Kaine tells us about Terri and PPD - what role does it play in this case, if any?

[GrainneDhu]

IMO you might think "What did you do to him, you witch" if you just deeply dislike somebody even if you never thought she was an actual danger to children before.

I think if there used to be a messy divorce and strained relationship with your ex's new wife a lot of gut reactions might have been explained away as the result of the jealousy, anger, bitterness and any other negative feelings that might persist between two women in such a situation and if people are trying to establish a good working relationship they may try to ignore such feelings.

Besides, you might need some kind of evidence for the courts to give you full custody. An apparently well cared for child might not be removed from his established home just because the mother has a bad feeling about the stepmom.

I agree with all that.

Particularly on DY's likelihood of regaining custody. When she returned to the US, she had a large medical bill and it was reported that she had to move in with her parents to get her feet on the ground again.

By law, judges in my state must give greatest consideration to the parent who has been the most recent caretaker in normal custody decisions. Unless there is some evidence to think that the child is not being adequately taken care of, it would be very difficult in this state for the mother to regain custody. Even if the other parent has much higher income and could provide a higher standard of living, that is not (on its own) enough to shift custody away from the parent that already has custody.

In one of the interviews, KH was asked about his relationship with Kyron and he started off by saying that in the hospital after Kyron was born, he spent a lot of time holding Kyron so Dad smell would be familiar to him. That strikes me as a guy who really wanted Kyron and was planning to be a big part of his life.

 

[Calliope]

Psychotic symptoms are behaviors that show that the individual is NOT in touch with reality. The symptoms can include delusions, hallucinations, paranoia, extreme mania, and etc... To be diagnosed as psychotic, an individual has to be unable to meet their daily activities/life demands and be out-of-touch with reality. Kaine and TH’s mom would clearly know if TH was psychotic. TH would have been unable to take Kyron to school that morning and act appropriately around others. Members of Terri's and Kaine's gym would also be able to tell if TH was psychotic.

TH was not psychotic. She made many rational and organized decisions that day. She fed her children breakfast, took Kyron to the science fair, supposedly ran errands, posted on the internet, talked with her rational husband, bus driver, teachers, and LE that day. No one stated that TH was disoriented and was acting paranoid, delusional, talking to voices in her head, and etc.... She was not psychotic and there are many witnesses to her non-psychotic/sane behavior.

I have to disagree. Not about Terri specifically, but the blanket statement that people suffering from a psychosis can't function in daily activities. In my experience, it's more of a continuum.

 

[Donjeta]

Why would Kaine admit this, which seems to help Terri out, but not even have an opinion about Terri's relationship with Kyron? Unless he knows it was very bad. Then he would not want to say anything.

I think that he may have been advised not to talk about Terri's relationship with Kyron. Lawyers could twist and roll that kind of thing. The media and the internet as well. If he says that things were good with Kyron and Terri it is going to be used in her defense if there is ever a trial and if he says there were problems he'll get attacked for letting her be near his kids.

Another reason he didn't want to comment might be if he used to think that things were pretty okay with Kyron and Terri. If it now seems to him that Terri did something to Kyron he might feel that what he thought he knew about their relationship was false. I'm sure if you're blindsided with something like this you might start to second guess yourself and the things you thought previously to be good. If someone hurts your children it tends to color your perception of that person.

 

[Calliope]

Can a psychotic fake being "normal?" Can they speak normally and converse, i.e. while having raving mad thoughts at same time? There is so much about mental illness that is still unknown and each case seems to be different.

I have a mentally ill brother, who says that voices have been in his head for years, but they only remind me of his obsessions, i.e. how many times to scrub his hands, etc....but he says they repeat and repeat endlessly, yet he can carry on a conversation and you would not know he is going through that. Not that he carries on conversations with anyone outside a very few family members.

I'm not sure I'd call it faking, but yes. Some people do appear quite 'normal'. We have a patient who comes in frequently for medical issues, and to see her behavior and to talk to her, she seems like any other little ol' lady. But if you dig deeper, you'll find she is psychotic, with typical paranoid delusions. And I've found that many understand their hallucinations and delusions are not real to others and that others consider it to be disturbing, and therefore they are pretty good at keeping it to themselves. And like I said above, in my experience it's a matter of degree.

