Knowing all you know today about this case who do you think really killed JonBenet?

[Afterimage]

Thank you all for answering the questions I presented!

You all make good points and any of them are possible. That is what is so mind boggling.

So...I believe that JBR and BR never did go to bed that night after they got home from the Whites. After a full day of playing and the excitement of Christmas, I think they would have crashed out if they went to bed. (I am thinking back to when I was that age).

When they got home between 930 and 10 pm, they ate pineapple. I'd say sometime between 10 pm and 1030 pm the head blow happened. I think it was right before they were expected to go to bed. Why would Patsy let them stay up any later than it already was, if they were planning on getting up early for their trip to Michigan the next day?

So...assuming the head blow occurred around 1030 pm...Patsy must have heard the commotion as she was probably getting some last minute things ready for the trip the next day.

What happens next is that she notices that JB is unconscious on the floor and Burke is there with the object. (Baseball bat, flashlight or whatever). She has no idea at this point the seriousness of the injury, because there is no blood. She probably thinks and hopes that JB will come to after awhile, so she waits. Within the first minutes of this wait period, she makes BR go to bed and wakes up JR. He comes down and they try to revive her. After about an hour or two, they realize she is getting worse and now appears to have died. So this is when Patsy puts the Garotte on in order to stage it as a strangulation, not realizing that JB actually is still clinging to life. The ligature actually ends her life, even though she would have died from the brain swelling over the next couple hours. After this Patsy and John stage the crime scene for the rest of the night and PR writes the ransom note. (Or if Patsy didn't wake up JR, she carries all this out on her own).

I don't think any sexual abuse occurred that night, except for the staging of sexual abuse with the garotte handle. They were trying to cover up any prior sexual abuse with the garotte handle to make it look like an intruder did the sexual abuse. They wiped her thighs down with a cloth before putting her in the WC.

However, if Patsy thought that JB was dead right after the headblow, then she would have done the staging with the garotte shortly after 1030 pm, and after sending BR to bed. I don't think this happened though, and there was a time span between the headblow and the application of the garotte.

One last thing. Say that JB ate the pineapple at 10 pm. The headblow occurs around 1030 pm. Would her digestive track still be functioning after this traumatic head injury? Would it continue to move the pineapple from her stomach to her small intestine by the time her death occurred around midnight? The pineapple was found in her small intestine and had already passed through the stomach. I know (from my medical studies) that fruit does pass through the stomach quicker than say a piece of steak. 2 hours (from 10 pm to midnight) does seem plausible.

Comments??????? Thanks Much!!

 

[midwest mama]

AfterImage - Your theory flows with as much credibility as many others. My own thoughts would have to be to flip the parent involvement from JR to PR for a few reasons:

The size of the spoon in the pineapple bowl indicates it might have been a man or a kid that got the snack ready. Patsy would have used the correct serving spoon.

The 'scream' that was reported, and though discounted by some, if not coming from JB could have come from Patsy when she observed JB's condition.

I simply cannot imagine Patsy tightening the cord, though I could accept her knealing over and touching JB all about the head, etc, as JR prepared and tightened the ligature.

And I truly believe JR had the most influence, along with Patsy's journalistic
contributions, on the note. He could stay calm enough to create the kidnapping process. I think she would have been too bonkers to have done much else except edit and contribute some of the senseless jibberish at the end of the note.

All totally :moo:

P.S. WELCOME to the Forum Family!

 

[OpenMind4U]

Afterimage, like MM said, we all have our own theory and every theory has some kind of flaw...Your theory could be possible. The main flaw for me in your theory is this statement:

I don't think any sexual abuse occurred that night, except for the staging of sexual abuse with the garotte handle. They were trying to cover up any prior sexual abuse with the garotte handle to make it look like an intruder did the sexual abuse. They wiped her thighs down with a cloth before putting her in the WC.

IMO, in above highlighted sentence, you proposed two contradicted 'staging' reasons.

- parents trying to cover up any prior sexual abuse;
- to make it look like an intruder did the sexual abuse.

Why contradicting? Because the wiping blood and redressing JBR would makes sense in the first but not in the second argument. Agree?

But let's talk about the first argument. How the person who pocked JB vagina with paintbrush could know that the prior chronic injuries have been successfully covered with this one-time pock?! Just because it's draw the blood? How he/she knows what caused this blood to appear: broken hymen or some other injured parts of vagina?

