Knowing all you know today about this case who do you think really killed JonBenet?

[jobo]

I thought that comment was odd, but I also think it was true. I really think PR would cover for him, but I don't think he would cover for her....maybe his son, but not PR.

And.....I have a really hard time believing an intruder got in the house undetected. Who would take that chance? I hear of children being abducted, but strangers don't usually come in and take your child to the basement and kill her while everyone else sleeps. Like was just mentioned, the house was NOT a mansion....it wasn't that big.
My opinion only.

 

[txsvicki]

He sure seemed to love his material posessions and business and might protect that thinking Patsy would be dead in a few years anyway since she really was not miraculously healed, but just had cancer supressed.

 

[midwest mama]

He sure seemed to love his material posessions and business and might protect that thinking Patsy would be dead in a few years anyway since she really was not miraculously healed, but just had cancer supressed.

The ONLY reason he wouldn't have turned on Patsy is because she had something on him. :moo: Wonder what that could have been? Suppose Dr. Meyer figured it out?

 

[UKGuy]

He sure seemed to love his material posessions and business and might protect that thinking Patsy would be dead in a few years anyway since she really was not miraculously healed, but just had cancer supressed.

txsvicki,
So if its JDI, what has Patsy to lose by pointing the finger at John?


.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

Sorry for off topic but good God am I mad!
I was just searching for something and came across some news re Michael Peterson being Released From Prison dec 2011 and Getting a New Trial.
WTH is wrong with this world lately???????? :banghead:

All this BS re the justice system lately makes me think JB will NEVER get justice.....I am so mad,should have stayed away from these topics.....

sorry once again for being off topic but nothing makes sense these days anymore...

When I read the book about Micheal Peterson, my first thought was that lightening doesn't strike twice in the same place that often, and what are the chances of two women in your life ending up dead in about the same way on two different continents?

No this is like Jeff MacDonald. Just another chicken sh## who killed someone who loved them and wants to whine that they are one that that are wronged.

 

[midwest mama]

I'm not so sure John didn't suspect Patsy. In one of their media interviews (don't remember which one) he was answering questions about a spouse killing a child. He answered as if talking to a spouse " you kill my my child, I don't love you anymore". It may have been the same interview as mentioned above. I wanted to find it to see if Patsy had any sort of facial clues at all as he spoke.

Linguistically, this statement sure sounds like those contingencies in the ransom note about 'you do this',' she dies'. In all the examples, the statement is phrased with an action producing a negative result, and they are stated clearly and succinctly. JMO

 

[dodie20]

Linguistically, this statement sure sounds like those contingencies in the ransom note about 'you do this',' she dies'. In all the examples, the statement is phrased with an action producing a negative result, and they are stated clearly and succinctly. JMO

yes, for reasons like this, it's impossible to rule JR out as the author of the ransom note. I read an interview where he said something like, (loosely paraphrased 'even if we find the killer and he confesses, 30% of the population will still think we had something to do with this'. I don't remember the exact percent he used, but I was surprised to see him use percentages in every day speak. moo

 

[UKGuy]

JR SAID he wanted to go back down to the basement to check for points of entry by an intruder, and stated in several sources that he went in to the Train Room to look around. The Train Room was closer to the bottom of the stairwell than the Wine Cellar was, and it falls into place easily he could claim to have gone into the Train Room as a starting point of his search.

In DOA, published in 2000, JR said "That entry point needs to be looked at...the pane is still broken and the window is open, with a large old Samsonite suitcase sitting under it. Odd, I think. This doesn't look right. This suitcase is not normally kept here.

Then in 2001, during a deposition he gave in a civil trial, he said this:
Questioned as to why he went to the basement, John states: 'I was trying to determine how someone could have gotten into our house.' He had a vague recollection of mentioning the broken window to Detective Arndt, but had explained his earlier summer entry to the house.

FW had told officers about finding the broken window (Kolar book, pg 84) that morning. If JR would have then told Arndt about it again, after his trip down, I think Arndt herself would have at least wanted to inspect that window. :moo: And there was never an account of that.