Someone mentioned her FB activities after he went missing as proof she was reality-based (that she was posting LMAO, poking people, etc.). I think just the opposite could be argued; after all, wasn't it this behavior that had so many people upset, claiming that's not how a 'normal' person behaves when their child goes missing?

 

[believe09]

I think that we are seeing a germ of justification for what might have happened here...I am sure that Kaine is having trouble wrapping his mind around what might have caused her to harm his son. Which he has been told happened if his interviews and RO are to be believed.

No one wants to think they married someone who would eventually kidnap your child and cause you (at the present time) a months worth of horrific emotional pain. I would be grasping for answers too.

 

[believe09]

I'm not sure I'd call it faking, but yes. Some people do appear quite 'normal'.

Someone mentioned her FB activities after he went missing as proof she was reality-based (that she was posting LMAO, poking people, etc.). I think just the opposite could be argued; after all, wasn't it this behavior that had so many people upset, claiming that's not how someone acts when their child goes missing?

While these are two different cases, this is essentially the same defense being put forth in the Caylee Anthony case-"Ugly Coping" indicates that Casey Anthony was in some kind of fugue state while she was out partying after she either killed her child or the child was kidnapped....depending on what side of the fence you are on. Early on, there was an attempt at a PPD link as well because of a miscarriage Casey allegedly suffered.

 

[Calliope]

While these are two different cases, this is essentially the same defense being put forth in the Caylee Anthony case-"Ugly Coping" indicates that Casey Anthony was in some kind of fugue state while she was out partying after she either killed her child or the child was kidnapped....depending on what side of the fence you are on. Early on, there was an attempt at a PPD link as well because of a miscarriage Casey allegedly suffered.

I can't really comment too much on the FB pages; from what I've seen, it wasn't as bad as so many have made it out to be. In fact, there was a link in a news article to the posts made surrounding the day he disappeared and I didn't see anything at all that was inappropriate. I didn't go digging into her FB as some have, so I can only judge from what I read in the day or two after.

 

[believe09]

I can't really comment too much on the FB pages; from what I've seen, it wasn't as bad as so many have made it out to be. In fact, there was a link in a news article to the posts made surrounding the day he disappeared and I didn't see anything at all that was inappropriate. I didn't go digging into her FB as some have, so I can only judge from what I read in the day or two after.

Agreed-the degree was different. I did not read TH's fb page at all so I have no idea....Like you I am going off of the comments.

I was referring to the concept-the idea that when someone is in shock, they can act out in ways that seem inappropriate to those who are not in the same kind of shock. With Casey you can look at her actions two ways-she was now free to party her brains out, or she was so devestated she put it out of her mind and it was business as usual. In TH's case, I suppose based upon what I read regarding her FB it could be said that she was refusing to "believe" that Kyron was gone so it was business as usual on her FB page...poking, and posting about the gym etc.

Or not.

 

[human]

It could be that Terri has all of these issues, but she and the missing child have nothing to do with each other. It could have been someone else.

Maybe all of her strange actions have to do with her issues rather than guilt.

But why doesn't she tell where she really was that day? What could be worse than this?

 

[eyes4crime]

I'm not sure I'd call it faking, but yes. Some people do appear quite 'normal'. We have a patient who comes in frequently for medical issues, and to see her behavior and to talk to her, she seems like any other little ol' lady. But if you dig deeper, you'll find she is psychotic, with typical paranoid delusions. And I've found that many understand their hallucinations and delusions are not real to others and that others consider it to be disturbing, and therefore they are pretty good at keeping it to themselves. And like I said above, in my experience it's a matter of degree.

Someone mentioned her FB activities after he went missing as proof she was reality-based (that she was posting LMAO, poking people, etc.). I think just the opposite could be argued; after all, wasn't it this behavior that had so many people upset, claiming that's not how a 'normal' person behaves when their child goes missing?