Now, let's talk about the second argument. If you agree that wiping/redressing makes no sense in 'intruder' sexual abuse then why paintbrush was used??? Looks like 'intruder' is extrimely TORTURES person, isn't? In addition, this 'intruder' has pretty good knowledge about the method of the prior sexual abuse: digital penetration! So, why use the same method in 'staging'?

To me it's saying a lot: the person who did the chronic injury - did the paintbrush injury. And it was NOT 'staging'. JM very strong O

P.S... and I'm sorry for repeating the same argument on this forum for so many times....You just happens to have the new fresh ears...

 

[Chrishope]

A blow from a golf club or baseball bat, powerful enough to crack open her skull like that, would certainly have lacerated the scalp and produced loads of external bleeding. But none was found. The bleeding was strictly internal, which is why the hard rubber Maglite was considered the most likely weapon. It's hard to imagine that Burke could have produced such a massive wound with a single blow from a Maglite. That's not the way children fight anyhow. If she'd been killed by a series of head blows, produced, say, by banging her head against a radiator or a concrete floor, that would be consistent with the possibility that Burke could have done it. But there was no evidence of that sort. She was felled with a single blow to the back of the head.

There is simply no evidence consistent with Burke as JonBenet's killer. Nor is there any reason to assume both Patsy and John would go to such extreme (and disgusting) lengths to cover for him in any case.

I should have been clearer. I think BDI is complete nonsense. I'm not in any way saying it was Burke, in the basement, with the golf club. I guess my answer did seem to imply that.

What I am saying is this - if one wants to consider that BR caused the skull fracture, one necessarily needs to consider what the weapon was.

IMO BR could not cause the skull fracture with the Maglite. The reason is not that the Maglite itself couldn't be the weapon, it could be. (But other things could be as well) The reason is the Maglite is not long enough for BR to get enough leverage to apply enough force to make an 8.5" crack in the skull. IOWs I don't think BR could swing it hard enough to do that kind of damage.

For someone of BR's size and strength it would be necessary to get more leverage - quite literally, a longer lever. He might be able to apply the necessary force with a golf club. Or a fireplace poker. Or a baseball bat. Whether these objects would cause scalp lacerations, I don't know.

We can also split the difference. If the lever is shorter, the instrument has to be heavier. Thus a standard carpentry hammer might do the trick. Though I'd think this would apply the force to a much smaller area, centered at the face of the hammer.

I guess the main point is -for those wishing to imagine BR as the one who causes the skull fracture, one needs to consider how a not quite 10 year old could apply enough force to crack the skull 8.5". The maglight lacks the weight and leverage, in the hands of a boy. If the Maglite is the weapon, BR is not the striker. For BR to be the striker, it's necessary that the weapon was longer and probably heavier than the flashlight.

I agree that the Ramseys would not implicate themselves in the murder of their daughter in order to "cover" for BR who was after all facing absolutely no charges of any sort. Even if they didn't know that he was facing no charges, one phone call would have provided all the answers needed.

BDI is the "everything including the kitchen sink" theory.

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy, please allow me to say why NOT John. Again, JMO based on the intensive research on male pedophiles (horrible topic!). Child molestation is the SICKNESS which cannot JUST one-time happens and disappeares! The molester has NO CONTROL to stop this sickness without intervention from an experts (long-term treatment requires!). Especially, in adults male.

By statistics, adult male after 40 has already HISTORY of child molestation way back to his youth age. By statistics, one-time child molestation DID NOT happens by male 40 years old. Therefore, without proof of JR's prior history of child molestation - JR is not JBR molester!!!

Furthermore, if you read ST book, you'll see why police took time to talk to Malinda about possible sexual abuse as well as to his ex-wife and his ex-lover (who had the child at that time) and child molestation was the subject of their discussion. Granted, I didn't read the transcripts from interview with his ex-wife and ex-lover but I have no doubts that this topic was discussed.

jmo

OpenMind4U,
What you write sounds reasonable to me. Yet here in the UK, in the last week, a sixties icon, national hero, a childrens charity fundraiser, presenter of Top of The Pops, has, allegedly been revealed as a pedophile.

It simply might be that, historically, until the nexus of pageants, millionare status, the Paughs, Patsy, Cancer, and JonBenet, John had not molested anyone?

Anyway consider the digit as an abstract tool, JonBenet may have been penetrated to obscure prior abuse, but it does not follow that the penetrator was the prior abuser.

Which might find some agreement with your opinion?


.

