Kaine tells us about Terri and PPD - what role does it play in this case, if any?

[Pensfan]

Pensfan, I am using your post to jump off of, I hope you don't mind.

I'm hoping that there is someone here that knows the distinct difference between PPD and PPP.

I don't know much about PPP. (Although I do know about PPD, it is only a personal experience where I had to have treatment after my 5th child, which lasted only 6 months approx.)

I do understand that PPD (or even general depression can run on a scale so to speak and that each individual will have simular symptoms but the severity will vary).

When we seen cases where an infant or toddler is murdered by their natural Mother it is usually attributed to PPP. Postpartum Psychosis.

I'm trying to remember where we have seen PPD instead of PPP attributed as the reason an infant or toddler were murdered.

I thought about this last night when I went to bed. There was a spate of murders of children over a few years in TX a while back. But those children were all murdered by their natural mothers who in turn were suffering from PPD (or found to be suffering from another form of psychosis).

Now, FWIW, if TH had murdered baby girl then I wouldn't have a problem with this being suggested as a possible illness for TH. (PPP).

But did TH have psychotic symptoms? How hard is it to hide psychosis from your family for 19 months? She had meds so apparently she had been seeing a doc I can assume?

I just posted this because I know there are members here that have posted about these two different illnesses in the past and I wanted to get a handle inside my own head of the probability of either of these being a factor in TH's behavior?

TIA for any insight!

Psychotic symptoms are behaviors that show that the individual is NOT in touch with reality. The symptoms can include delusions, hallucinations, paranoia, extreme mania, and etc... To be diagnosed as psychotic, an individual has to be unable to meet their daily activities/life demands and be out-of-touch with reality. Kaine and TH’s mom would clearly know if TH was psychotic. TH would have been unable to take Kyron to school that morning and act appropriately around others. Members of Terri's and Kaine's gym would also be able to tell if TH was psychotic.

TH was not psychotic. She made many rational and organized decisions that day. She fed her children breakfast, took Kyron to the science fair, supposedly ran errands, posted on the internet, talked with her rational husband, bus driver, teachers, and LE that day. No one stated that TH was disoriented and was acting paranoid, delusional, talking to voices in her head, and etc.... She was not psychotic and there are many witnesses to her non-psychotic/sane behavior.

 

[Donjeta]

Do we know what everybody who met her stated about her mental state? I haven't heard anything from the busdriver or the teachers, etc.

I don't think we have any reason to think she was psychotic because so far nobody has said anything to suggest that but just because you give your children breakfast doesn't mean that you couldn't be.

We also need to distinguish between having an acute psychotic episode or a psychotic disease. Not everyone with a psychotic diagnosis is acutely delusional or acting bizarrely all the time.

 

[Kat]

Psychotic symptoms are behaviors that show that the individual is NOT in touch with reality. The symptoms can include delusions, hallucinations, paranoia, extreme mania, and etc... To be diagnosed as psychotic, an individual has to be unable to meet their daily activities/life demands and be out-of-touch with reality. Kaine and TH’s mom would clearly know if TH was psychotic. TH would have been unable to take Kyron to school that morning and act appropriately around others. Members of Terri's and Kaine's gym would also be able to tell if TH was psychotic.

TH was not psychotic. She made many rational and organized decisions that day. She fed her children breakfast, took Kyron to the science fair, supposedly ran errands, posted on the internet, talked with her rational husband, bus driver, teachers, and LE that day. No one stated that TH was disoriented and was acting paranoid, delusional, talking to voices in her head, and etc.... She was not psychotic and there are many witnesses to her non-psychotic/sane behavior.

Thanks for the response PF. I didn't think she was psychotic either.

I also don't think that PPD causes a woman to murder a child.

PPP yes. Not PPD. Just my Humble opinion.

 

[Donjeta]

Wonder what Kaine meant by "erratic behavior".

 

[Padua]

Individuals in a psychotic episode will have to either have loose associations or a thought disorder. The best way to think of a thought disorder would be word salad.

Example:
How are you doing?

The cabbage is blue and the dog is eating the dishwasher.

They can't combine the correct words together to make a well thought out sentence.

 

[Padua]

One client of mine with childhood onset schizophrenia came in and said "Can you get the dog out of me?" This continually happened once a month and I finally figured out she was having cramps from PMS. PMS medicine helped. She just couldn't put the words together to communicate what was actually wrong with her.

 

[Padua]

Can we start a thread, I wonder? Psych issues just keep coming up in all sorts of threads, so it might be a good reference.