I'm a big subscriber to the 'continuum' theory so, of course, I completely agree with you lol. I'm a believer in Dr. Robert Hare who puts psychopathy on a sliding scale, and it makes much sense to me. How bout: faulty thinking vs. overt psychosis. Medications working but not quite enough so you have breakthrough psychosis. My gosh, I see that one all the time.

We know very little about Terri and her thinking, but there are two incidents in particular that I question.

...Terri was going to enter a body building contest this month (if true) and

...She had the secretary at Kyron's school call Desire to tell her Kyron was missing

...Certainly not overt psychosis, but how about faulty thinking? Or thinking that becomes disorganized with stress? I know most would say it's guilt, but what if it's not?

We simply don't know enough to diagnose. moo

 

[wondering1]

This bothers me. The exact quote was " I thought: she better not have done anything to my son".

It implies to me that she had reason to believe Terri could have endangered her child. Something had to have happened prior to make her think this. So why, why, why did DY not try to get custody of Kyron, or get him away from Terri?
I know hindsight is 20/20....but still. And it just doesn't sound like hindsight- more like forethought.

I'm not bashing the parents, because we still don't know all the details.

Maybe DY did try, and that was the final straw for Terri.

MOO

There's some confusion in my mind about this because of DY's two slightly different accounts of this thought. The first is the one you quoted, and suggests that the minute she got the call and found out that Kyron was missing, this was her immediate thought.

Another account is in the video of the sit-down with the Oregonian or WW. In that account DY says (paraphrasing) the school called her, she went back and forth a bit with the person about Kyron being "missing" and DY was like "what do you mean, missing?" Then DY asked if TH was there and the secretary said yes. So DY apparently hangs up with the secretary and calls TH on her cell. In that conversation, TH tells her in pretty good detail about exactly what SHE did that morning. Went to the Science Fair with Kyron, saw him walking down the hall toward his class, waved and left. After talking about that conversation, DY then says she actually said (presumably to TH) "you'd better not have done anything to my son" based on that conversation and, imo, maybe a little bit of historic mistrust and hindsight. Which makes a LOT of sense to me. Why all the detail about TH? Why wouldn't TH say something like "omg, kyron didn't get off the bus. I took him to school this morning and he didn't come home on the bus, and he's not at the school!!!"

Did you watch that video?

 

[bessie]

I'm a big subscriber to the 'continuum' theory so, of course, I completely agree with you lol. I'm a believer in Dr. Robert Hare who puts psychopathy on a sliding scale, and it makes much sense to me. How bout: faulty thinking vs. overt psychosis. Medications working but not quite enough so you have breakthrough psychosis. My gosh, I see that one all the time.

We know very little about Terri and her thinking, but there are two incidents in particular that I question.

...Terri was going to enter a body building contest this month (if true) and

...She had the secretary at Kyron's school call Desire to tell her Kyron was missing

...Certainly not overt psychosis, but how about faulty thinking? Or thinking that becomes disorganized with stress? I know most would say it's guilt, but what if it's not?

We simply don't know enough to diagnose. moo

How about medications that cause "faulty thinking" and irrational behavior?

 

[eyes4crime]

How about medications that cause "faulty thinking" and irrational behavior?

Thank you, how did I forget that one? :waitasec: And if blood levels are elevated or nearing the toxic range, or there is toxicity. That's exactly what happens with so many common meds - like antidepresants etc. moo

 

[gardeness]

I'm a big subscriber to the 'continuum' theory so, of course, I completely agree with you lol. I'm a believer in Dr. Robert Hare who puts psychopathy on a sliding scale, and it makes much sense to me. How bout: faulty thinking vs. overt psychosis. Medications working but not quite enough so you have breakthrough psychosis. My gosh, I see that one all the time.

We know very little about Terri and her thinking, but there are two incidents in particular that I question.

...Terri was going to enter a body building contest this month (if true) and

...She had the secretary at Kyron's school call Desire to tell her Kyron was missing

...Certainly not overt psychosis, but how about faulty thinking? Or thinking that becomes disorganized with stress? I know most would say it's guilt, but what if it's not?