 

[DIRK SCHILLER]

And from dodie20 on another thread:
In this case, if I understand the evidence, JB was digitally penetrated, so it doesn't seem like an adult male rapist was responsible. What kind of pedophile ring, would combine digital penetration with head bashing, and then murder the victim?
--------------------------------------------------
Not a pedo ring, but a pedophile (an adult, more probably male, in this case) can and often does use varying degrees of molestation which do not include penile penetration, and also may murder his victim.

WARNING!! THE INFORMATION BELOW IS SEXUALLY EXPLICIT, AND MAY BE DISTURBING TO SOME - PROCEED ONLY IF YOU CONSIDER IT IS POSTED AS INFORMATION TO SUPPORT THIS CASE, AND FOR NO OTHER INTENT AND PURPOSE!

The following information has been snipped from this page:
http://www.ipce.info/library_3/files/psvg_81_en.htm

- Many sexual contacts between adults and children do not have to result in any damage, and there are also sexual contacts which are pleasant and valued by the child. Unfortunately damaging things do occur, and we do not deny that.
- Often when people hear the word, they identify pedophilia with the sexual abuse of children by adults. Adults who sexually abuse children cause damage to children.
- Pedophile persons do exactly the same things with children as other adults do, except that sometimes sexual relations occur in addition. Pedophile persons want to express their feelings for children, in physical ways as well. Thus, especially in the case of young children, sexual activity seldom includes any kind of sexual penetration. Children are not yet physically big enough for this. An adult male who introduces his penis into the vagina of a girl or the anus of a boy will usually cause the child pain. For this reason alone pedophiles normally don't try.
- What then do they do? They talk to each other, laugh together, play together and so on. Children and pedophiles also make love to one another. They hug and cuddle each other, they let each other see their sex organs. -
- Pedophiles also masturbate their little friends or masturbate while their little friends watch, or they engage in mutual masturbation with them.
- Usually the partners in a pedophile relationship have known one another some length of time before they have sexual contact. They often live close to one another in the same neighborhood. The adult partner is sometimes a friend of the child's parents, or even a member of the family.
- Very, very seldom does a pedophile commit murder. When it does happen, it is often out of fear that his or her pedophile contact will be discovered. Many crimes are committed out of fear of being caught and punished

And, we must also consider this information from this page:
http://www.lucidpages.com/family.html

A thorough evaluation of an incestuous family may reveal several frequent traits:
- Siblings may have very different interests (music versus sports or politics).
- Siblings may exhibit unjustifiable rivalry, quarreling and dislike of each other.
- Children or parents have an exceptional talent for music, singing, math, sports, science.
- Children or parents are addicted to one activity that takes all their time.
- Children or parents are well-developed only in one area (art or sports or science).
- One child is psychologically very different from the rest of the family.
- The whole family is deeply religious.
- The family has many children.
- Emotional intimacy is nonexistent and is replaced by kissing and sexual touch.
- Intrafamilial sexual education of adolescents is nonexistent.
- Children associate only with a specific parent or sibling (often with the abuser).
- Parents have very different education or social status (housewife vs senator).
- The father is a tyrant, demands strict discipline, and decides all aspects of family life.
- The family lives in chaos, and the parents do not care about their many children.
- "Highly functioning parents" always put their interests before those of the child.
- One or both parents are perfectionists and demand the same from the child.
- The parents are driven to be socially recognized.
- The family (clan) has many compulsory gatherings involving even distant relatives.
- The parents are constantly driven to do activities, see things, or go to places.
- The family expresses its cohesion through gifts, but lacks quality time and affection.
- In general, the parents have a twisted sense of priorities.
- The parents heavily invest in building of a social facade of normalcy.
- The father cares more about friends and strangers than his family.
- The parents are strong nationalists or strong supporters of a political party.
- The parents were married multiple times.
- A child is at a particular risk of abuse when parents try to harm each other or stop having sex.
- The father may rationalize his decision to engage in sex with his daughter and blame his wife for her unavailability. Her sexual absence is in his mind a sufficient reason to have sex with the daughter. He needs sex; he must have it, and if the wife does not give it to him, he will get it otherwise. He believes that it is his natural right.

