Kaine tells us about Terri and PPD - what role does it play in this case, if any?

[Adalena935]

I don't know what medicines my husband is on... He takes something for asthma and something to prevent migraines and occasionally something for his pain or stomach troubles but I have no clue about the brand names or the dosages. I would probably recognize the usual packaging visually but he's had several generic products that are pretty non-descript.

A spouse might not ask and another might not tell. Some people might feel that it is offensive for spouses to watch the other's medication beyond the occasional question about have you been taking the pills and are they helping. If a spouse demands to be allowed to observe the pill-taking each day and pick up the prescriptions etc. it could be seen as patronizing. Especially if someone is not willing to take their medications they may take offence if someone wants to control it. Mental health medications may be an extra sensitive issue.

All that maybe plus it may be that every relationship is different and some couples just never get into it. It's just never a part of the relationship very much. If someone's very ill yeah but otherwise daily monitoring no. Maybe some people don't mind each other that well when it comes to those sorts of things. Maybe she wasn't that ill and maybe if she had been he might have made an issue of it. Didn't he sort of elude to that? I know I read somewhere that he said she wasn't always forthright but he never thought it would be anything so dramatic; my paraphrase.

 

[Aedrys]

Supposing she hurt Kyron somehow it makes sense for her to be self-centered regardless of diagnosis. She wouldn't need to focus on finding Kyron because she'd know where he is and might not want him found, and she would have trouble showing real concern for Kyron's parents because she would never have hurt him and hidden him in the first place if she was the least bit worried about how devastated all his loved ones are going to be.

The bolded portion is what really confuses me. Why on earth would she think that if Kryon went missing, SHE would get all of the attention? What made her think that KH and DY would feel sorry for her? I don't get how she thought they wouldn't be furious at her and not think she was involved. She must be living some kind of deluded fantasy life to think that if Kyron was gone, somehow she would be more important than him. That makes no sense to me. These people are not the A's, they are not going to go into denial mode and protect her. And if there really was tension in and between the homes, she is nuts for making Kyron disappear in the first place. Talk about going from the frying pan into the fire.

 

[butwhatif?]

My friends mom was a changed person during her menstrual cycle, I wonder if thats when the erratic behavior took place. The friend would tell me anything could make her mom blow up, and even once her mom had hit her, enough to bruise.... I think after having kids, some people hormonal level doesn't balance quite right.

Normally this hits during the pre-menstrual cycle ...Anytime after ovulation and prior to menstruation.
For me, it's the whole two weeks out of every month, and for those two weeks I need Xanax to curb the massive mood swings , self harming, and/or suicidal ideation.
Before the xanax, I had a genuine (not cry for help) suicide attempt and two psych admissions- both times I got my period within a few days.
I have sufferred depression and PMDD since my teens, but PMDD is very different.

While it often manifests in puberty, it seems to get worse during 20's and 30's and has been known to suddenly occur with any hormone altering change, like having a baby, or peri-menopause.

But if I may, I'd like to explain what it feels like....for me anyway.(which is pretty much the same as everyone elses stories on the PMDD forums)

Firstly it's regular, like clockwork. It doesn't just happen some months, it happens EVERY month. During ovulation I feel great, but over the next few days I decline, and the best way to describe it is MAJOR hyper-sensitivity to everything in my environment....and each day it gets increasingly worse, until just before my period arrives.

Noise sets me off big-time (and kids make lots of noise), I can't bare to be touched. I cringe when my kids try to give me a cuddle, and if they touch my head, I snap.
Even lots of movement (kids running around) makes me feel like I'm going to explode. I become unbelieveably impatient and extremely hostile, irrational, and agitated.
I yell at hubby and kids constantly- everything they do annoys me... The very things I love about them during the first two weeks of my cycle, when I'm the real me.

I also become more paranoid during my PMDD phase. Not just in waking life, even in dreams. I feel like people are out to hurt me, emotionally.
I have lost friendships, r/ships, jobs, and almost my life because of PMDD- me being the one to shut everyone out.

I become obsessed with things, or any slight, and cannot let things go.

When my hubby had one of his psych appts a while back, he mentioned how tough it is at home for those two weeks every month. The docs response was "Oh, that PMDD stuff is all made up by American psychiatrists".
He may have a degree, but hubby lives with me and knows how real this is.

As soon as it hits, I give hubby the 'cyclone approaching' warning but he doesn't need it. He can see the difference as it's happening. It's impossible to miss.

