Jodi Arias Trial Discussion #8 *may contain graphic and adult content*

[princesspjs]

I was thinking that there are so many possibilities as to why the casing ended up on top of that blood.

The casing is on the very edge of the pool of blood. If the blood had been there from the beginning of the murder and had even 15-30 minutes of drying out, it would clot and the top layer may have formed a 'skin' on the surface of the blood, allowing the casing to roll neatly onto the top without getting any fresh blood on it.

JMO

 

[BritsKate]

bbm

I am not sure of this either but I believe a motion was filed in conjunction with the letters (which were thrown out and found not to be TA's handwriting by experts) and also intimated at today in testimony by the detective (that she had again changed her story)

:twocents:

She never told this story to law enforcement but the story is documented through multiple court filings. To me it appears she told this version first to her attorneys because it doesn't really begin until mid-2009 iirc.

the only choice is 1st degree murder/felony murder - there are no lessor charges

That's what she's charged with but I thought, according to AZ law, the judge could include jury instructions of lesser offenses of murder? In some states I believe they're even inclusive. I just don't know enough though. I wish AZLawyer were around. However, I did manage to locate AZ jury instructions.

http://www.azbar.org/media/292098/2011_cumulative_supplement.pdf

 

[chakti]

So I been lurking for a day or so, very interesting stuff.

Just joined up, as requested by wenwe4. I had never even heard of this case until a couple of days ago when I followed a link from a news page. Holy Mackerel! Poor guy! And what a whack job of a bimbo.

I hope it's OK for a noob to jump right in. So here goes...

I'm no gun expert, but I've been around them a bit. A .25 is about the worst possible gun you could get for this, or almost any attempt to inflict real harm on a human being. She could not have planned this any worse if she had tried.

With that being said, I know a lot of the curiosity has surrounded the chain of events (which came first, gun or knife?). Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I saw somewhere that the bullet went in somewhere around his right eye and was lodged near his left cheek. This is a VERY weak projectile. When you consider that the 9mm that Gabby Giffords took to the forehead (I think) went all the way through and it was not shot as close as this .25 probably was.

My thinking is, since she is left-handed, she fired a shot with the gun against his head, maybe around his temple. The bullet penetrated somewhere around his eye, then traveled into his skull, but was deflected through his sinus cavity and didn't have the oomph to exit and stopped when it hit the inside of his left cheekbone.

The recoil and noise of the gun, as negligible as it was, considering the caliber, startled her and she dropped the gun, thinking she had done the deed. Travis got nothing more than a punch to the face/side of the head, which would have stunned and dazed him, but no way it was lethal. So now he falls/climbs out of the shower and raises himself up to the sink, looks in the mirror and by now has a spewer of a nosebleed, thus all the blood from his nose and mouth in the postmortem photos and all the blood around the sink.

She would have had no way of knowing whether the one shot would be lethal, so she probably had a knife of some kind (might have been a hunting knife that went missing in the burglary but nobody reported it; there were long guns in the cabinet, so grampa is probably a hunter). When he survived the gunshot, she had to go to plan B. Having seen all kinds of people on TV get stabbed and drop, she figured one stick would do him. Almost all lethal stabbings are of the multiple entry wound variety.

OK, this is just my opinion, as you folks say, so take it for what its worth.

Good to meet y'all and we'll see how this thing turns out.

There are many of us who agree with you, me for one, but there are many who think the ME could not be wrong. Many people have been shot in the head and not died from it.

 

[TigerBalm]

Ok, I thought it was bad enough reading the 48 Hours Picture Perfect, but watching the defendant 2 mins in and I already wanna punch her in the face. LOL :furious:

 

[txbluesman]

bbm: the ME testimony is in the timeline media thread. It was not fired up close and the entry wound, iirc, did not show much bleeding and the ME said he most likely was either 1) dead already or 2) he had lost so much from previous injury that he had no limited blood volume to bleed into the area of the entry wound (also was not fired from up close... at least two feet or more away iirc.. there was no stippling.)

