Judge's Order re: OP's Mental Health Eval Thread #42

[PrimeSuspect]

"I sat over Reeva and I cried. I don't how long I was there for," he testified while his voice broke.
"She wasn't breathing," he said shaking with loud sobs that prompted an early adjournment for the day.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-shooting-Reeva-Steenkamp-what-we-learnt.html

He said various things. She was slumped over, but still alive. She was struggling to breathe. She wasn't breathing.

I wonder what that is all about?

I wish Gerrie Nel had him on the ropes about that, either Reeva was alive or was not. This leads me to think she was alive for a few seconds once OP got to her and then he wasted time until she died, and that's why he's mixing things up, because he left her and came back and then she was definitely dead. :twocents:

 

[Fuskier]

What about intending to kill the intruder though?

http://guardianlv.com/2014/05/murde...rius-shrein-dewani-and-other-accused-killers/

"Motive and intent are NOT the same thing" David Dadic, Johannesburg attorney.

"For Pistorius to be convicted of murder, the state needs to prove he intended to kill Steenkamp. Dadic explains that intent is essentially a “wrongful state of mind” that can be attached to the crime. This is not the same as motive, which, he says “relates to reasons or factors” that induce a person to commit a wrongful act"...

 

[Fuskier]

http://www.sabc.co.za/news/a/e60d46...waits-Pistoriuss-arrival-in-hospital-20140526
Media awaits Pistorius's arrival in hospital
Monday 26 May 2014 08:30 by Liela Magnus

"Several media houses have started gathering at the Weskoppes Psychiatric hospital in Pretoria west, ahead of the arrival of Oscar Pistorius"..."Journalists, photographers, camera crews and the international media are braving the winter cold, waiting for Pistorius to arrive. A steady flow of busses and cars are entering the premises"...

 

[Fuskier]

http://www.jacarandafm.com/post/pistorius-arrives-at-weskoppies/
Pistorius arrives at Weskoppies 12 minutes ago
26 May 2014 at 09:29 by Sapa - Murder-accused paralympian Oscar Pistorius arrived at the Weskoppies Psychiatric Hospital in Pretoria before 9am on Monday, SABC reported.Security was tight at the facility and a huge media contingent had gathered there.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

http://guardianlv.com/2014/05/murde...rius-shrein-dewani-and-other-accused-killers/

"Motive and intent are NOT the same thing" David Dadic, Johannesburg attorney.

"For Pistorius to be convicted of murder, the state needs to prove he intended to kill Steenkamp. Dadic explains that intent is essentially a “wrongful state of mind” that can be attached to the crime. This is not the same as motive, which, he says “relates to reasons or factors” that induce a person to commit a wrongful act"...

If the state can prove murder which imo they can, would 'rage' be a motive, or would they have to prove what he was in a rage about eg: jealousy over ex bf text or career choices?

http://www.sabc.co.za/news/a/e60d46...waits-Pistoriuss-arrival-in-hospital-20140526
Media awaits Pistorius's arrival in hospital
Monday 26 May 2014 08:30 by Liela Magnus

"Several media houses have started gathering at the Weskoppes Psychiatric hospital in Pretoria west, ahead of the arrival of Oscar Pistorius"..."Journalists, photographers, camera crews and the international media are braving the winter cold, waiting for Pistorius to arrive. A steady flow of busses and cars are entering the premises"...

Yay, it's finally begun.

 

[Fuskier]

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/anxious-oscar-man-behind-mask-30302183.html

Anxious Oscar, man behind mask?
Who is the real Oscar Pistorius – narcissist or chronic anxiety sufferer, asks psychotherapist Gayle Williamson by GAYLE WILLIAMSON – PUBLISHED 25 MAY 2014 02:30 AM

"...So yes, I have some sympathy with Oscar, but I don't think any of this mitigates his actions – and as Dr Vorster opined, GAD would not have affected his ability to distinguish between right and wrong"...