I can hide it to a degree to outsiders, for very short periods of time, like going to drop off DD at school, and keeping it together for appearances sake. But to the other mums at the school who I am close with, they can see it in my face even when I'm trying to hide it.

Doctors often rx an anti depressant which can help. And the the pill or other hormones....but they generally make it worse because it stems from a hormonal sensitivity.

All I can say is that I am extremely grateful that I have a hubby who cares enough to support me, and put up with me during these times, and who wants to be involved in my mental health plan for our kids, himself and me.

I think it's terribly sad for Kyron and baby K, that their Daddy doesn't appear to have been as supportive and involved in Terri's mental health, as my hubby is.

Sorry for the long-winded post, but it's possible that PPD evolved into PMDD, and played a role in this case. Even if it didn't, the symptoms are similar.

ETA:

Often we see clinically women who present for the first time with PMDD after the birth of a child. We don’t quite understand why that happens, but that is a typical presentation. In this population this period of major depression is very common and we also know that women with PMDD

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FWIW , Pre-menstrual dysphoric disorder has successfully been used as a murder defense in the US in the past.

JMO and personal experience.

 

[Donjeta]

All that maybe plus it may be that every relationship is different and some couples just never get into it. It's just never a part of the relationship very much. If someone's very ill yeah but otherwise daily monitoring no. Maybe some people don't mind each other that well when it comes to those sorts of things. Maybe she wasn't that ill and maybe if she had been he might have made an issue of it. Didn't he sort of elude to that? I know I read somewhere that he said she wasn't always forthright but he never thought it would be anything so dramatic; my paraphrase.

"She has a deceitful side that I have experienced several times," says Kaine. "As far as going to extremes with the plot, I didn't see that coming at all."
http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20400681,00.html

 

[Pensfan]

Hi there Pensfan! I didn't see reports of Terri being disorganized in her thinking or any evidence that she was out of touch with reality. What I do know is that Terri was diagnosed with PPD and if not treated properly PPD can become a depression with psychotic features.

We know from Kaine that Terri was diagnosed with PPD. If we knew what medications she was on we would know if psychosis was a problem. Meds such as Risperdal would give us insight as to how serious her PPD was. Not seeing psychosis, suicidal and homicidal ideation can often mean good control with medication. If the meds are stopped too soon, we will see symptoms return, I see it over and over.

The only way that psychosis (PPP) would have played a part at 18 months post partum is if Terri was being treated and fell of her med regimen. Manual of Mental Disorders: DSM-IV-TR. is vague regarding PPP and we don't know if she was seeing a doctor who used DSM rather than his/her own experience. As time goes by, and postpartum is no longer obvious, a diagnose of major depression with psychotic features could be given.

We don't know if physical illnesses such as hypothyroidism was ruled out but we can all hope she was treated properly.

The technicalities of diagnosing often get in the way of good treatment moo mho

Kaine didn't elaborate on whether Terri's doc gave her Estrodial patches or antidepressants. He also didn't explain if the doc determined Terri didn't need further treatment or if Terri stopped her treatment without consulting her doc.

Woman are not given an antipsychotic that can cause tardive dyskinesia when they have PPD. I cannot see any doc prescribing any PPP patient Risperdol without admitting her first. Kaine didn't suggest that Terri's "disorder" required hospitalization.

PPP normally occurs within the first month post delivery. It is EXTREMELY rare occuring in < than 0.1% of women.

Hypothyroidism might cause symptoms of depression, but psychosis (mania) is more likely found in hYperthyroidism.

You are correct about Major Depression with psychotic features being a more likely diagnosis for someone 18 months post delivery.

Yes...in EXTREMELY rare cases PPD can turn into PPP within the first few months after delivery....not 18 months. Yes, if PPD is not treated it can progress BUT anyone that has ever been around a psychotic person can identify that this person is psychotic VERY quickly. Psychotic people cannot hide their psychosis for weeks and certainly not for months when they are living with other mentally health individuals.

Terri's behavior, that occured when she returned home from supposedly running errands on june 4th, shows that she was not psychotic. She was on Facebook joking, oriented to reality, "poking" males, and joking around while typing "LMAO".....these are not indicative of psychosis. If she had been on the internet posting about the aliens that live in her brain or how the CIA is camped out in her bathroom, then we could worry that she was perhaps psychotic.