I remember reading something about the ME saying he was not shot until later. I'm thinking, why shoot him then? That Columbian necktie must have put him down pretty quickly and I don't see her doing that until he was pretty incapacitated. And 2+ feet away? That makes it even more amazing given the relative inaccuracy of that handgun.

Pretty interesting to think that the gun was her last resort.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I saw the pics, but I still am not convinced the casing did not somehow get knocked into that blood. That particular pool of blood seems to correspond to the surface of the tile (uneven, natural-style adobe or something like that).

So the blood may have pooled into a "crater" in the tile, and then during the shabby cleanup, the casing may have dropped or rolled onto the pooled blood.

But if the casing were kicked or dropped into the blood as a result of the gunshot being the LAST in the sequence, wouldn't the casing still show spatter, or blood leaking into the casing?

I mean, just because the casing is lying on top of the blood, how do we know if it was ejected from the gun directly onto the pool (which could ALSO cause spatter and droplets on the topside) or whether it was placed there intentionally or accidentally, later, from where it was originally cast after the shot?

I guess I just think these are valid questions/scenarios and I don't understand the derision with which such queries are met.

IMO bottom line it doesn't matter. No one is prepared to state Travis didn't suffer enough if the bullet to his head came first. No one should care other than they enjoy puzzles. No one can say that shot dropped him and rendered him unconscious.

The state doesn't need to prove exactly where she stood, exactly how she held the knife. They need to prove she premeditated the murder, carried it out and Travis suffered horribly.

Did Jodi kill him? Yep
Did Jodi plan to kill him? Yep
Did Travis endure horrific pain? I'd bet my last dollar he did.

That's it. The whole ball of wax. Done.

I certainly hope the jury doesn't fall for the smoke and mirrors and the muddy water the defense is lamely trying to put forth.

I'm getting the distinct feeling jurors for some strange reason want to solve the crime themselves by making up ...unsupported by the evidence ...scenarios and discount all the overwhelming evidence put forth at trial.

Did the state prove the elements of the crime as required by law. That's their job. It's not , be a ME, detective, etc for the length of the trial.
It's scary, terrifying actually.


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[BritsKate]

The only reason it matters which wound occurred first is because DP is on the table. The aggravating factor the prosecution is using to seek the death penalty is "murder committed in an especially heinous, cruel or depraved manner" so the State has to prove that Travis was subjected to extreme cruelty.

It behooves the defense to prove the shot came first and Travis likely lost consciousness quickly to circumvent this in my opinion.

 

[Karmady]

There are many of us who agree with you, me for one, but there are many who think the ME could not be wrong. Many people have been shot in the head and not died from it.

My feeling is that if this was recognized as an issue before the ME's testimony, there would have been demonstrative evidence in the form of a trajectory diagram (minimum) showing how it is impossible for the bullet not to have passed through an area of the brain critical to motor function. Even that wouldn't be 100% conclusive since there always are aberrant exceptions, but it would have helped far more than just the ME's opinion while, at the same time, acknowledging the the trajectory through the brain was undeterminable.

On the other hand, it seems like the prosecution possibly didn't realize that this would be an issue in serious dispute so maybe didn't feel like they needed to uber prove it. jmo

 

[FrayedKnot]

I bet the defense tries to spin this as Lisa thought the Heavenly Father was protecting her physically and emotionally from abusive Travis. I suspect what she meant was that the Heavenly Father was protecting her physically and emotionally from the frightening stalker and the emotional fallout from having a stalker kill a loved one.

IDK, she did say that Travis helped her see the traits she did NOT want in a husband. I am guessing Lisa simply meant her hurt over his seeing Jodi whilst still dating her, Lisa.

Not brutal or abusive, just the kind of thing probably many of us ran into in guys we dated before we found "the one". And the charismatic guys with the most fun-loving personalities are usually the biggest heartbreakers. Not that they are bad guys, just flirts.