Sorry for the length of this post, but with regard to the doubt about a male adult molester, it seems to me that digital penetration should easily be considered a part of the process, and the molester could be considered a pedophile. Though in this case, incest is most likely a parallel affiliation.
This crime came as a result of a damaged psychopathic mind, so allows for ANY process and extent of sexual molestation.

sorry, I do totally,respecfully disagreed, all pedos are unfortunately rapists, sex sicks and fathers had even children with their daughters and/or use the kids for child *advertiser censored*,I´ve read,heard of them having sex with their children,even the pedos abductors/kidnappers had sexually abused them and then killed them,we know of a lot of them:Josef Fritzl,7 children with her daughter,other english man had sex with 2 daughters, they were pregnant 19 times,Gottfried W. had also sex with 2 daughters,Detlef S. had sex with daughter and 2 stephdaughter,8 kids,Thomas B. (and his son) raped 3 daughters(this is a very interesting case because the man was not a pedo but, his wife did get very ill, he was 41 years old and began having sex with the 3 girls, 1, 6 and 10 years old at that time), thinking of PR not having sex either because of the cancer, Frank L., also 2 kids with daughter,Jaycee Dugard , also 2 kids with pedo,etc,etc......

http://digitaljournal.com/article/262683
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...d-by-grim-tale-of-another-fritzl-2344119.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...d-by-grim-tale-of-another-fritzl-2344119.html
http://www.bild.de/regional/hamburg/prozess/vater-und-sohn-missbrauchen-toechter-25888112.bild.html
http://www.abendblatt.de/vermischte...ater-gesteht-Tochter-nimmt-ihn-in-Schutz.html

 

[DIRK SCHILLER]

UKGuy, please allow me to say why NOT John. Again, JMO based on the intensive research on male pedophiles (horrible topic!). Child molestation is the SICKNESS which cannot JUST one-time happens and disappeares! The molester has NO CONTROL to stop this sickness without intervention from an experts (long-term treatment requires!). Especially, in adults male.

By statistics, adult male after 40 has already HISTORY of child molestation way back to his youth age. By statistics, one-time child molestation DID NOT happens by male 40 years old. Therefore, without proof of JR's prior history of child molestation - JR is not JBR molester!!!

Furthermore, if you read ST book, you'll see why police took time to talk to Malinda about possible sexual abuse as well as to his ex-wife and his ex-lover (who had the child at that time) and child molestation was the subject of their discussion. Granted, I didn't read the transcripts from interview with his ex-wife and ex-lover but I have no doubts that this topic was discussed.

jmo

I do respectully disagree
a part of my answer in my last post and
we have a case here,a married man with 2 children, 46 years old,never was pedo oriented before, he abducted a 10 years old boy, raped and killed him

 

[rosesfromangels]

If memory serves me correct, they had a big Xmas party there the night before, or the night she was murdered? Think of all the people coming and going, and all the caterers, house cleaners, etc. that must have been in and out of that house. I would think that with that many people, including complete strangers in and out it could have been any one of them. If I had to speculate, I would think it was some transient type who had a menial job such as cleaning person, gardening, or something like that. I hope they investigated all the house staff, gardeners, etc.

 

[OpenMind4U]

If memory serves me correct, they had a big Xmas party there the night before, or the night she was murdered? Think of all the people coming and going, and all the caterers, house cleaners, etc. that must have been in and out of that house. I would think that with that many people, including complete strangers in and out it could have been any one of them. If I had to speculate, I would think it was some transient type who had a menial job such as cleaning person, gardening, or something like that. I hope they investigated all the house staff, gardeners, etc.

rosesfromangels, (by the way, love your name!!!...OK, let's assume we have the stranger, who knows John's business, who familiar with Ramsey's house floor plans (because you must agree, the WC is not so easy to find), who has the key to the house (because broken window wasn't the entry), who killed JBR and wrote RN. And the most important, this stranger has wore the robber gloves and some kind of special robber suit (because no fibers, no DNA, no TDNA were left behind while he/she traveled actively through the house). Now, questions:

- when he/she made the sexual injury with paintbrush: before or after the head blow?
- why did he/she BROKE the paintbush?
- why did he/she clean and redressed JBR?
- why did he/she WAIT (almost 1 1/2 hours) after head blow to do the strangulation?
- why didn't he/she take JBR out from the house to dispose the body but instead leave her INSIDE the blanket in WC?

I have more questions but above 5 would be enough for now?...Thank you.

 

[Afterimage]

rosesfromangels,

- when he/she made the sexual injury with paintbrush: before or after the head blow?
- why did he/she BROKE the paintbush?
- why did he/she clean and redressed JBR?
- why did he/she WAIT (almost 1 1/2 hours) after head blow to do the strangulation?
- why didn't he/she take JBR out from the house to dispose the body but instead leave her INSIDE the blanket in WC?

I have more questions but above 5 would be enough for now?...Thank you.