 

[wondering1]

The bolded portion is what really confuses me. Why on earth would she think that if Kryon went missing, SHE would get all of the attention? What made her think that KH and DY would feel sorry for her? I don't get how she thought they wouldn't be furious at her and not think she was involved. She must be living some kind of deluded fantasy life to think that if Kyron was gone, somehow she would be more important than him. That makes no sense to me. These people are not the A's, they are not going to go into denial mode and protect her. And if there really was tension in and between the homes, she is nuts for making Kyron disappear in the first place. Talk about going from the frying pan into the fire.

Maybe for the same reasons that some people are looking kinda funny at DY. Maybe TH's convinced herself of that same storyline.

DY got sick, TH took care of Kyron. DY came back, Kaine decided he wanted to keep Kyron, even though TH didn't (or at least she was willing to give him back to DY). So, for the past 5 years, TH has gotten all the HARD WORK -- the school, the day-to-day, the projects, the meals, the laundry, the medical or behavior issues (if there are any), schlepping back and forth for the custody swap, giving up her body building, etc., etc. While DY gets the fun stuff -- the weekends.

And she's done an AMAZING job. Look how she volunteers at the school, takes the kids on all kinds of trips and fun outings, blah, blah, blah, even with a infant, then toddler. In her mind she may believe that SHE is the one who deserves the sympathy to which Kyron's *mother* is entitled. Maybe it never occurred to her that she wouldn't be the one everyone was fawning all over with pity and sympathy and concern. Just speculating, obviously

 

[Donjeta]

The bolded portion is what really confuses me. Why on earth would she think that if Kryon went missing, SHE would get all of the attention? What made her think that KH and DY would feel sorry for her? I don't get how she thought they wouldn't be furious at her and not think she was involved. She must be living some kind of deluded fantasy life to think that if Kyron was gone, somehow she would be more important than him. That makes no sense to me. These people are not the A's, they are not going to go into denial mode and protect her. And if there really was tension in and between the homes, she is nuts for making Kyron disappear in the first place. Talk about going from the frying pan into the fire.

I'm sorry to have confused you, I must have expressed myself badly if I gave the impression of trying to say that she thought she would get all the attention, become more important to Kyron's parents or that she expected them to protect her no matter what, because it was not what I meant at all.

It was just a comment on the discussion about how her body language did not seem to project real concern for Kyron's parents and what it could mean. Just an observation that if you were concerned about how a certain person feels then you might not choose to kidnap or kill their child in the first place because it would of course make them miserable and you'd tend to avoid that if you care about how they feel.

If she deliberately planned to hurt him she would probably have had some kind of selfish motivation and it would be consistent to continue to show self-centered behavior.

It may also protect the perp's sense of self if there are some feelings of remorse, shame and regret because focusing on oneself keeps the focus out of the others and lets you ignore or minimize in your mind the pain that you caused them.

 

[christee]

Sorry if this has been mentioned already but if TH was dealing with PPD, and she plotted to have her husband killed and had already done something to Kyron (or had also hired someone else), would it be beyond the realm of possibility that she was planning on doing something to the baby and herself? In her depressed state she'd be of the mentality that if she killed herself she was going to take her family with her but didn't have the nerve to do it herself...
IDK...just a thought

 

[Amster]

There is absolutely NO evidence that Kaine wasn't supportive and involved when Terri supposedly had PPD....NONE! So, he doesn't recall the name of whatever pill she was given or when she stopped taking it. What?? She's not a child! IF Terri had anything to do with Kyron disappearing, she is responsible for that....not Kaine, not Desiree, not the landscaper. IF Terri is innocent and not involved, then whomever took Kyron is responsible for it. Why does everyone else have to be dragged into something done by somebody else. Makes no sense to me.

 

[Pensfan]

IMO, Kaine made the comment about Terri&#8217;s PPD because he is grieving the loss of his child and blaming himself. During the process of grief, individuals can blame themselves for things that they did or didn&#8217;t do. Grieving people can feel guilty for not &#8220;somehow&#8221; preventing the death of a loved one even if it is illogical to do so. Kaine is searching for answers.Today he has grasped Terri&#8217;s depression and he is using it to &#8220;beat himself up.&#8221; He is thinking that he should have known Terri could kill Kyron. because she was treated for depression. This is just illogical. Terri was not psychotic in the days before Ky&#8217;s disappearance or on the day of June 4th. Kaine&#8217;s therapist and friends need to repeatedly reinforce to him that he is not responsible. Terri was rational and made her own very bad choices on that day.

 

[Donjeta]

I believe most people who decide to take their family with them when they commit suicide tend to kill them all pretty much the same time or the same day, not one at a time, and if they plan to be dead soon themselves there is no real need to hide the bodies.