I think Lisa really dug Travis. She seemed kind of saddened, and a bit put off, by the whole thing. (Breakup, I mean)

Also, I really like Lisa. She seems like a class act. How could TA even look at JA after dating Lisa? JMO

 

[Linda7NJ]

My feeling is that if this was recognized as an issue before the ME's testimony, there would have been demonstrative evidence in the form of a trajectory diagram (minimum) showing how it is impossible for the bullet not to have passed through an area of the brain critical to motor function. Even that wouldn't be 100% conclusive since there always are aberrant exceptions, but it would have helped far more than just the ME's opinion while, at the same time, acknowledging the the trajectory through the brain was undeterminable.

On the other hand, it seems like the prosecution possibly didn't realize that this would be an issue in serious dispute so maybe didn't feel like they needed to uber prove it. jmo

I hope to God it's only an issue here and not for the jurors.


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[Bravo]

I'm just glad this Jury is not sequestered.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I'm just glad this Jury is not sequestered.

me too


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[norest4thewicked]

I remember reading something about the ME saying he was not shot until later. I'm thinking, why shoot him then? That Columbian necktie must have put him down pretty quickly and I don't see her doing that until he was pretty incapacitated. And 2+ feet away? That makes it even more amazing given the relative inaccuracy of that handgun.

Pretty interesting to think that the gun was her last resort.

I think that she shot him as an afterthought to make absolute sure he was dead, or to make it look like there was a second person. There isn't really a question about whether people have lived with head gunshots as we know that there have been. But, the ME explained everything to my satisfaction anyway in that by the time the gunshot came, there was no blood left to bleed because he had already almost all bled out.

But, yes, there are different trains of thought here.

 

[Sulamith]

Does anyone know if Nancy Grace's show pays for interviews? She seems to be on a 'witch hunt'. Just watched the interview with TA's friend, Zion Lovingier. She seemed to be creeped out that JA was into Wicca/Energies. JA is a murderer but I really did not see anything creepy/witchy about her MySpace page. Jodi was baptized Mormon (apparently the Mormon Missionaries' gift of discernment failed them this time)...just waiting for NG to dish on Mormonism..might lose a lot of her audience if she did that. I cannot stand her but my DH and I were wondering if she pays for interviews. JA killed TA, why all the sensationlism? The jury can't see her show.

http://www.hlntv.com/video/2013/01/16/jodi-arias-travis-alexander-murder-trial-witchcraft

 

[Hope4More]

My heart sank after hearing that jurors today asked questions about roommates alibis etc. Really?!!

I hope that prosecutors aren't falling into the Casey Anthony trial trap of assuming that jurors will convict based on the defendant's pathological lies and absence of empathy/moral compass/soul, on and on.

Jodi's lies and lies and lies, the color of cars, the alleged staging of a robbery of a 25 gun, the calls after Travis's death, the dying of her hair, the travels to another man's bed after killing Travis.... none of that, IMO, is proof of her guilt or even core to the case.

If I were the prosecutor, what I would hammer over and over and over again is the timeline provided by photos, and the significance of that timeline. Bottom line, and the key fact in the case, IMO, is that the murder must have been premeditated (however long in advance) because there wasn't enough time for Jodi to run for a gun (AND knife, for g--'s sake) outside the bathroom, whatever Travis did or did not do to her/say to her in the shower after the last photo she took of him alive.

 

[AZNanaPeg]

Dear God, I sincerely hope the jurors are not confused about WHO killed TA, or think that they are there to determine JA's guilt or innocence about the act of KILLING TA.

Man, I hope the prosecutors are paying attention to the questions the jurors ask. They need to emphasize in their closing argument that it is NOT in dispute who killed TA. I am getting worried we may have a few Pinellas-type jurors who want a videotape of the murder. I'm worried we have a few jurors who may be confused about what they are there to determine.

IMHO I think the jury is questioning the investigation to see if the police did a thorough job. Well, that's what I'm hoping anyway!

