Judge's Order re: OP's Mental Health Eval

[vansleuths]

• He will spend 30 days as an outpatient at Weskoppies state psychiatric hospital in Pretoria, beginning on Monday 26 May.

• He must attend every weekday between 9am and 4pm (or when excused by his doctors).

• The four professionals overseeing his assessment include Dr Leon Fine, Dr Herman Pretorius and Dr Jonathan Scholtz.

• This panel will compile separate reports for the court to judge whether Pistorius was criminally liable for his actions, and whether he "appreciated the wrongfulness of his conduct".

• The court will resume on 30 June to hear the results of the evaluation.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/20/oscar-pistorius-mental-health-tests-trial-murder

...
so the maximum number of days is only 25, not 30. clearly they also expect it to take less than 25 - as they also have to meet, agree a dx, and also write up the report...

I've seen this on a few blogs where they talk about 4 people assessing OP, but only three names are listed. Haven't been able to find the fourth, anyone know?

 

[Niner]

snipped for space....

court is in session.

on the 14th may, I gave a judgment, and this is the order..

the accused will present himself as an outpatient,at 8.00 on every day of the week thereafter, for a period not exceeding 30 days, as the court may decide..

it will be like being in the witness stand for Oscar for 8 hours a day for 30 days.. except for weekends..

none of these psyches are on his payroll. none on uncle arthurs payroll.

Actually your first post #375 when you're posting of what you heard in court says every day of the week - and then you posted except weekends - is this what the Judge said, or ??

TIA!! :seeya:

 

[Cherwell]

I agree. I was under the assumption that as it wasn't a voluntary admission for treatment, that he would be taken into custody with his bail conditions revoked. Is this some kind of first?

Also, he only has to keep his temper during certain hours of the day, then he can let rip with the 'injustice' of it all when he gets back home. I'm sure Roux will have stressed the importance of not arguing with anyone (didn't go so well on the stand!) but I think OP is getting increasingly desperate and might well keep everything reined in till after 4pm each day!

So it seems to me that this can't possibly be a full and thorough evaluation as he won't be there at nights when his sleeplessness and restlessness might come into play. They can't even tell if he really does have nightmares (like he claimed) because he'll be snoozing at home!

Shouldn't matter what he's like now anyway. Obviously he's anxious and stressed. So he should be, he deserves it. The important thing is was he sane on the night of 13/14 Feb 2013 and I have neither seen nor heard anything to suggest that he wasn't.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Apparently there has been at least one other case where the accused was evaluated on an outpatient basis. They mentioned it in court last week when Masipa announced her judgment

Do you happen to know what the accused was charged with ?

 

[Cherwell]

I still don't like the idea of 2 professors being on the panel. It's my opinion that this should be done by experienced specialists who deal with these evaluations on a daily basis.

Hi Jilly, I don't quite follow your thinking here. Who are the "professors"? The names I have seen have the title of Doctor.

 

[aoibhinn]

Shouldn't matter what he's like now anyway. Obviously he's anxious and stressed. So he should be, he deserves it. The important thing is was he sane on the night of 13/14 Feb 2013 and I have neither seen nor heard anything to suggest that he wasn't.

I also fail to see how a man in the public eye, with a strong support team, was not being treated for this disorder. If it was serious enough, it would have been debilitating at times. Serious enough that he would have had to sometimes cancel public engagements and the like. One can't be gagging and retching on the red carpet. I believe in his GAD like I believe in the tooth fairy. :moo:

 

[aoibhinn]

I've seen this on a few blogs where they talk about 4 people assessing OP, but only three names are listed. Haven't been able to find the fourth, anyone know?

I specifically remember hearing three psychologists and one psychiatrist, but I can't remember where that was...

 

[soozieqtips]

Shouldn't matter what he's like now anyway. Obviously he's anxious and stressed. So he should be, he deserves it.
The important thing is was he sane on the night of 13/14 Feb 2013 and I have neither seen nor heard anything to suggest that he wasn't.

BBM - I just can't fathom how it can be established what his state of mind was 14 months ago. And, like you said, obviously he's going to be stressed and anxious, so anything he reveals now will surely reflect only his current state of mind?

 

[jilly]

Was that by the industrial psychologist?