 

[Fuskier]

http://www.news1130.com/2014/05/26/...tal-to-begin-court-ordered-mental-evaluation/

Oscar Pistorius arrives at psychiatric hospital to begin court-ordered mental evaluation
The Associated Press May 26, 2014 12:45 am

"PRETORIA, South Africa – Oscar Pistorius has arrived at a psychiatric hospital in South Africa to begin the period of mental evaluation he was ordered to undergo by the judge at his murder trial"...

"Pistorius was in the passenger seat of a black sedan and speaking on a cellphone when he arrived Monday morning at Weskoppies Psychiatric Hospital in Pretoria. He drove into the facility behind a police van"...

 

[Suthrnqt]

http://www.news1130.com/2014/05/26/...tal-to-begin-court-ordered-mental-evaluation/

Oscar Pistorius arrives at psychiatric hospital to begin court-ordered mental evaluation
The Associated Press May 26, 2014 12:45 am

"PRETORIA, South Africa – Oscar Pistorius has arrived at a psychiatric hospital in South Africa to begin the period of mental evaluation he was ordered to undergo by the judge at his murder trial"...

"Pistorius was in the passenger seat of a black sedan and speaking on a cellphone when he arrived Monday morning at Weskoppies Psychiatric Hospital in Pretoria. He drove into the facility behind a police van"...

So did the police van escort him, or was it already on the scene?

 

[Fuskier]

http://www.ntd.tv/en/news/world/mid...rius-begins-30day-psychiatric-assessment.html

Pistorius Begins 30-Day Psychiatric Assessment
Oscar Pistorius arrives at the Weskoppies psychiatric hospital to begin his 30-day mental assessment. 2014-05-26 03:17 AM EST
- See more at: http://www.ntd.tv/en/news/world/mid...chiatric-assessment.html#sthash.Rw9RPXNP.dpuf

 

[Hoosen_Fenger]

partial quote:No, in his testimony he has Reeva breathing, and in his bail affidavit he says she was alive, in both cases after he breaks into the toilet with the bat.

Hi Feynman - I read my post again and it looks like I did not make clear enough, the reference to Roux not challenging the moment Reeva died.

Both PT & OT agree Reeva died almost instantly from the last shot. Given the time elapsed before OP got into the Toilet, she was already dead - hence, his story cannot be true even by his own version.

 

[Forensics]

It seems the term 'narcissistic' is appearing more and more in articles relating to Oscar's personality, something I (along with many other posters) raised many weeks ago. I do feel he suffers from narcissistic personality disorder as he has exhibited many of the attributes that signal the condition. It will be interesting if his assessment confirms this.

Today I read yet another article dealing with the same subject....

"The trouble is, while we might now be familiar with a shaking, sobbing, apparently broken Oscar from his performances in court, this is a far cry from how he was known before Steenkamp's murder. After all, Pistorius, saw himself as sport royalty, as one commentator put it; he was also image-conscious, fiercely driven, highly confident, some say vain and self-centred; someone more likely to be called narcissistic than diagnosed with GAD.

Ironically, narcissists and anxiety sufferers share several characteristics – both fear being embarrassed or criticised in public, they are both often perfectionists with excessive need for approval, and both often fail to measure up to their own harsh inner critics. Pistorius ensured for himself a constant supply of affirmation through his sporting achievements and his ambitious nature, thus protecting his false self. But with his superior public image in tatters, enduring humiliation and rejection, one can only wonder how his psychic defences are holding up now.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/anxious-oscar-man-behind-mask-30302183.html

 

[Forensics]

So did the police van escort him, or was it already on the scene?

Pistorius was in the passenger seat of a black sedan and speaking on a cellphone when he arrived Monday morning at Weskoppies Psychiatric Hospital in Pretoria.He drove into the facility behind a police van.

Read more: http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_...chiatric-hospital-for-mental-evaluation-5444/

 

[Forensics]

Continuing on the Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) pathway, from what I read it often manifests itself in late adolescence or early adulthood.. A theory behind NPD is that an exaggerated sense of self-belief develops in order to compensate for vulnerability or feelings of helplessness. "Was the young Oscar not allowed to feel or express any self-pity, or anger at his condition? Is the cost of this now being played out for the world to see - the violent death of a talented and beautiful young woman?" http://www.lifeinsighttherapy.co.uk/2014/04/oscar-pistorius-narcissist/

I have also read that people with NPD can also suffer from anxiety disorders and, in many cases, the diagnosis of an anxiety disorder is the initial diagnosis prior to a NPD diagnosis.