JB was not found in the Train Room. Her body was in the Wine Cellar.

JR, the owner of the house, one of the few people who even knew the WC room was there, since it was in the farthest corner of his house, only talks about checking out the Train Room, looking for an intruder point of entry, and did so during a time he 'slipped away' from the group upstairs. He never reported checking through any of the other rooms for anything that would be telltale of an intruder. Yet, Arndt noticed his demeanor to be changed when he returned from the basement. Just from looking over a window?

midwest mama,
Exactly.

In DOA, published in 2000, JR said "That entry point needs to be looked at...the pane is still broken and the -->window is open<--, with a large old Samsonite suitcase sitting under it. Odd, I think. This doesn't look right. This suitcase is not normally kept here.

John is still telling us what nobody else had observed, he was agitated because his staging had failed, and police officers were leaving.

Its part of the R's version of events, just like putting JonBenet to sleep!


.

 

[midwest mama]

midwest mama,
Exactly.


John is still telling us what nobody else had observed, he was agitated because his staging had failed, and police officers were leaving.

Its part of the R's version of events, just like putting JonBenet to sleep!


.

Yep, Yep, and Yep. I reckon we're on the same page. Hope you checked out my post #308 on the "Known Rope" thread. I'm not sure just when Burke came innocently onto the scene, but I think he would have had to in order for JR to convince Patsy he had killed JB. It's the only thing that allows any opportunity to Patsy to help with the ransom note, the staging, and fight like a mother bear to keep Burke out of the limelight. Burke had emotional/psychological disorders at that time which lent themselves perfectly to JR passing the blame onto him, and also to enabling Burke to receive the care and further help he would need to be assured he did not 'see or remember' anything remotely near to what had actually happened.

From what I read, Patsy passed the lie detectors, but John's came up saying he wasn't divulging all he knew??? But the questions were worded somehow so they never came out and asked them if they killed JB?? I'll have to dig around more on that.

I don't think Patsy ever had a clue about JR. She was blindsided by her 'queen Patsy' life with JR, her illness, her faith in the Lord, and her desire to have a fairy tale ending. JR had her so pumped up for the holidays - giving her several high dollar birthday gifts, a new Christmas trip with the 'other' kids that would require more of her time and effort, that her head was spinning.

We all know about the RST damage control group. Again, JR at his finest, protecting dear wife, so she would have every opportunity to stay clear of harm. Deflection once again.

I can hardly keep myself from screaming sitting here in my own house to think of what that man has done.

 

[UKGuy]

Yep, Yep, and Yep. I reckon we're on the same page. Hope you checked out my post #308 on the "Known Rope" thread. I'm not sure just when Burke came innocently onto the scene, but I think he would have had to in order for JR to convince Patsy he had killed JB. It's the only thing that allows any opportunity to Patsy to help with the ransom note, the staging, and fight like a mother bear to keep Burke out of the limelight. Burke had emotional/psychological disorders at that time which lent themselves perfectly to JR passing the blame onto him, and also to enabling Burke to receive the care and further help he would need to be assured he did not 'see or remember' anything remotely near to what had actually happened.

From what I read, Patsy passed the lie detectors, but John's came up saying he wasn't divulging all he knew??? But the questions were worded somehow so they never came out and asked them if they killed JB?? I'll have to dig around more on that.

I don't think Patsy ever had a clue about JR. She was blindsided by her 'queen Patsy' life with JR, her illness, her faith in the Lord, and her desire to have a fairy tale ending. JR had her so pumped up for the holidays - giving her several high dollar birthday gifts, a new Christmas trip with the 'other' kids that would require more of her time and effort, that her head was spinning.

We all know about the RST damage control group. Again, JR at his finest, protecting dear wife, so she would have every opportunity to stay clear of harm. Deflection once again.

I can hardly keep myself from screaming sitting here in my own house to think of what that man has done.

midwest mama,
Yes, I agree it appears John played a bigger role in the staging than first seems. More so if he wrote the ransom note with PR embellishing it, what a nice insight that is, who would have thought?

.