This witness has always bugged me. Did anyone go into the qualifications?

Here's what they study in Johannesburg:

Our Industrial Psychology Programme

[B]This Programme focuses on the psychology of people in the world of work. It can also leads to registration as an Industrial Psychologist with the Health Professions Council of South Africa (HPCSA).[/B]

http://www.uj.ac.za/EN/Faculties/management/departments/hrm/coursesandprogrammes/Pages/default.aspx

 

[soozieqtips]

Hi Jilly, I don't quite follow your thinking here. Who are the "professors"? The names I have seen have the title of Doctor.

These are three of the four names:

Dr Leon Fine, Professor Herman Pretorius and Dr Jonathan Scholtz.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/20/oscar-pistorius-mental-health-tests-trial-murder

ETA Dr Leon Fine appointed for defense, Weskoppies psychiatrist Dr Herman Pretorius, psychologist Dr Jonathon Scholtz

I guess Herman Pretorius uses Dr as his title, like some professors do.

 

[SweetT]

How many crazy messed up people have we heard about that can work 9 to 5 and coworkers never suspect they are the psychotic killers etc that they are.. This watching him 8 hrs per day serves no purpose imo.... He just has 8 hrs a day to give whatever impression he wants just like a job..

 

[Jake18]

Thank you for this lithgow !

It reduced by blood pressure level a little. The guest's opinion reminded me that I should continue to have faith in Nel. As she said, if Oscar is found to have some narcissistic personality order, then the state will argue that it drove Oscar's conduct. Like someone else mentioned awhile back, there are many narcissistic men currently serving time for murder. It's not an excuse.

I still don't like the idea of 2 professors being on the panel. It's my opinion that this should be done by experienced specialists who deal with these evaluations on a daily basis.

I don't know about SA but in Australia and NZ the title of "Professor" is awarded to a practicing clinician who has contributed prominently in their field.

 

[aoibhinn]

This witness has always bugged me. Did anyone go into the qualifications?

Here's what they study in Johannesburg:

Our Industrial Psychology Programme

[B]This Programme focuses on the psychology of people in the world of work. It can also leads to registration as an Industrial Psychologist with the Health Professions Council of South Africa (HPCSA).[/B]

http://www.uj.ac.za/EN/Faculties/management/departments/hrm/coursesandprogrammes/Pages/default.aspx

I can tell you what it is, Jilly. An industrial (aka occupational/organisational) psychologist specializes in work-related psychology. So, a primary degree (major?) in psychology and a masters in the subject of specialization (human factors) is the usual path here in Ireland/UK. Globally, they often work in the corporate sector, dealing with HR issues, recruitment, efficient work performance, etc. It's a branch of I-O psychology. Very well paid work. Did I hear mention that it was a family friend he consulted with? I think I may have read that on here.

 

[jilly]

I don't know about SA but in Australia and NZ the title of "Professor" is awarded to a practicing clinician who has contributed prominently in their field.

I'd accept that!

 

[Carmelita]

Hi Carmelita !

Thanks for adding that !!

You know , it's actually quite curious you mention his smile and i'll tell you a short story.
When i started studying all this , a few months into my studies, i came across on internet one of OP's pictures and he was smiling the way you described it.
That made me go ( typically when you go through that phase , you look at faces to find something , even if it's not really there) "whoaaaa look at this guy's smile, it's contempt , it's contempt !!!.

Well , i was so convinced of what i had seen .

I then went further into my studies and learnt much more (which is the most difficult part, learning to see what's NOT there) . Let's say so much more that it made me revisit most things i had already labelled as certain.

I then came across a picture of OP (which i have recently seen again) when he's probably 2yrs old , sitting on somebody's lap , laughing the EXACT same way. (if you're looking at him, left corner of his mouth up, only left eye involved and semi-closed as in a genuine smile and same un-involvement on right side of the face).

I linked my studies with that kid's picture and i can almost definitely call that a physical trait , for i don't think that a 2yrs old kid , can understand/feel/process contempt.

Also , he always smiles like that, it's not occasionally.