 

[eyes4crime]

Psychotic symptoms are behaviors that show that the individual is NOT in touch with reality. The symptoms can include delusions, hallucinations, paranoia, extreme mania, and etc... To be diagnosed as psychotic, an individual has to be unable to meet their daily activities/life demands and be out-of-touch with reality. Kaine and TH’s mom would clearly know if TH was psychotic. TH would have been unable to take Kyron to school that morning and act appropriately around others. Members of Terri's and Kaine's gym would also be able to tell if TH was psychotic.

TH was not psychotic. She made many rational and organized decisions that day. She fed her children breakfast, took Kyron to the science fair, supposedly ran errands, posted on the internet, talked with her rational husband, bus driver, teachers, and LE that day. No one stated that TH was disoriented and was acting paranoid, delusional, talking to voices in her head, and etc.... She was not psychotic and there are many witnesses to her non-psychotic/sane behavior.

You're right, Terri does not look actively psychotic. We simply don't know if Terri is still on medications!!! The right ones, along with therapy and support, can return a person back to previous functioning. Would she relapse if meds are stopped? As blood levels drop, all kinds of symptoms can emerge and sometimes the picture isn't pretty. We have no idea if Terri continues to be on her medication. For all we know she went off of them a year ago. Maybe she never took them to begin with.

I can only go on what we have been told by Kaine: Terri was diagnosed with PPD. Terri was on medication, but he couldn't remember which ones. He was told to watch her for 6 months. We don't know which six months, but apparently Kaine thought she was okay. He thought maybe she could be hiding symptoms as recently as the last month or two. That's all I know about Terri. moo

One thing I do know: There are women diagnosed with PPD and/or PPP who continue treatment well into their second year. A drug free trial did not work out, symptoms returned. If a woman and her doctor want to continue to call it PPD/PPP rather than major depression with psychotic features, so be it. moo

 

[glorybug]

Thank you. It is NOT fact until her doctors say it is. I'm really going to stop following this case if it isn't going to be about finding Kyron.

I'm not a gossiper, I don't like slander, and this isn't some imaginary case. There is a boy that needs to be found, and as far as I can tell, not one of the parents is doing anything to achieve that.

Find the boy first and save all the ugly, ugly gossip for the trial.

Untill we hear a Drs diagnosis of her not just Kaines opinion.I don't think it's really fair to her to assume what is going on.It's not fact.

 

[jashrema]

Frankly, I'm a little surprised it took this long for someone to bring up PPD. The daughter is 18 months now? I for one am not buying that 18 months later her PPD got "the best of her" and she did something to Kyron. THAT would be psychotic, and we know she isn't that.
I'm a nurse, and I have Never seen PPD directed towards a sibling of the child that was born. The PPD affects the mother and the child that was just born! Not a 7 year old sibling! She seemed to bond quite well with her baby and was certainly an attentive and involved mother.
I know I'm armchair diagnosing, but I do not consider her to have PPP either. People can barely function with that!
I personally think it was just the same thing it's been since the beginning of time. If she is guilty, it's because of revenge...to hurt someone the worst, you hurt their child, or the "cry for attention", she thought if Kyron went missing it would bring her and Kaine closer together, or she would become the center of attention as she was the last one to see him. Then the WHOLE world would know what a long-suffering, great mom she was/is.
I totally think she is deranged and evil if she did do it, but I'm not buying the PPD defense if that comes to pass.

 

[butwhatif?]

I'm interested in the part of the interview where DY says that TH has been lying for the last 7 years that she's known her.

What makes her say something so broad? Did she gradually realize this about Terri, or is it a "hindsight" revelation because things are becoming more clear in her mind about Terri's behavior.

And, if this is the case, PPD would not be the cause of odd/deceiving behavior for all that time.

BBM

Often there is already and underlying illness that may or may not have been diagnosed previously.
Because of my history of depression, anxiety and PMDD, after my first daughter was born the nurses sat down with hubby and I to explain that I was at an increased risk of getting PPD.

 

[Pensfan]

You're right, Terri does not look actively psychotic. We simply don't know if Terri is still on medications!!! The right ones, along with therapy and support, can return a person back to previous functioning. Would she relapse if meds are stopped? As blood levels drop, all kinds of symptoms can emerge and sometimes the picture isn't pretty. We have no idea if Terri continues to be on her medication. For all we know she went off of them a year ago. Maybe she never took them to begin with.