 

[FrayedKnot]

IMO bottom line it doesn't matter. No one is prepared to state Travis didn't suffer enough if the bullet to his head came first. No one should care other than they enjoy puzzles. No one can say that shot dropped him and rendered him unconscious.

The state doesn't need to prove exactly where she stood, exactly how she held the knife. They need to prove she premeditated the murder, carried it out and Travis suffered horribly.

Did Jodi kill him? Yep
Did Jodi plan to kill him? Yep
Did Travis endure horrific pain? I'd bet my last dollar he did.

That's it. The whole ball of wax. Done.

I certainly hope the jury doesn't fall for the smoke and mirrors and the muddy water the defense is lamely trying to put forth.

I'm getting the distinct feeling jurors for some strange reason want to solve the crime themselves by making up ...unsupported by the evidence ...scenarios and discount all the overwhelming evidence put forth at trial.

Did the state prove the elements of the crime as required by law. That's their job. It's not , be a ME, detective, etc for the length of the trial.
It's scary, terrifying actually.


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I just don't understand why you have to be so dismissive to those of us who are trying to piece together a sequence.

I think it is great that you are 100% in agreement with the ME.

I, however, still have some questions. And I don't think they are stupid or scary or inconsequential. And honestly, I think I haven't posed any alternative scenarios that are ridiculous.

I understand that you think this is "it, done, end of story, whole ball of wax." You keep saying that. That might be your take on it, and that's cool.

But I think it is still allowed that other posters like myself can pose questions and alternate sequences and offer different viewpoints. At least I was under that impression.

Mods, if this is not allowed, please delete. TIA.

 

[BritsKate]

I saw the pics, but I still am not convinced the casing did not somehow get knocked into that blood. That particular pool of blood seems to correspond to the surface of the tile (uneven, natural-style adobe or something like that).

So the blood may have pooled into a "crater" in the tile, and then during the shabby cleanup, the casing may have dropped or rolled onto the pooled blood.

But if the casing were kicked or dropped into the blood as a result of the gunshot being the LAST in the sequence, wouldn't the casing still show spatter, or blood leaking into the casing?

I mean, just because the casing is lying on top of the blood, how do we know if it was ejected from the gun directly onto the pool (which could ALSO cause spatter and droplets on the topside) or whether it was placed there intentionally or accidentally, later, from where it was originally cast after the shot?

I guess I just think these are valid questions/scenarios and I don't understand the derision with which such queries are met.

I didn't mean to seem derisive, Frayed, so my apologies. To my mind I have a very clear picture of what occurred that day based in part on ME's testimony, blood analysis, fibers recovered, and even Jodi's accounts. The evidence fits what's in my head but I didn't/don't mean to be rude to those who believe otherwise.

I just can't see the otherwise myself.

 

[norest4thewicked]

The only reason it matters which wound occurred first is because DP is on the table. The aggravating factor the prosecution is using to seek the death penalty is "murder committed in an especially heinous, cruel or depraved manner" so the State has to prove that Travis was subjected to extreme cruelty.

It behooves the defense to prove the shot came first and Travis likely lost consciousness quickly to circumvent this in my opinion.

Yeah...that makes sense - <modsnip>. Travis was shot first and it made him unconscious. Did she drag him around the entire 2 rooms to make absolute sure that his blood would be everywhere? :banghead:

 

[Vhead]

I think I just solved the puzzle. I was listening to her interrogation and the cop said we have u taking pics of him in the shower .. She said "Travis would never allow me to take pics of him in the shower" if you see the string of pics I think she was taking pics unknown to him in the shower... Then he saw her and maybe had words like I thought u left or kick rocks .. And she went nuts.

The look on his face of total shock w/ flash on (last pic alive) says a lot to me. I dunno. My theory doesn't solve it all

Why on earth would she be packing heat and sleuthing around tri state area had she not had plans?

The timing is so weird.. Where the pics are concerned. Love making, shower, murder

Evil b--word!


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