirt and socks in washer, all in a half hour?

Could the camera have originally been set for CA time and it the time stamps be an hour later than they actually were? That would make much more sense.

ah hah- you may be onto something there.....

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

You mean like Dr. RS? He's a professional.

No wait. It can't be a professional like him because you don't like him.

He's not a professional juror and the reason I don't like him because he's not impartial. The Constitution requires impartiality.

And, it couldn't be a professional like me because you don't like me, either. Unless I always voted the way you wanted me to vote, and then, I wouldn't lose my job.

I like you fine. :seeya:

 

[DeAnnaMisrahi]

@BW0000 :
Probably the biggest problem with this theory is:

• it would imply that Arias manipulated the timestamps on the photos, and somehow wanted them to be found by police and knew they could be accessed despite her having torn out the card and thrown the whole mess in the washing machine.
  
• Also, it would imply that she wanted all to think she was on the scene at the murder, despite her original story of having not seen Travis since April, and despite her original not there at all/ then masked intruders stories.
  
• Additionally, why the rental car, the cell phone off, if she in fact wanted the police to know she was there 6/4/08 having sex?

Does this ruin our theory???lease:

Too true! Which is why I am back to her leaving it by accident. lol. Either that, or she really honestly didn't know that the pictures could be retrieved. Just because she think she is brilliant, it doesn't mean that she actually is. Also, and, too, all of the pictures couldn't be recovered. So, in that sense she would be partially right.

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

I'll give it a shot.

He gets out of the shower after that last picture and head to the toilet. He's gotta pee. When he comes out of that room she hands him the camera so he can look at he pictures she took of him, and hits him with the knife.

I don't buy it right away. He would have just peed in the shower. :twocents:

 

[gitana1]

@wasnt_me:

So supposing this was a posing session and not a real shower:

TA was trying to extricate himself from JA (he had told Mimi he was not "temple worthy" which showed he must have discussed this with church elders and was "on probation" (?) - so why would he allow pictures which could be used to blackmail him at this point? (altho I guess it was his camera)

Just trying to figure out the logic of it all....

Oh, manipulation. jodi was good at that. "Oh come on, baby. I want to see how sexy you look in photos." "I feel gay doing this. I don't want to." "Come on, for me? You can delete the photos right afterward. Look, I'll take them on your camera instead of mine so you can be sure they will be deleted, ok?"

Interesting......At times I had wondered if she may have had an accomplice. What did you make of this, and what were they theorizing about it?

I think it's nonsense. They had a photo blow up of his eye with arrows pointing at either side of his pupil which purported to show two figures reflected. Conveniently standing exactly side by side. I saw nothing. Zero. Zilch.

Nancy Grace is a show that, while it does some good, also sensationalizes and likes to create tension and drama.

There is no evidence whatsoever of anyone else involved in this crime - no phone records, blood, fiber, DNA evidence, fingerprints, hairs, eyewitness accounts, photographic or computer records, statements by jodi or anyone else and no such theory has ever been promoted by anyone on either side of the case.

I don't think his expression is horrified at all. I see no expression. Horrified is eyes wide open and mouth open.

Me either. I think people may be projecting a bit? We know it's the last picture of Travis' face, alive. He is staring directly into the camera in the very place he would be murdered, seconds later. That is certainly haunting, disturbing.

But I see no fear, anxiety, horror, betrayal, anger or even sadness. The most I can possibly see is a bit of self conscious discomfort.

And for certain reasons, I am very, very, very good at reading people's signs for nervousness and fear. I can spot the hidden cues a mile away! So I'm positive on at least those emotions (the fear-based ones).

 

[Sleuth5]

This is what I mean, Sleuth5

LOL, Well, there's that all right. Yes, it is a problem. Others have pointed out that it makes little sense to think that someone would go out of their way to make themselves the obvious suspect of a first-degree murder -- but on the other hand, whether this theory can work or not, we do have to acknowledge that the defendant does not think like an 'average' person. I do believe that her narcissism has blinded her to the obvious problems with her many stories, including the latest "self-defense" fiction. Because she is so unable to recognize the obvious shortcomings in her contradictions, it would not surprise me to find that some of her thinking would strike us as entirely beyond belief were we to suddenly hear the "real" version of what she actually did.