 

[OpenMind4U]

midwest mama,
Yes, I agree it appears John played a bigger role in the staging than first seems. More so if he wrote the ransom note with PR embellishing it, what a nice insight that is, who would have thought?

.

It's very possible that JR plays some role in 'staging'. But I cannot see and believe that both R's wrote this RN. But the most important, I cannot separate the RN from all other aspects of this crime.

IMO, JBR murder screams of pathological sickness in every aspect of it:
- head blow = uncontrollable rage!;
- strangulation = heartless, meaningless, disattachment action of the 'sick' mind;
- acute sexual injury = if done by an adult then perverted/revengefull behavior; if done by the child then escalated sexual pervertion and curiosity; and finally...
- Ransom Note = the result of bizzare mix of confussed mind; between the childish rambling and adult on the 'drug' effect...

Except of the RN, all of the above elements of this crime could be explained by involvement of multiple personalities. Meanning, possibility of more than one person were involved OR one person with the true and UGLY psychological disorder. However, the only RN was driven by one MIND not two!...I could agree in possibility that someone else suggest the 'idea' of 'kidnapping' hence, ransom note...but IMHO, the RN was written by one and only one person!... ...JMO

 

[Whaleshark]

However, the only RN was driven by one MIND not two!...I could agree in possibility that someone else suggest the 'idea' of 'kidnapping' hence, ransom note...but IMHO, the RN was written by one and only one person!... ...JMO

Open Mind.... let me ask you this:

1) Have you ever looked at any samples of John's handwriting? In detail? Repeatedly?

2) Did you do my suggestion of taking the enlarged ransom note in my other post, and enlarging it to 400%?

I'm not uncertain about this, Open Mind, and rarely am I definitive about anything on this case at all, because if it's one thing you and I are both known for, it's being open-minded about this case.... but look, I wish we could all get in a room or do a WebEx or something where we can all view someone's screen while the person is presenting -- I could show you the outline of the original underlying handwriting. Openmind, the small, underlying, handwriting is there.

Now whether he did his own disguising on top of his original handwriting, I'm not 100%, but because the letters look like hers as well, I think what happened is he did the first draft, and she went and changed all the letters on top. If you go and enlarge the pic - if you have Windows, and you have the zoom in your lower right corner of your explorer window, you can simply choose 400%... or however you zoom in your screen view.... you will see how most letters are written over, extended, or otherwise altered -- hooks, tops of a's added, I think even the 'Gs' were John's original smooshed capital G's and she made them small by adding the hook and writing over them. John's handwriting is very small and smooshed. His little r's are very small. Almost every r you can see where the original r is, if you know what you are looking for, and see where it has been extended....if you are in an enlarged enough mode.

Openmind, it's there.

I promise I wouldn't be this serious about something otherwise.... give it a try -- at least for me, ok?

If you aren't familiar with John's handwriting though, you may not be able to discern the difference.

I may have to do the work for you, but I'm willing to, because knowing that they both wrote the note makes a difference in understanding the truth.

 

[OpenMind4U]

Open Mind.... let me ask you this:

1) Have you ever looked at any samples of John's handwriting? In detail? Repeatedly?

2) Did you do my suggestion of taking the enlarged ransom note in my other post, and enlarging it to 400%?

I'm not uncertain about this, Open Mind, and rarely am I definitive about anything on this case at all, because if it's one thing you and I are both known for, it's being open-minded about this case.... but look, I wish we could all get in a room or do a WebEx or something where we can all view someone's screen while the person is presenting -- I could show you the outline of the original underlying handwriting. Openmind, the small, underlying, handwriting is there.

Now whether he did his own disguising on top of his original handwriting, I'm not 100%, but because the letters look like hers as well, I think what happened is he did the first draft, and she went and changed all the letters on top. If you go and enlarge the pic - if you have Windows, and you have the zoom in your lower right corner of your explorer window, you can simply choose 400%... or however you zoom in your screen view.... you will see how most letters are written over, extended, or otherwise altered -- hooks, tops of a's added, I think even the 'Gs' were John's original smooshed capital G's and she made them small by adding the hook and writing over them. John's handwriting is very small and smooshed. His little r's are very small. Almost every r you can see where the original r is, if you know what you are looking for, and see where it has been extended....if you are in an enlarged enough mode.