We simply don't know enough to diagnose. moo

I wonder about this incident, too--is there documentation that Terri had the secretary call Desiree? Wasn't Kaine with Terri--could he be the one who had the school call? (And, they weren't personally at the school at the time?) Why didn't Kaine call Desiree? Since the bus driver called it in (is this correct?), did the school follow it's own procedures? Many questions...

 

[wondering1]

I wonder about this incident, too--is there documentation that Terri had the secretary call Desiree? Wasn't Kaine with Terri--could he be the one who had the school call? (And, they weren't personally at the school at the time?) Why didn't Kaine call Desiree? Since the bus driver called it in (is this correct?), did the school follow it's own procedures? Many questions...

Good question. In the Oregonian sit-down, DY says that the school called her. She also said she asked the person from the school if "they" were "there," and was told that they were. So DY hung up with the school and called TH. All of that seemed weird to me. The only thing I can think of is that the school is obligated to call the emergency contact directly. Otherwise, what if TH/KH (or whomever) didn't notify DY, even if they said they were going to.

 

[eyes4crime]

I wonder about this incident, too--is there documentation that Terri had the secretary call Desiree? Wasn't Kaine with Terri--could he be the one who had the school call? (And, they weren't personally at the school at the time?) Why didn't Kaine call Desiree? Since the bus driver called it in (is this correct?), did the school follow it's own procedures? Many questions...

Hi! Yes, in a video Desiree tells us about the call the school made. After being told Kyron was missing and never made it home, she hung up and called Terri, who was standing there. That's verified! LE told Kaine and Terri someone had to be at home so that's where Kaine went.

Apparently Terri relayed the days events clearly to Desiree. You would think Kaine would have called her but he didn't.

Was that poor thinking under stress, protocol of the school, or just normal behavior by people who are terrified for their child? moo

 

[bessie]

Good question. In the Oregonian sit-down, DY says that the school called her. She also said she asked the person from the school if "they" were "there," and was told that they were. So DY hung up with the school and called TH. All of that seemed weird to me. The only thing I can think of is that the school is obligated to call the emergency contact directly. Otherwise, what if TH/KH (or whomever) didn't notify DY, even if they said they were going to.

That's a good point, but since Kaine obviously knew, would they be obligated to call Desiree, as well? In the case of divorced parents, is there normally a stipulation for schools to notify the non-custodial parent in the event of an emergency? I've never been divorced, so I don't know. Would a school with such lax policies about calling home for absences follow such a rule? Yeah, I'm still fuming over that one. :furious:

 

[bessie]

Hi! Yes, in a video Desiree tells us about the call the school made. After being told Kyron was missing and never made it home, she hung up and called Terri, who was standing there. That's verified! LE told Kaine and Terri someone had to be at home so that's where Kaine went.

Apparently Terri relayed the days events clearly to Desiree. You would think Kaine would have called her but he didn't.

Was that poor thinking under stress, protocol of the school, or just normal behavior by people who are terrified for their child? moo

Why didn't Desiree call Kaine? I suspect because he was running around trying to find Kyron or figure out what happened. But if Terri was standing in the office, I would think that before the school employee called DY, there would've been some discussion about whether she had been notified and who would place the call. I'm really trying to stay open minded, especially since we don't know the exact circumstances, but it does seem odd to me that DY had to call TH instead of the other way around.

 

[Donjeta]

Supposing TH had anything to do with Kyron going missing I don't find it odd at all if she didn't feel like breaking the news to DY herself. DY was instantly suspicious of her and TH might have wondered if DY could hear something in her voice and preferred a more impersonal communication.

 

[Calliope]

Good question. In the Oregonian sit-down, DY says that the school called her. She also said she asked the person from the school if "they" were "there," and was told that they were. So DY hung up with the school and called TH. All of that seemed weird to me. The only thing I can think of is that the school is obligated to call the emergency contact directly. Otherwise, what if TH/KH (or whomever) didn't notify DY, even if they said they were going to.

Maybe they were talking to police on scene and asked the secretary to call Desiree ?