In other words, when dealing with this kind of personality, logical thinking can be a significant handicap. :banghead:

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

Just a side note which is not exactly tied in with the idea of premeditation, but with self-defense. One of the most favorable areas to the defense - and thus dangerous to the prosecution - is the testimony that TA had all sorts of anal and oral sex with JA on the day of Jodi's baptism into the Mormon church.

TA was acting as a representative of the Church and as a spiritual advisor. Although Jodi was far from being a minor (she was 28) we all have seen the news stories: For example here in my state of New Jersey there was a female social worker age 33 arrested for raping her client, a 48 year old male drug addict - who actually seduced her : But because she represented the agency and abused her authority over him - he could not give consent in this situation and thus she became a felon.

Travis was also seen as a leader and motivational speaker who had formidable power of persuasion over anyone spiritually or psychologically needy.

Put this together with the audio heard by the jury of Jodi telling TA, "You made me feel like a goddess" and his immediate response of, "I want to zip-tie you to a tree and _____ you up the _____". I am in no way trying to disrespect Travis, but I DO feel there may be members of the jury who feel Arias may have become seriously mentally unstrung due to his morally dubious actions. It is a worry of some import for the prosecution, I would think.

There's something to this but imo it would apply to sentencing not guilt. It would not disprove all the planning or make it believable that Travis body slammed her over a dropped camera.

 

[katydid23]

Here's what I think happened (based on the photos)

Warning: I believe this was Manslaughter

1) Jodi was photographing Travis in the Shower, dropped the camera or did something that made him really angry (or perhaps he did something that made her really angry).

2) Jodi reacted and grabbed the knife that was in the bathroom (used to cut the tie-ups).

3) She began to stab him, they struggled (the defensive wounds come in here), the knife slipped.

4) She ran for the bedroom with a very angry-looking (but likely in-shock) Travis chasing after her (the massive amount of blood in the hallway happens here).

5) She grabbed the gun and pointed it at him (and I believe it was in place, not brought by Jodi - there are too many .25 calibre guns in Arizona to force the "stolen" theory).

6) He ran back to the bathroom to escape - and to retrieve the knife (again trailing large amounts of blood).

7) She chased him with the gun (leaving a hand print on the blood in the wall).

8) They faced off in the bathroom - with a rapid sequence of events - her wresting the knife, continuing to stab him while he reached for the gun.

9) After multiple stab wounds his strength depleted. He was unable to either reach or maintain a grip on the gun (he was wet and bloody after all).

10) She slit his throat, but he continued to move, so she grabbed the gun and shot him.

The camera's final shot was on an angle. I think that one of the photos went off as a result of the struggle - and the last one went off when Jodi (for whatever reason) picked up the camera as Travis was in the shower.

...but that, of course, is the way it looks to me (and conceeding that without more info - we'll likely never know what happened).

I do believe that she doesn't remember everything that happened, but that she's not being totally honest about how it started.

How would this be manslaughter? [ from your post above;]

"2) Jodi reacted and grabbed the knife that was in the bathroom (used to cut the tie-ups).

3) She began to stab him, they struggled (the defensive wounds come in here), the knife slipped. "

If jodi got upset and grabbed a knife and started to stab TA, that is murder, not manslaughter.

 

[SMK]

There's something to this but imo it would apply to sentencing not guilt. It would not disprove all the planning or make it believable that Travis body slammed her over a dropped camera.

I agree. However at fault TA was, JA is even more at fault in murdering him, and it was not in self-defense. More from insane passion and a desire for revenge.

 

[Angelina Frost]

How would this be manslaughter? [ from your post above;]

"2) Jodi reacted and grabbed the knife that was in the bathroom (used to cut the tie-ups).

3) She began to stab him, they struggled (the defensive wounds come in here), the knife slipped. "

If jodi got upset and grabbed a knife and started to stab TA, that is murder, not manslaughter.

BBM

It's not. No reasonable person could ever conclude as much. In order for that to happen, you'd have to take the unsubstantiated words of a documented liar with motive to lie. Amazing there is anyone who thinks the rope actually existed, rather than another joke to explain away the knife in the bathroom. Comedy at its finest.

 

[FrayedKnot]

They are random in that there is no guarantee how sensible or objective they will be. A juror's decision need not be respected simply because they're doing their duty. Maybe some system of professional juries is needed. Or maybe a requirement of passing a test on applied critical thinking.

