John Ramsey Fabricated Open Basement Window "Evidence"

[kanzz]

singularity,
Me neither. This is why it might really be PDI or JDI, i.e. the latter a hoary olde chestnut: incest?

Remember all those tales about Patsy's cancer, and LHP's alleged colorful account regarding PR and JR's love life, with Patsy not at all enamored?

Having listened to Kolar more than once I think he is inventing stuff for his theory.

Otherwise he would have to tell the truth and the terms and conditions of his BPD employment do not allow this.

The Breakfast Bar is relativly tidy and clean, I doubt anything other than a pineapple snack happened there.

Kolar goes with the basement, as per the staging, what else can he say?

Certainly not that Burke Ramsey and JonBenet were sharing a bed in her bedroom, and that he left his pajama bottoms behind, after assaulting her?

That does not mesh with the wine cellar crime scene does it?

bbm

Under the assumption of "inventing stuff to fit a theory", then I would say that nearly every single person who has posited any theory in this case has "invented stuff". Or at least has some amount of confirmation bias to one degree or another. Theorizing something about the breakfast room in which there was a bowl of pineapple (pineapple which was in fact found in JB's gut) isn't much of a stretch.

Steve Thomas was focused on PR from day one. He never considered BR as a suspect. And yet his theory invents stuff not even based in fact.

But here's the big difference, imo - Kolar is the detective who has most recently worked on this case and then offered a theory. He has more current knowledge about what's in those files than does any other LEO who has written about the case.

For sure, discerning members will note Kolar has a book for sale along with a theory, of which only one requires money.

From FFJ:
http://www.forumsforjustice.org/for...y-Kidnapped-JonBenet-quot&p=193878#post193878
Just an FYI, Tricia has told us:
“This man took his retirement money out and published the book at great personal risk.”
“Kolar used his own money to publish this book, to hire lawyers, to do everything. He will not make his money back.
Plus there is the very real possibility he will be sued which will cost him a lot. Although you can't win a lawsuit when someone is telling the truth it doesn't mean it won't stop a lawsuit. Just can't win it.”
If he manages to recoup the money he has spent on the project, further proceeds, if there are any, will go to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.

 

[kanzz]

There has to be a trigger for a flare up. We have no reason to believe a flare up occurred in the basement.

We have pineapple on the first floor, a n64 on the second, bed wetting on the second floor, wet clothes in the sink on the second floor, and unorganized/out of place diapers/pull ups upstairs as well. Take you pick for a trigger point.

We do not have any known possible trigger points in the basement or attic master upstairs though.

Sent from my SM-G360T1 using Tapatalk

bbm

Why not the basement? There's no reason to rule out the basement.

JB didn't wet the bed that night, so that seems irrelevant, imo.
The clothes next to the sink were rumored by someone to have been damp, but that hasn't been proven.

How is the N64 a know possible trigger point? I've seen nothing mentioned about a history of it being such. Same for "unorganized/out of place diapers/pull ups".

But if you're going to list "known possible trigger points", I would list JB herself. Not for PR, but JB was the primary source of BR's frustration.

 

[UKGuy]

bbm

Under the assumption of "inventing stuff to fit a theory", then I would say that nearly every single person who has posited any theory in this case has "invented stuff". Or at least has some amount of confirmation bias to one degree or another. Theorizing something about the breakfast room in which there was a bowl of pineapple (pineapple which was in fact found in JB's gut) isn't much of a stretch.

Steve Thomas was focused on PR from day one. He never considered BR as a suspect. And yet his theory invents stuff not even based in fact.

But here's the big difference, imo - Kolar is the detective who has most recently worked on this case and then offered a theory. He has more current knowledge about what's in those files than does any other LEO who has written about the case.