Openmind, it's there.

I promise I wouldn't be this serious about something otherwise.... give it a try -- at least for me, ok?

If you aren't familiar with John's handwriting though, you may not be able to discern the difference.

I may have to do the work for you, but I'm willing to, because knowing that they both wrote the note makes a difference in understanding the truth.

OK, dear. I do promiss - I will go over these letters again, one by one, with an open mind. I will reply to your post shortly. Meanwhile, please read post #128 on FFJ by KoldKase....I always believe that Ramsey family (adults and children) has a lot of psyhological problems...(I'll address this later as well).

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10148&page=11

 

[Flatlander]

OK, dear. I do promiss - I will go over these letters again, one by one, with an open mind. I will reply to your post shortly. Meanwhile, please read post #128 on FFJ by KoldKase....I always believe that Ramsey family (adults and children) has a lot of psyhological problems...(I'll address this later as well).

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10148&page=11

KoldKase knows what is going on. I knew I had watched on tv an interview with JR stating that BR had been seeing a psychologist. Finally I found it, here it is:
http://www.andersoncooper.com/2012/03/14/burke-ramsey-jonbenet-ramsey-suspect-in-her-murder/

Notice how JR shifts in his seat and him and haws about the situation. Licking his lips. I would say he is a tad nervous answering this question.

I have often also heard that PR knew that BR and JB were playing doctor and tried keeping them apart for this reason at the time of/or close to JB death.
Like I said on another thread: It is extremely hard for me to see how a parent could be so brutal to their child. I know it happens but the insanity that it would involve to go through with it all is well ... more than I comprehend.

As for the RN, it very well could have been written by them both. JR handed PR tablet over to the police just pretty as you please.

 

[Whaleshark]

OK, dear. I do promiss - I will go over these letters again, one by one, with an open mind. I will reply to your post shortly. Meanwhile, please read post #128 on FFJ by KoldKase....I always believe that Ramsey family (adults and children) has a lot of psyhological problems...(I'll address this later as well).

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10148&page=11

Just read it..... Very interesting..., I'm right there with ya. As you know, I definitely entertain a BDI scenario.

And this to me would make sense with them both covering up for Burke together...

As usual, I consider each possibility, and am partially through the Kolar book...

I also read some of the posted parts of that new book listed on Amazon that Cynic pointed out today... Very interesting.

I read Forums for Justice, by the way, regularly... Just can't post there either and it's highly frustrating, because I want to respond and participate in the discussion, but I can't... So I just move back over here anyway.

 

[OpenMind4U]

Open Mind.... let me ask you this:

1) Have you ever looked at any samples of John's handwriting? In detail? Repeatedly?

2) Did you do my suggestion of taking the enlarged ransom note in my other post, and enlarging it to 400%?

I'm not uncertain about this, Open Mind, and rarely am I definitive about anything on this case at all, because if it's one thing you and I are both known for, it's being open-minded about this case.... but look, I wish we could all get in a room or do a WebEx or something where we can all view someone's screen while the person is presenting -- I could show you the outline of the original underlying handwriting. Openmind, the small, underlying, handwriting is there.

Now whether he did his own disguising on top of his original handwriting, I'm not 100%, but because the letters look like hers as well, I think what happened is he did the first draft, and she went and changed all the letters on top. If you go and enlarge the pic - if you have Windows, and you have the zoom in your lower right corner of your explorer window, you can simply choose 400%... or however you zoom in your screen view.... you will see how most letters are written over, extended, or otherwise altered -- hooks, tops of a's added, I think even the 'Gs' were John's original smooshed capital G's and she made them small by adding the hook and writing over them. John's handwriting is very small and smooshed. His little r's are very small. Almost every r you can see where the original r is, if you know what you are looking for, and see where it has been extended....if you are in an enlarged enough mode.

Openmind, it's there.

I promise I wouldn't be this serious about something otherwise.... give it a try -- at least for me, ok?