And then maybe we can use that same type of screening method before we allow people to vote. Or have children. Or own property. :facepalm:

 

[geevee]

She washed AND dried something? I thought everything was found in the washer.

The duvet cover was in the dryer along with the flat sheet, some pillow cases and I think a few articles of clothing (sweat pants and a t-shirt?), in the washer were the camera, a towel, several pairs of socks, the tie dyed t-shirt and maybe another article of clothing, I can't recall.

But in the first pictures of the washer you can see the camera easily, for a while I thought it got in there unintentionally with sheets but they were in the dryer so I do think she meant to leave the camera (as it did belong to TA) and just thought deleting and rinsing in bleach would be enough to wreck it and the stick (if she knew it had the stick in there, I don't know if that's obvious or not).

 

[SMK]

Too true! Which is why I am back to her leaving it by accident. lol. Either that, or she really honestly didn't know that the pictures could be retrieved. Just because she think she is brilliant, it doesn't mean that she actually is. Also, and, too, all of the pictures couldn't be recovered. So, in that sense she would be partially right.

What you are saying is perfectly logical and reasonable.

However: :what:

There is still a nagging feeling that BW000 is right. And where there is a nagging feeling, there is often an uncoscious LOGIC at play..... and BW0000 and Sleuth 5, listen to this as well if you like.:seeya:

Something about BW0000 saying that the sex pics and the shower pics may not be from June 4 rings all too true. But it also rings true that JA could not have had the sheer genius to pull it off as I post above. Even her devious mind would not be quite so complicated.

And yet we all of us know that law enforcement investigators will draw conclusions and make the evidence fit. I would not think it too immoral if - KNOWING as they did that Arias was guilty as sin, and not wanting to see her walk - they jumped to the conclusion tha the pics were from that day ( he was, after all, found in the shower) and manipulated the date/time to that end.

JA is shocked as she knows they are from another day- yet she cannot deny the bloody print and hair.
EUREKA, THE THEORY STILL HOLDS!!!:great:

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

good points, also SMK brings up some good points too, the fact is if it were not for the photos and hand print, she would probably not be in jail. and the fact that she did slash his throat the way she did as SMK pointed out=======TA's throat was slit "ear to ear" which is also stated in the Book of Mormon as being the punishment for one who broke a covenant. (this checks out)
i imagine she would have tried to blame the Mormons. Thankfully she did leave all that evidence and will be able to pay for what she did

The Mormon blood oath and blood atonement are not in the Book of Mormon. There are many other Mormon scriptures besides that one text. (For example, jurors were wrong in asking about knowing the Law of Chastity from reading the Book of Mormon). Most of their strict rules and their unique rituals are not from the Book of Mormon. It's basically a bunch stories to teach moral lessons and to brand itself as in heritage with Christianity and Judaism.

The blood oath was a ritual borrowed from Masonry that was part of their temple ceremony where they swear to not reveal their secret rituals on pain of several bad repercussions, including cutting the throat from ear to ear (Travis has not revealed the rituals as far as we know). Blood atonement was about a person who had committed murder voluntarily choosing to have their own blood spilled to atone for the murder, since murder was a very bad sin. It did not require a throat cut. (Travis did not commit murder as far as we know.)

Modern LDS Mormons do not practice or adhere to either blood oath or atonement (some fundamentalists groups do).

Anyway, I don't buy at all that the throat cut had anything to do with Mormonism. Jodi killed him out of jealous rage, not because of religion. If a throat being cut from ear to ear must mean it had something to do with Mormonism, then OJ was a Mormon.

 

[geevee]

2 people.


Actually I think she was there much later than anyone else thinks because I did a rough calculation of mileage between Mesa and where her phone first pinged and estimated how long it would take her to get to that location. And, I decided, roughly, she could have been in the house as long as 8pm.

Don't ask me to recreate that, though.

Remember she said the sun was in her eyes when she came out of the fog in her car? That's a low, setting sun. And she left Mesa driving West.

IMO

PS Wasn't it his camera?

If she left just before 8:00 wouldn't roommate have been home and see/hear her? He did say he got home no later than 6:30, but after 6:00.

Yes, it was his camera, which is why I think she left it there, she didn't seem to take anything that wasn't hers.