From FFJ:
http://www.forumsforjustice.org/for...y-Kidnapped-JonBenet-quot&p=193878#post193878
Just an FYI, Tricia has told us:
“This man took his retirement money out and published the book at great personal risk.”
“Kolar used his own money to publish this book, to hire lawyers, to do everything. He will not make his money back.
Plus there is the very real possibility he will be sued which will cost him a lot. Although you can't win a lawsuit when someone is telling the truth it doesn't mean it won't stop a lawsuit. Just can't win it.”
If he manages to recoup the money he has spent on the project, further proceeds, if there are any, will go to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.

kanzz,
Kolar wil not be sued. He knows where the red lines are, and he never crosses them, that's why LW has never knocked on his door.

I like Kolar, his book, his media appearances, etc. On the money thing I am trying to point something out, something that Kolar himself is always referring to, e.g. his legal position.

i.e. he cannot tell us the truth. Same with Steve Thomas, consider Holly Smith, do you know about her? You should, yet she has been airbrushed from the Ramsey version of events, her autobiography was redacted to remove the Ramsey stuff, get the idea?

So Kolar is no Let The Information Be Free protagonist, he knows there is stuff he cannot tell us about. This is why in his book he alludes to BR's behavioral issues, the parent's book purchases, etc.

Kolar is saying BDI All with the parents staging the abduction scenario. With Kolar constrained by his legal contracts, I reckon Kolar is telling us as much as his legal position allows, e.g. its really BDI?

Yet when Kolar suggests BR relocated JonBenet to the basement, I roll my eyes, and think he has to say that.

He cannot tell us the truth, as per Patsy, JonBenet and Burke shared a bed, LHP tells us they played doctor, what else do we need to know, other than Kolar's medical book list, intended to suggest BR has a fetish?

.

 

[UKGuy]

bbm

Why not the basement? There's no reason to rule out the basement.

JB didn't wet the bed that night, so that seems irrelevant, imo.
The clothes next to the sink were rumored by someone to have been damp, but that hasn't been proven.

How is the N64 a know possible trigger point? I've seen nothing mentioned about a history of it being such. Same for "unorganized/out of place diapers/pull ups".

But if you're going to list "known possible trigger points", I would list JB herself. Not for PR, but JB was the primary source of BR's frustration.

kanzz,
Yup, Yup, Yippee. BR was likely telling JonBenet what to do? He was in charge, that is until he whacked her on the head. Blunt Force Trauma.

Years later BR describes JonBenet as flaunting herself, why should that bother him?

Should he not be complementing JonBenet on her moves, talent and ability to attract people?

.

 

[kanzz]

kanzz,
Kolar wil not be sued. He knows where the red lines are, and he never crosses them, that's why LW has never knocked on his door.

I like Kolar, his book, his media appearances, etc. On the money thing I am trying to point something out, something that Kolar himself is always referring to, e.g. his legal position.

i.e. he cannot tell us the truth. Same with Steve Thomas, consider Holly Smith, do you know about her? You should, yet she has been airbrushed from the Ramsey version of events, her autobiography was redacted to remove the Ramsey stuff, get the idea?

So Kolar is no Let The Information Be Free protagonist, he knows there is stuff he cannot tell us about. This is why in his book he alludes to BR's behavioral issues, the parent's book purchases, etc.

Kolar is saying BDI All with the parents staging the abduction scenario. With Kolar constrained by his legal contracts, I reckon Kolar is telling us as much as his legal position allows, e.g. its really BDI?

Yet when Kolar suggests BR relocated JonBenet to the basement, I roll my eyes, and think he has to say that.

He cannot tell us the truth, as per Patsy, JonBenet and Burke shared a bed, LHP tells us they played doctor, what else do we need to know, other than Kolar's medical book list, intended to suggest BR has a fetish?

.

Ah. I see. I'm not convinced the head strike took place on the first floor. I get what you're saying about Kolar not being able to tell all, and I agree. He just builds a framework for us. Unfortunately, he has been named in the BR lawsuit against CBS, and BR is saying that program was based on the book. I don't think we'll be seeing the release of the new FF any time soon.