I can only go on what we have been told by Kaine: Terri was diagnosed with PPD. Terri was on medication, but he couldn't remember which ones. He was told to watch her for 6 months. We don't know which six months, but apparently Kaine thought she was okay. He thought maybe she could be hiding symptoms as recently as the last month or two. That's all I know about Terri. moo

One thing I do know: There are women diagnosed with PPD and/or PPP who continue treatment well into their second year. A drug free trial did not work out, symptoms returned. If a woman and her doctor want to continue to call it PPD/PPP rather than major depression with psychotic features, so be it. moo

You are correct in stating that we don't know if Terri was on meds June 4th.
It is sad that anyone is depressed, but in Terri's case, it doesn't provide her with an excuse to commit a homicide. Over NINE percent of the US population is depressed at any time. This equals 28 million people in the USA that are clinically depressed. Being depressed is clearly not an excuse for killing a child. Not being on antidepressants is also not an excuse for killing a child.

IMO, Kaine is experiencing grief and blaming himself. He has grasped on to the fact that 1 1/2 years ago, Terri was depressed. He is "beating himself up" with this thinking that somehow he could have prevented Ky's disappearance. Many people have illogical guilt while grieving. In his grieving, sleep-deprived state, Kaine's statement does not prove that Terri had severe depression (1 1/2 years ago). It does prove that Kaine is feeling guilty and this frequently happens to parents who have lost a child. It is illogical, but the feeling of guilty occurs because parents falsely believe they should be able to protect their children from anything and everything.

 

[Noway]

If Terri is on mood-altering medication, would LE have attempted to give her a polygraph? And would the medication have affected the results?

(OT ... When I get offline, I'm going to my husband's prescription meds and writing down the names and doses and when subscribed. I'll do the same for my one medication. Because while I think it is a fabulous idea to have such a list in case one goes to the hospital unexpectedly, we were not prepared for such an event. Thank you to whoever it was who mentioned having such a list. )

 

[Pensfan]

One thing I do know: There are women diagnosed with PPD and/or PPP who continue treatment well into their second year. A drug free trial did not work out, symptoms returned. If a woman and her doctor want to continue to call it PPD/PPP rather than major depression with psychotic features, so be it. moo

Yes, there are women that are on antidepressants well into their second year post delivery. Realize that almost sixteen million American women are clinically depressed. The women on antidepressants into their second year postpartum may have been clinically depressed regardless of their obstetrical history. Some of these women will be on antidepressants for decades. Notice that most of the risk factors for postpartum depression include having a personal history or family history of depression or Bipolar Disorder (which includes having periods of depression).

 

[butwhatif?]

PPD and PPP are very different-Post Partum Depression is unlikely to cause her to harm Kyron 19 months after the birth of her child. Post Partum Psychosis is a viable defense, but certainly not 19 months after the birth of a child.

I think there is a lack of understanding regarding this...JMO. Intractable Depression is unlikely to cause her to plot to disappear her step son so sucessfully that he cannot be found by the FBI. Not buying it. Sorry.

This is a good article to check out. ( much more at link)
Bolding is mine.

http://www.obgyn.net/femalepatient/femalepatient.asp?page=leopold

At the other end of the spectrum is the truly devastating puerperal psychosis. A comparatively rare disease, it complicates only 0.1% to 0.2% of deliveries--but this is 12 to 14.5 times the prenatal incidence of psychosis.6,9 Symptoms generally present within the first 4 weeks postpartum, when the risk of hospitalization is 22 times greater, but can manifest up to 90 days after delivery.
A second, smaller, peak in incidence is evident at 18 to 24 months.

Patients suffering from puerperal psychosis are severely impaired, suffering from hallucinations and delusions that frequently focus on the infant dying or being divine or demonic. These hallucinations often command the patient to hurt herself or others, placing these mothers at the highest risk for committing infanticide and/or suicide. Most of these patients suffer from affective disorders (primarily bipolar illness), but schizophrenia and even organic brain syndromes are also diagnosed.

 

[Pensfan]

This is a good article to check out. ( much more at link)
Bolding is mine.

http://www.obgyn.net/femalepatient/femalepatient.asp?page=leopold

^Indeed. Read this from your statement:
Patients suffering from puerperal psychosis are SEVERELY impaired, suffering from hallucinations and delusions.

TH was not severely impaired on June 4th. Her behavior was not considered to be abnormal. She talked with teachers, the principle, her husband, internet friends, the bus driver, and LE and no one saw any psychotic behavior. Her behavior was organized and rational.