The diagnosis of NPD is a difficult one as narcissists are very prone to lie about themselves. As a consequence it may take a long time for a therapist to notice discrepancies between the patient's version of their life and information gained from others or from public records. One questionnaire often used in the process of differential diagnosis is the Structured Clinical Interview for DSM-III-R Disorders, known as the SCID-II. The most common diagnostic instrument used for narcissistic NPD is the Narcissistic Personality Inventory first published by Robert R. Raskin and Calvin S. Hall in 1979. It consists of 223 paired statements, one reflecting narcissistic traits and the other not. Subjects are required to choose one of the two items.

In relation to Oscar, I think this is exactly what happened when he was being assessed by Dr Merryll Vorster. She did diagnose an anxiety disorder but did not have sufficient access to people apart from close family members to obtain a detailed and balanced view of his behaviours, and of course Oscar would have lied or exaggerated during his own interview, nor do I believe that tests were made to determine NPD as this would not have been beneficial to the defence.

 

[Lyra500]

What about intending to kill the intruder though?

My understanding was that if it could be shown beyond a reasonable doubt that he intended to kill the person in the toilet cubicle - whoever they were- then it would be murder with the associated 25 year term.

It should make no difference for that murder charge whether he thought it was Reeva or an intruder, he shot with the intention of killing them - murder

The law makes no distinction in this regard - an unknown intruder's life cannot be deemed less valuable or important than Reeva's - one cannot say it is not murder because a perpetrator does not know their victim. Although of course this is all purely theoretical as OP did know his victim.

Happy to be corrected if I have this wrong.

 

[Hoosen_Fenger]

It seems the term 'narcissistic' is appearing more and more in articles relating to Oscar's personality,
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/anxious-oscar-man-behind-mask-30302183.html

Snipped by me...

Hi Forensics....

I agree, there are more & more articles regarding OP's state of mind creeping into the mainstream, and I for one think it is no accident.

Even the most deluded of Pistorians, must have realised that he has dug himself into a very deep hole during his cross examination, plus, he has compromised his defence team on several occasions.

What is left? In my very humble opinion, his family are in the last chance saloon if they want to keep him from a very long sentence. The only hope is for a diagnosis which said he was mentally incapacitated on Feb14th 2013. Why not get some 'friends' (possibly paid) to start throwing out lots of stories with regard to his sanity?

It might, they hope (although highly unlikely IMO,) have some influence on any assessment. I think there is a concerted campaign by some which appears to be working with some people.

However, I will go back to what I have said all along. The State, & judicial system are working hard to cover every base to ensure he gets a fair trial. When it's over, his routes for any appeal will be firmly blocked.

 

[Estelle]

I thought side-traits because it appears there are indicators of anti-social and narcissistic , but BPD ticks all the boxes , always IMO.

Narcissists require others for attention: they rely on them for "narcissistic supply": anything that builds them up and confirms their superiority, grandiosity, and entitlement. They are terrified of losing it.

People with BPD, however, fear abandonment.

These twin fears incite behaviors that wound their loved ones and ironically drive them out of relationships with those who need them so desperately.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...at-borderlines-and-narcissists-fear-most-part

 

[Cherwell]

If the state can prove murder which imo they can, would 'rage' be a motive, or would they have to prove what he was in a rage about eg: jealousy over ex bf text or career choices?

The State doesn't have to prove a motive at all.

 

[Lyra500]

Snipped by me...

Hi Forensics....

I agree, there are more & more articles regarding OP's state of mind creeping into the mainstream, and I for one think it is no accident.

Even the most deluded of Pistorians, must have realised that he has dug himself into a very deep hole during his cross examination, plus, he has compromised his defence team on several occasions.

What is left? In my very humble opinion, his family are in the last chance saloon if they want to keep him from a very long sentence. The only hope is for a diagnosis which said he was mentally incapacitated on Feb14th 2013. Why not get some 'friends' (possibly paid) to start throwing out lots of stories with regard to his sanity?