I have a tendency to agree with Kolar when he says, "An evaluation of the statement made by John, which I considered to be a spontaneous utterance that formed criminal culpability, suggests that he was not aware that her body was downstairs until he went roaming after the 1000 am ransom failed to come." So, staging not by both parents, but by PR only.

 

[UKGuy]

Ah. I see. I'm not convinced the head strike took place on the first floor. I get what you're saying about Kolar not being able to tell all, and I agree. He just builds a framework for us. Unfortunately, he has been named in the BR lawsuit against CBS, and BR is saying that program was based on the book. I don't think we'll be seeing the release of the new FF any time soon.

I have a tendency to agree with Kolar when he says, "An evaluation of the statement made by John, which I considered to be a spontaneous utterance that formed criminal culpability, suggests that he was not aware that her body was downstairs until he went roaming after the 1000 am ransom failed to come." So, staging not by both parents, but by PR only.

kanzz,

BBM: Another DocG theorist. Invoking telepathy for JR does not work. Special cases are a sign a theory is dead in the water.

JR as an innocent has to know either PR or BR has killed JonBenet. For him its simple, telepathy is not required. he would know in advance to expect a body, a real kidnapping would not allow such an outcome, get it?

The case is BDI with the parents stagng it as IDI.

 

[Cottonstar]

Ah. I see. I'm not convinced the head strike took place on the first floor. I get what you're saying about Kolar not being able to tell all, and I agree. He just builds a framework for us. Unfortunately, he has been named in the BR lawsuit against CBS, and BR is saying that program was based on the book. I don't think we'll be seeing the release of the new FF any time soon.

I have a tendency to agree with Kolar when he says, "An evaluation of the statement made by John, which I considered to be a spontaneous utterance that formed criminal culpability, suggests that he was not aware that her body was downstairs until he went roaming after the 1000 am ransom failed to come." So, staging not by both parents, but by PR only.

Anyone who thinks JR was not involved with the staging from the get-go needs to borrow a quote from Patsy Ramsey:"Go back to the damn drawing board".


cottonstar

 

[andreww]

Anyone who thinks JR was not involved with the staging from the get-go needs to borrow a quote from Patsy Ramsey:"Go back to the damn drawing board".


cottonstar

What do you base that on? What piece of evidence (prior to 10:00 AM) definitively proves John was involved?

 

[andreww]

JR as an innocent has to know either PR or BR has killed JonBenet.

I beg to differ. John as an innocent would think it was a kidnapping. He may have had his suspicions but in all likelihood those suspicions were not confirmed until after 10:00 AM.

 

[Cottonstar]

What do you base that on? What piece of evidence (prior to 10:00 AM) definitively proves John was involved?

1. The Ransom note. You were fooled by the contents of the ransom note, if you think it was Patsy who dictated the disparaging comments towards John in the note because she held some sort of contempt for John. If you look at the totality of evidence it clearly paints a narrative and the verbage in the note is setting LE up to focus their investigation to "an inside job". John and Patsy both dictated the note to set this up. This is why the ransom amount is $118,000. This is why John says to Linda Arndt "It must of been an inside job" as he laid his daughter down after carrying her upstairs. This is why they first fingered LHP and Jeff Merrick.

2. There is proof John gave LE Patsy's notepad on purpose. It's called Plausible Deniability. Psychologically speaking it goes something a little like this:

"I'd have to be pretty stupid to write a book about killing and then kill him the way I described in my book. I'd be announcing myself as the killer. I'm not stupid".

Sharon Stone's character in Basic Instinct

3. The 911 call. JR saying to Burke "We're not speaking to you". He clearly shows contempt towards Burke. Why would he have any ill towards Burke if he had no clue what was going on?

4. If you believe that somehow JR was asleep the whole night while his wife was up doing the whole murder and staging then you truly must go back to the drawing board.

There is plenty more.


cottonstar

 

[Userid]

The fibers from JR's shirt for starters indicate he was involved before 10 am -- it's that simple.

 

[Cottonstar]

What do you base that on? What piece of evidence (prior to 10:00 AM) definitively proves John was involved?