If you aren't familiar with John's handwriting though, you may not be able to discern the difference.

I may have to do the work for you, but I'm willing to, because knowing that they both wrote the note makes a difference in understanding the truth.

Dear Whaleshark,

As promissed, I did analyze the letters as you suggested and compared them to JR handwriting. I need to emphasize couple things upfront: I'm NOT an expert in handwriting. I see some 'similarities' of PR and JR handwriting letters. In regards of hooks, I see them in 'y' letters a lot...however, I cannot make the valid deduction because I don't know how much destortion the monitor's 'pixels'/resolution plays while enlarging the document. I would assume that the right way to examine any document is to enlarge it using the powerfull lences of the microscope, not through computer's application. JMO. I could be wrong of course. Secondly, I'm not 'detail'-oriented person. I can see the trees but only from the view of the forest...So, by admitting my limitation, I would like to share with you the small portion of what I 'see' in RN.

'YOUR DAUGHTER IN OUR POSESSION'

It's a Christmas time, when family gathering is the common time of year. JR has two daughters, Malinda and JonBenet. Ramsey house has bedrooms for all JR childrens, including JAR and Malinda. JR in close contact with his children from prior marriage. Only close friends and family knew that JR oldest children are not visiting him on Christmas, in Boulder. JR was planning to see them next day, making the small 'detour' prior celebrating PR B-day by flying out of town to meet them outside of the Boulder.

So, at the minimum, whoever wrote RN knew that Melinda didn't come to visit Ramsey in Boulder. However, IMHO if JR would write RN he would write 'At this time we have JonBenet in our...'. He would never write just 'daughter' because in his (FATHER) mind he has two of them!...therefore, it's very strange to me that both of Ramseys's (Patsy and John) never assumed that RN could referenced Malinda! Only PR was making some stupid attempt by saying something in regards to Beth who's already long gone prior 1996. So, the use of the words 'your daughter' makes the first 'red flag' to me.

Now, let's talk about 'our posession'. This is the second 'red flag'. And here is why...

As a matter of fact, usually, the blind person can hear extremely well. Also, in abusive relationship, the abused person is very much successfull and strong at work (outside of the marriage). In another words, the human nature has the tendency to compensate the wickness by developing the strong side in something else; creating the 'natural balance'. Where I'm going with it?...JR psychological profile in regards of 'posession'.

JR is pretty strong and successfull person at work, achivements and learning skills in life (outside of the marriage). He's absolutely weak with woman. We should read carefully what he said about himself during his interviews. He had an affair for 2 years but couldn't properly ended that 'wrong' relationship. What is telling to you when the grown-up man need to hide behind the door of his new love interest to avoid the confrontation with his old lover? JR didn't ended his first marriage. His first wife did, after finding about the affair. According to JR, the problem with his first marriage was because his ex-wife didn't treat him as the 'friend'...but more like a mother. I'm wondering if JR ever knew the meaning of the 'friend'. Looks like he never was THE friend to his ex or to his lover or even to Patsy!...The family value was never JR 'posession'. Raising children wasn't his 'posession' either. JR is very seldom at home. Remember what gardener said in regards of JonBenet's reaction about JR absence (PMPT)?...JB was genuinely crying, missing her father, wishing he'll be home more often...So, IMHO, if JR would write RN he would NEVER use the word 'posession' in the reference to his daughter or his wife or his friend...JR as the man and the family 'posession' are opposite meaning of each other.

I can write and write what I see in RN....but don't want to 'rain on your parade'...I could be absolutely wrong...We all see different things and comes to different conclusion...therefore, I love and appreciate this side...I'm learning to 'agree to disagree'. Sometimes it's hard...but I still learning

Sorry, IMO, JR didn't write this RN.

 

[Whaleshark]

I think you've officially surpassed me in earning DocG's presumption of someone over analyzing the ransom note .... Assuming that is possible, of course.

... But I have to appreciate your level of effort although I don't agree completely with you either.

We are where we are. I think a lot of us are finding we agree with some aspects of others' points, but not all.... And so the discussion goes on...