It might, they hope (although highly unlikely IMO,) have some influence on any assessment. I think there is a concerted campaign by some which appears to be working with some people.

However, I will go back to what I have said all along. The State, & judicial system are working hard to cover every base to ensure he gets a fair trial. When it's over, his routes for any appeal will be firmly blocked.

I don't think the fact that people are suggesting OP has NPD will help him though will it?

He definitely has shown those traits long before the murder so it is not some new fabrication dreamed up by his team.

Is it possible for the presence of this type of personality disorder to be used as a mitigating factor (I had thought it was not) - does anyone have any examples?

Surely being a deeply unpleasant, self serving, lying, arrogant, self-important person can't be used?

"Sorry M'lady, I'm just a naturally horrible person so you should reduce my sentence."

This is rather a wordy article about the attempts of an individual charged with war crimes to use personality disorder as a mitigating factor and a general discussion about personality disorders and criminal sentencing:

http://www.jaapl.org/content/37/2/168.full

This bit seems of interest in the current context as I think it comes under the heading of "Be careful what you wish for" if his camp did indeed think this was a good route to go down:

In Canada, the United States, and Australia, a personality disorder diagnosis may contribute to a final determination of preventive detention.

 

[BatGunKick]

Murder directus.

In 2004 Rudi Visagie, a well known Rugby Player in SA, shot and killed his teenage daughter that he mistook for someone stealing their car one night. He was so remorseful he turned himself in immediately and apparently stated to authorities: "My life is already over, do with me what you will."

Excerpt from article:
"Dreyer, in a submission to the prosecuting authority, argued that Visagie should not be prosecuted on humanitarian grounds as the death of his daughter had been punishment enough. Steve Tuson of the Wits Law Clinic applauded the decision. "If the facts as portrayed in the media, that there was a genuine mistaking of circumstances and that it was reasonable for him to assume that the car was being stolen, then strictly speaking his conduct was negligent. Any punishment the court may well impose can in no way approach the punishment Visagie must put on himself. He must be living a thousand agonies every single day." Makhosini Nkosi, spokesperson for the National Prosecuting Authority, confirmed that Visagie would not be prosecuted. "There's no doubt that Visagie's culpability in the matter can be argued successfully in court, but we believe that justice wouldn't ultimately be served. "He has been through traumatic circumstances, and his pain would only have been aggravated by his part in her death. We feel he has learned a hard lesson and the courts cannot achieve more than that," he said.

In contrast we have Oscar.
When asked who should be blamed for shooting Reeva, his answer: "I don't know Milady." He has not shown proof of living 'a thousand agonies' as Mr Visagie endured above. Instead he carried on with training, went to Mozambique and started a new relationship.

He has tried to escape all responsibility, for Tasha's and for the incident through the sunroof, as for Reeva, he seems solely concerned with escaping all consequences of his actions that night...including using self-defense, then "not sure why" and finally GAD.
As Nel put it: "That your version is not only untruthful but it's so improbable that it cannot be reasonably possibly true…. The court WILL on the objective fact and circumstantial evidence, make the following findings… I'm putting it as strong as this, the court WILL Mr. Pistorius...."

Looking at testimony, forensics, circumstantial evidence and OP's version, I agree with Nel. I say Murder directus.

Justice must prevail.

 

[BatGunKick]

Found this interesting interview with OP which shows his outlook for his disability -

1. clearly stating the disability was never an issue for him and life was 100% normal (interesting as in trial he is claiming vulnerability)

2. Also, in the interview (VERY NB) he mentions an incident playing rugby where his leg came off during a match - and a fellow player ended up with his leg by mistake (interesting no evidence here of GAD, anxiety or any angst that OP claims he suffered with through his life. No evidence of an anxiety over a situation that would typically be traumatic for someone suffering with an anxiety disorder, or anyone for that matter!).

interview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=h_4q8FspiBs

PS. I've been lost on another thread all this time. (insert emoticon of me crawling into the floor with shame)