Plausible Deniability

From Juror 13

"The Ransom Note is a big indicator of this, and the direct finger pointing in the note to "Mr. Ramsey" to "John" on three occasions, to the very specific Ransom amount, to John's "southern sense" is an explicit attempt to communicate one thing.

This one thing is the precise statement John makes, the first effective quote we get in seven hours of skulduggery. When Arndt checks the rigid cadaver with blue lips and the whiff of death for a pulse, when she confirms to John crouched opposite her on the living room floor that JonBenet is dead, John says what we think he has been gagging to say all morning:

"It has to be an inside job."

If we are confused and mystified by not just the contents of the Ransom Note but the material of the note itself, if we can't understand why Patsy would write it using her own kitchen pad with a pen in the kitchen (and not dispose of either of these), we're puzzled why John simply handed samples of his and Patsy's writing over to police when requested at 09:30 that morning, when Patsy's own paintbrush is used as a garrotte, none of it makes sense.....

UNLESS THE STAGING IS INTENDED TO REINFORCE THE IDEA OF AN INSIDE JOB."


cottonstar

 

[kanzz]

Anyone who thinks JR was not involved with the staging from the get-go needs to borrow a quote from Patsy Ramsey:"Go back to the damn drawing board".


cottonstar

bbm

For people to post "Anyone who thinks" followed by PR's words, "Go back to the damn drawing board" - in an effort to belittle and disparage the opinion of other people -
means that we won't have much of a discussion here on WS, it will all be just the theory of one particular group, cheering one another on.

We are all here to discuss this case for the sake of JBR. Nobody here believes the IDI theory. We are all free to discuss our individual theories. To belittle or disparage someone who is on the same team is uncalled for.

I think JR was probably unaware of anything until PR handed him that phony RN, but that he recognized her handwriting and then he started trying to piece things together. jmo

 

[Cottonstar]

bbm

For people to post "Anyone who thinks" followed by PR's words, "Go back to the damn drawing board" - in an effort to belittle and disparage the opinion of other people -
means that we won't have much of a discussion here on WS, it will all be just the theory of one particular group, cheering one another on.

We are all here to discuss this case for the sake of JBR. Nobody here believes the IDI theory. We are all free to discuss our individual theories. To belittle or disparage someone who is on the same team is uncalled for.

I think JR was probably unaware of anything until PR handed him that phony RN, but that he recognized her handwriting and then he started trying to piece things together. jmo

I agree, and I apologize. JR handing over Patsy's pad on purpose to LE proves he was in on it from the get-go.


cottonstar

 

[andreww]

I agree, and I apologize. JR handing over Patsy's pad on purpose to LE proves he was in on it from the get-go.


cottonstar

How does that prove anything? If John only figured out hat happened at 10:00 that morning, he has done everything in his power since to protect her. If anything, the fact that he handed over Patsy's pad shows that he likely had no clue that the note was written on it.

 

[andreww]

Plausible Deniability

From Juror 13

"The Ransom Note is a big indicator of this, and the direct finger pointing in the note to "Mr. Ramsey" to "John" on three occasions, to the very specific Ransom amount, to John's "southern sense" is an explicit attempt to communicate one thing.

This one thing is the precise statement John makes, the first effective quote we get in seven hours of skulduggery. When Arndt checks the rigid cadaver with blue lips and the whiff of death for a pulse, when she confirms to John crouched opposite her on the living room floor that JonBenet is dead, John says what we think he has been gagging to say all morning:

"It has to be an inside job."

If we are confused and mystified by not just the contents of the Ransom Note but the material of the note itself, if we can't understand why Patsy would write it using her own kitchen pad with a pen in the kitchen (and not dispose of either of these), we're puzzled why John simply handed samples of his and Patsy's writing over to police when requested at 09:30 that morning, when Patsy's own paintbrush is used as a garrotte, none of it makes sense.....

UNLESS THE STAGING IS INTENDED TO REINFORCE THE IDEA OF AN INSIDE JOB."


cottonstar

Again, all this says to me is that John had no clue as to what was going on.