However , there's still something that completely has me thinking (which is where i am with my studies atm , although big parts are very difficult for me as i have no neurological background).
There's way too much un-involvement on the right side of his face , which doesn't mean that it's not a genuine feeling , quite the contrary .
But potentially , it can mean one devastating thing: only one side of his brain is able to generate/process/push that emotion.

And if OP is right handed (i believe that he is) it would potentially lead down one path:Memory lane , the part of his brain used more memory "storage".


In short , his smile is true (in general) but there's only one side of his face that can generate/manage that emotion.....It's as if there's nothing in his true subconscious memory that can handle such a joyous and positive emotion: happiness

Take any pic of him with Reeva when he faces forward and cover the left side of his face , you'll see what i mean.....It's like another person.

Thanks Cri,

I have his autobiography in my hand and you are right he had the same smile as a very young boy. There aren't any pictures of his face "smiling" at the end of a race but I thought I saw a full smile, but I am probably wrong.

Very interesting, I will have to do some reading about it. I tried to do the smile to get the emotion behind it and I feel like I would be questioning someone if I made that face. Any how small child would neither be questioning the truth (unless he was trying to figure out if he had legs or not) or holding people in contempt.

So to be clear you are saying that it is his right side that is un-involved ? Can I ask why that is, as his right eye scrunches up like a genuine smile and the right side of his mouth curves up, it seems like it is his left side that is not involved in the emotion.

Anyhow I find it fascinating, thank you for your knowledge.

 

[Fuskier]

I also fail to see how a man in the public eye, with a strong support team, was not being treated for this disorder. If it was serious enough, it would have been debilitating at times. Serious enough that he would have had to sometimes cancel public engagements and the like. One can't be gagging and retching on the red carpet. I believe in his GAD like I believe in the tooth fairy. :moo:

What about generalized anger and self-righteous disorder?

 

[CriLondon]

Thanks Cri,

I have his autobiography in my hand and you are right he had the same smile as a very young boy. There aren't any pictures of his face "smiling" at the end of a race but I thought I saw a full smile, but I am probably wrong.

Very interesting, I will have to do some reading about it. I tried to do the smile to get the emotion behind it and I feel like I would be questioning someone if I made that face. Any how small child would neither be questioning the truth (unless he was trying to figure out if he had legs or not) or holding people in contempt.

So to be clear you are saying that it is his right side that is un-involved ? Can I ask why that is, as his right eye scrunches up like a genuine smile and the right side of his mouth curves up, it seems like it is his left side that is not involved in the emotion.

Anyhow I find it fascinating, thank you for your knowledge.

You're welcome !!
Since I've started learning about this it has been an incredible journey.
I've learnt so much ...and i never stop, every day , to learn something new.

I'm looking for a couple of pics i refer to , i'll put them up in a minute to visually explain myself better.

 

[Zinn]

How many crazy messed up people have we heard about that can work 9 to 5 and coworkers never suspect they are the psychotic killers etc that they are.. This watching him 8 hrs per day serves no purpose imo.... He just has 8 hrs a day to give whatever impression he wants just like a job..

I don't know. He's exhibited odd behavior during the trial, so I'd think they'd see odd behavior from him on an outpatient basis. For example, plugging his ears to prevent hearing testimony was very strange behavior and he didn't do it just once, he did it regularly.

All of the above is just my opinion.

 

[jilly]

These are three of the four names:

Dr Leon Fine, Professor Herman Pretorius and Dr Jonathan Scholtz.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/20/oscar-pistorius-mental-health-tests-trial-murder

ETA Dr Leon Fine appointed for defense, Weskoppies psychiatrist Dr Herman Pretorius, psychologist Dr Jonathon Scholtz

I guess Herman Pretorius uses Dr as his title, like some professors do.

I failed to make that correlation before knowing full well, here in Canada, professors have a Doctorate Degree and therefore have the title of Dr. I'm still not comfortable with any 'Dr' on that panel that is not a practising medical Dr.

So according to your link, we have two practising Doctors - Dr Pretorius (psychiatrist) and Scholtz (psychologist). It's the Dr Leon Fine, appointed by the defense that we don't know about and of course the 4th Dr.

 

[Carmelita]

I think this is a good example Cri and I think if you cover the left side of his face that his smile seems more genuine but I think that you are right that it s just a physical characteristic.