Don't think it would hurt.

 

[Ms Suzanne]

Untill we hear a Drs diagnosis of her not just Kaines opinion.I don't think it's really fair to her to assume what is going on.It's not fact.

 

[Padua]

I also wanted to add Depression can manifest for different reasons: hormone imbalance, chemical imbalance, Vitamin D Deficiency (that happens A LOT), thyroid problems, obesity, seizure disorder. I could go on and on.

 

[YellowSubmarine]

FWIW....

PPD has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not someone LOVES THEIR BABY. There is no stigma involved in this diagnosis at all. Many here today have admitted to having this illness, and while I personally have no experience with the symptoms, I certainly would never assume that those posters who report having gone through this did not love their children to the fullest extent.

I'm sorry my post came off wrong. What I meant was that Kaine not understanding the disease may have thought he was having to admit his wife didn't love the baby. I did not mean to say that those with PPD don't love their children! But, the taboo stigma with PPD is just that, or at least those dealing with wives with it may think.

 

[YellowSubmarine]

Kyron's parents told CNN that Terri Horman seemed to focus on herself and how she felt instead of focusing on finding Kyron.
"We were all charging ahead and doing everything we can to find our son … we had someone who was not willing to do that," Kaine Horman said.

http://www.kptv.com/news/24197226/detail.html

BBM --

It's funny, I was just watching one of the pc's where TH was clutching Kaine - she was burying herself in him, like SHE needed comforting. She seemed overly dramatic with her head in his chest and him almost holding her up, whispering, comforting her. Then, she turns to Desiree and is laying on her, almost like SHE was seeking comfort from her. Her eyes were mostly closed except for a few times you see them flutter open, almost to see if anyone is looking at her. It was like NARCISSIST was flashing in bright neon lights!

 

[Melanie]

...Horman said he’s not sure what type of medication his wife was on or when she stopped taking it

~~snip~~

He didn't know??? How can that be? Did Terri take the medication long enough? And if she stopped, was it abrupt or did she wean off slowly.

Wish we knew about this early on. I think it could have everything to do with what has happened. moo

No way -- doesn't even sound like a marriage. My husband has a list of every medication/dosage/time taken, etc, along with the dr. name. Just in case I have to go to the hospital. This is especially important for those being treated for diabetes and an irregular heart beat. Ialso keep a copy in my wallet.

If she was on meds for over a year (or thereabouts), how does he NOT know? He never picked up a script? Someone suffering from PPD should always be monitored even to make sure the meds are being taken correctly.

Ughhh....

Mel

 

[cdan]

No way -- doesn't even sound like a marriage. My husband has a list of every medication/dosage/time taken, etc, along with the dr. name. Just in case I have to go to the hospital. This is especially important for those being treated for diabetes and an irregular heart beat. Ialso keep a copy in my wallet.

If she was on meds for over a year (or thereabouts), how does he NOT know? He never picked up a script? Someone suffering from PPD should always be monitored even to make sure the meds are being taken correctly.

Ughhh....

Mel

my husband has NO CLUE what I'm on or how long I've taken things. He doesn't ask, and i don't volunteer it. Also, no, not in 19 years has he EVER picked up an Rx for me. In the event of an emergency, he would know where to locate my meds and he also knows what pharmacy I go to, but as for the specifics of what I take and why, we've NEVER discussed it.

 

[Donjeta]

Supposing she hurt Kyron somehow it makes sense for her to be self-centered regardless of diagnosis. She wouldn't need to focus on finding Kyron because she'd know where he is and might not want him found, and she would have trouble showing real concern for Kyron's parents because she would never have hurt him and hidden him in the first place if she was the least bit worried about how devastated all his loved ones are going to be.

 

[Adalena935]

BBM --

It's funny, I was just watching one of the pc's where TH was clutching Kaine - she was burying herself in him, like SHE needed comforting. She seemed overly dramatic with her head in his chest and him almost holding her up, whispering, comforting her. Then, she turns to Desiree and is laying on her, almost like SHE was seeking comfort from her. Her eyes were mostly closed except for a few times you see them flutter open, almost to see if anyone is looking at her. It was like NARCISSIST was flashing in bright neon lights!