 

[andreww]

1. The Ransom note. You were fooled by the contents of the ransom note, if you think it was Patsy who dictated the disparaging comments towards John in the note because she held some sort of contempt for John. If you look at the totality of evidence it clearly paints a narrative and the verbage in the note is setting LE up to focus their investigation to "an inside job". John and Patsy both dictated the note to set this up. This is why the ransom amount is $118,000. This is why John says to Linda Arndt "It must of been an inside job" as he laid his daughter down after carrying her upstairs. This is why they first fingered LHP and Jeff Merrick.
cottonstar

Or Patsy wrote the note doing her best to make it look like someone kidnapped JB because of John's business.

2. There is proof John gave LE Patsy's notepad on purpose. It's called Plausible Deniability. Psychologically speaking it goes something a little like this:

"I'd have to be pretty stupid to write a book about killing and then kill him the way I described in my book. I'd be announcing myself as the killer. I'm not stupid".

Sharon Stone's character in Basic Instinct

That is not proof, that is your opinion.

3. The 911 call. JR saying to Burke "We're not speaking to you". He clearly shows contempt towards Burke. Why would he have any ill towards Burke if he had no clue what was going on?

A recording where most people can't even agree on what was said? And yet you can read his inflection and tone? Good for you.

4. If you believe that somehow JR was asleep the whole night while his wife was up doing the whole murder and staging then you truly must go back to the drawing board.

There is plenty more.

There isn't plenty more. In fact there is plenty to suggest that John had no idea what was happening. Arndt even talked about how John's attitude had changed after he reappeared.

 

[Userid]

How does that prove anything? If John only figured out hat happened at 10:00 that morning, he has done everything in his power since to protect her. If anything, the fact that he handed over Patsy's pad shows that he likely had no clue that the note was written on it.

I agree with this in principle, but for different reasoning.

Quite honestly, I simply believe that JR panicked when police asked him to grab a writing sample. Wasn't he asked to do so right by where the pads where kept? If he would have not grabbed those pads, it would have looked incredibly suspicious. He must have felt that police had already seen the pads sitting there, and didn't want to appear any more suspicious by not handing them over.

I completely disagree that JR didn't know anything beforehand. I will point to the fibers of his shirt that were found once more. Not to mention his suspicious behavior.

If he really didn't know anything until he found JBR, what would keep him from simply turning over PR -- if not that very day, eventually? "Keeping the family intact" doesn't really work as an excuse here, considering he could have kept BR. Are you supposing his love was so strong for PR that he wouldn't flip on her even after she killed one of his own children?

 

[andreww]

The fibers from JR's shirt for starters indicate he was involved before 10 am -- it's that simple.

That info is compelling for sure, but how accurate is it? Apparently the black fibres matched one of two black shirts that John supplied. Was it the shirt he wore that day? How many fibres? And, most importantly, given that Patsy never changed out of her party clothes, could a transfer of John's fibres have occurred? To me the fibre evidence is very telling, if it is accurate. I feel that since that argument is rarely made, that the fibre evidence isn't as rock solid as we may think.

But certainly a good point. I have never said John wasn't involved, only that it is possible that he wasn't involved. Until I hear a fibre expert say "we are 100% positive that those black fibres came from the shirt John was wearing that night", I will continue to leave that door open.

As far as John denying Burke was awake, this may have just been the act of a protective parent not wanting to involve his child in something that was potentially upsetting. John may have asked Burke if he saw or had heard or seen anything. He may simply have taken his word for it and told police as much. Or, by that point he was questioning the ransom note and the possible involvement of his wife, or possibly from experience with Burke's behavioural problems, he may have wondered about him as well.

 

[Userid]

^ Fair enough. Fiber evidence, in and of itself, isn't "the end all be all," particularly in court. It's tough to say just how strong the evidence is; I mean, the fibers on the duct tape from PR's shirt are incredibly damning -- but do we hear about that often (or more often than JR's fibers)? Tough to say.