 

[OpenMind4U]

I think you've officially surpassed me in earning DocG's presumption of someone over analyzing the ransom note .... Assuming that is possible, of course. ... But I have to appreciate your level of effort although I don't agree completely with you either.

We are where we are. I think a lot of us are finding we agree with some aspects of others' points, but not all.... And so the discussion goes on...

:woohoo:...I would take this as the compliment, considering that DocG has a Master Degree in over analyzing himself.......but his grammar is way superb than mine....

 

[Chrishope]

Dear Whaleshark,

As promissed, I did analyze the letters as you suggested and compared them to JR handwriting. I need to emphasize couple things upfront: I'm NOT an expert in handwriting. I see some 'similarities' of PR and JR handwriting letters. In regards of hooks, I see them in 'y' letters a lot...however, I cannot make the valid deduction because I don't know how much destortion the monitor's 'pixels'/resolution plays while enlarging the document. I would assume that the right way to examine any document is to enlarge it using the powerfull lences of the microscope, not through computer's application. JMO. I could be wrong of course. Secondly, I'm not 'detail'-oriented person. I can see the trees but only from the view of the forest...So, by admitting my limitation, I would like to share with you the small portion of what I 'see' in RN.

'YOUR DAUGHTER IN OUR POSESSION'

It's a Christmas time, when family gathering is the common time of year. JR has two daughters, Malinda and JonBenet. Ramsey house has bedrooms for all JR childrens, including JAR and Malinda. JR in close contact with his children from prior marriage. Only close friends and family knew that JR oldest children are not visiting him on Christmas, in Boulder. JR was planning to see them next day, making the small 'detour' prior celebrating PR B-day by flying out of town to meet them outside of the Boulder.

Anyone watching the house would know that his children from a prior marriage were not visiting. (Not that I believe anyone was watching the house)

So, at the minimum, whoever wrote RN knew that Melinda didn't come to visit Ramsey in Boulder.

Or didn't know of Melinda's existence.

However, IMHO if JR would write RN he would write 'At this time we have JonBenet in our...'.

If he wrote JonBenet then he'd be showing that the kidnappers knew the girl's name. Are they supposed to know her name?

He would never write just 'daughter' because in his (FATHER) mind he has two of them!...therefore, it's very strange to me that both of Ramseys's (Patsy and John) never assumed that RN could referenced Malinda! Only PR was making some stupid attempt by saying something in regards to Beth who's already long gone prior 1996. So, the use of the words 'your daughter' makes the first 'red flag' to me.

What's strange about it? JBR lived in the house where the RN was found. The obvious implication is that the note refers to her, not to Melinda. If the kidapper had taken Melinda, but left a note in CO rather than Atalanta, then he'd have referred to Melinda by name. Wtih the note saying "your daughter" the implication is that it's the daughter living in the house with JR, in CO.

 

[UKGuy]

Anyone watching the house would know that his children from a prior marriage were not visiting. (Not that I believe anyone was watching the house)

Or didn't know of Melinda's existence.

If he wrote JonBenet then he'd be showing that the kidnappers knew the girl's name. Are they supposed to know her name?

What's strange about it? JBR lived in the house where the RN was found. The obvious implication is that the note refers to her, not to Melinda. If the kidapper had taken Melinda, but left a note in CO rather than Atalanta, then he'd have referred to Melinda by name. Wtih the note saying "your daughter" the implication is that it's the daughter living in the house with JR, in CO.

Chrishope,

What's strange about it? JBR lived in the house where the RN was found. The obvious implication is that the note refers to her, not to Melinda. If the kidapper had taken Melinda, but left a note in CO rather than Atalanta, then he'd have referred to Melinda by name. Wtih the note saying "your daughter" the implication is that it's the daughter living in the house with JR, in CO.

I agree. Both daughters would have to be present for any problem in interpretation to arise.

If Whaleshark's observations regarding the RN can be substantiated then we have another point in the case where the Ramsey's colluded in the staging.

There is already forensic evidence suggesting both the version of events and the wine-cellar are other areas where collusion can be demonstrated!


.