I noticed that behavior too. She seemed like a needy little girl. Course given the circumstances I don't know how telling that is. I just posted something on another thread re; the parents pressor. They said she had been very vocal about advertising she's failed her polygraphs. Link for that;
http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20400681,00.html?xid=rss-topheadlines


and I mentioned it seemed like/similar to munchousen by proxy. I'm no shrink and I'm not saying that's the case. I believe the Mother even said she likes attention or limelight something to that affect. I've heard tell of people doing the oddest things to gain bizarre attention for themselves. Oh my I can't help but wonder what's transpiring in this case. It's scary. I wish they'd find the little boy. He's so precious.

 

[Adalena935]

Supposing she hurt Kyron somehow it makes sense for her to be self-centered regardless of diagnosis. She wouldn't need to focus on finding Kyron because she'd know where he is and might not want him found, and she would have trouble showing real concern for Kyron's parents because she would never have hurt him and hidden him in the first place if she was the least bit worried about how devastated all his loved ones are going to be.

This case Donjeta is sounding very odd to me. I don't follow all you're saying but I get most of it and who knows. It's so weird. I hope Kyron's okay but it was even hard to type that word. I'm very frightened for him. He's just a baby. Why oh why.

 

[Adalena935]

my husband has NO CLUE what I'm on or how long I've taken things. He doesn't ask, and i don't volunteer it. Also, no, not in 19 years has he EVER picked up an Rx for me. In the event of an emergency, he would know where to locate my meds and he also knows what pharmacy I go to, but as for the specifics of what I take and why, we've NEVER discussed it.

Same here for the most part.

 

[Donjeta]

I don't know what medicines my husband is on... He takes something for asthma and something to prevent migraines and occasionally something for his pain or stomach troubles but I have no clue about the brand names or the dosages. I would probably recognize the usual packaging visually but he's had several generic products that are pretty non-descript.

A spouse might not ask and another might not tell. Some people might feel that it is offensive for spouses to watch the other's medication beyond the occasional question about have you been taking the pills and are they helping. If a spouse demands to be allowed to observe the pill-taking each day and pick up the prescriptions etc. it could be seen as patronizing. Especially if someone is not willing to take their medications they may take offence if someone wants to control it. Mental health medications may be an extra sensitive issue.

 

[PoppyH]

my husband has NO CLUE what I'm on or how long I've taken things. He doesn't ask, and i don't volunteer it. Also, no, not in 19 years has he EVER picked up an Rx for me. In the event of an emergency, he would know where to locate my meds and he also knows what pharmacy I go to, but as for the specifics of what I take and why, we've NEVER discussed it.

I have IBS and take Bentyl for it, ask my hubby and he would have no clue LOL thats just , now I know what HE takes his BP meds and OTC stuff but , but as far as me he knows I take something, but not what it is

 

[eyes4crime]

Psychotic symptoms are behaviors that show that the individual is NOT in touch with reality. The symptoms can include delusions, hallucinations, paranoia, extreme mania, and etc... To be diagnosed as psychotic, an individual has to be unable to meet their daily activities/life demands and be out-of-touch with reality. Kaine and TH’s mom would clearly know if TH was psychotic. TH would have been unable to take Kyron to school that morning and act appropriately around others. Members of Terri's and Kaine's gym would also be able to tell if TH was psychotic.

TH was not psychotic. She made many rational and organized decisions that day. She fed her children breakfast, took Kyron to the science fair, supposedly ran errands, posted on the internet, talked with her rational husband, bus driver, teachers, and LE that day. No one stated that TH was disoriented and was acting paranoid, delusional, talking to voices in her head, and etc.... She was not psychotic and there are many witnesses to her non-psychotic/sane behavior.

Hi there Pensfan! I didn't see reports of Terri being disorganized in her thinking or any evidence that she was out of touch with reality. What I do know is that Terri was diagnosed with PPD and if not treated properly PPD can become a depression with psychotic features.

We know from Kaine that Terri was diagnosed with PPD. If we knew what medications she was on we would know if psychosis was a problem. Meds such as Risperdal would give us insight as to how serious her PPD was. Not seeing psychosis, suicidal and homicidal ideation can often mean good control with medication. If the meds are stopped too soon, we will see symptoms return, I see it over and over.

The only way that psychosis (PPP) would have played a part at 18 months post partum is if Terri was being treated and fell of her med regimen. Manual of Mental Disorders: DSM-IV-TR. is vague regarding PPP and we don't know if she was seeing a doctor who used DSM rather than his/her own experience. As time goes by, and postpartum is no longer obvious, a diagnose of major depression with psychotic features could be given.

We don't know if physical illnesses such as hypothyroidism was ruled out but we can all hope she was treated properly.

The technicalities of diagnosing often get in the way of good treatment moo mho