OpenMind...Wow...These are good questions, some of which I never thought about...

I hope you don't mind if I jump in and answer them according to my thoughts...

1. I have always thought that the sexual injury with the paintbrush occurred after the head blow. This would make it look like a sexual assault by an intruder who then strangled her after sexually assaulting her. At this point the perpetrator had no idea that JB skull was fractured.

2. I've never thought about that, and after thinking about it I can't come up with a good reason.

3. Because I think JB was killed in her clothes that she went to the White's party. They had to redress her, so that it looked like she went to bed, and was then taken out of her bed by the kidnapper.

4. Because they did not know at this point that the headblow was that serious and were hoping that she would regain consciousness. OR...maybe they thought the headblow had killed her right away and it took them 1 1/2 hours to plan out what they were going to do.

5. Thats what I wonder. Why didn't they dump the body somewhere outside the house. Then they could have said that JB was killed and dumped by the kidnappers, because the Ramseys did not follow the instructions in the Ransom note.

I have a couple questions for anyone to answer that believes BDI.

1. Do you think BR commited the head blow in the presence of PR? AND
2. What area of the house do you think the head blow was committed?

OpenMind4U...Do you have a post somewhere that you tell your whole theory? I would love to read it. I have searched your posts, but there are just too many and will take me forever to go through them all.

Thanks

 

[dodie20]

And from dodie20 on another thread:
In this case, if I understand the evidence, JB was digitally penetrated, so it doesn't seem like an adult male rapist was responsible. What kind of pedophile ring, would combine digital penetration with head bashing, and then murder the victim?
--------------------------------------------------
Not a pedo ring, but a pedophile (an adult, more probably male, in this case) can and often does use varying degrees of molestation which do not include penile penetration, and also may murder his victim.

WARNING!! THE INFORMATION BELOW IS SEXUALLY EXPLICIT, AND MAY BE DISTURBING TO SOME - PROCEED ONLY IF YOU CONSIDER IT IS POSTED AS INFORMATION TO SUPPORT THIS CASE, AND FOR NO OTHER INTENT AND PURPOSE!

The following information has been snipped from this page:
http://www.ipce.info/library_3/files/psvg_81_en.htm

- Many sexual contacts between adults and children do not have to result in any damage, and there are also sexual contacts which are pleasant and valued by the child. Unfortunately damaging things do occur, and we do not deny that.
- Often when people hear the word, they identify pedophilia with the sexual abuse of children by adults. Adults who sexually abuse children cause damage to children.
- Pedophile persons do exactly the same things with children as other adults do, except that sometimes sexual relations occur in addition. Pedophile persons want to express their feelings for children, in physical ways as well. Thus, especially in the case of young children, sexual activity seldom includes any kind of sexual penetration. Children are not yet physically big enough for this. An adult male who introduces his penis into the vagina of a girl or the anus of a boy will usually cause the child pain. For this reason alone pedophiles normally don't try.
- What then do they do? They talk to each other, laugh together, play together and so on. Children and pedophiles also make love to one another. They hug and cuddle each other, they let each other see their sex organs. -
- Pedophiles also masturbate their little friends or masturbate while their little friends watch, or they engage in mutual masturbation with them.
- Usually the partners in a pedophile relationship have known one another some length of time before they have sexual contact. They often live close to one another in the same neighborhood. The adult partner is sometimes a friend of the child's parents, or even a member of the family.
- Very, very seldom does a pedophile commit murder. When it does happen, it is often out of fear that his or her pedophile contact will be discovered. Many crimes are committed out of fear of being caught and punished

And, we must also consider this information from this page:
http://www.lucidpages.com/family.html

A thorough evaluation of an incestuous family may reveal several frequent traits:
- Siblings may have very different interests (music versus sports or politics).
- Siblings may exhibit unjustifiable rivalry, quarreling and dislike of each other.
- Children or parents have an exceptional talent for music, singing, math, sports, science.
- Children or parents are addicted to one activity that takes all their time.
- Children or parents are well-developed only in one area (art or sports or science).
- One child is psychologically very different from the rest of the family.
- The whole family is deeply religious.
- The family has many children.
- Emotional intimacy is nonexistent and is replaced by kissing and sexual touch.
- Intrafamilial sexual education of adolescents is nonexistent.
- Children associate only with a specific parent or sibling (often with the abuser).
- Parents have very different education or social status (housewife vs senator).
- The father is a tyrant, demands strict discipline, and decides all aspects of family life.
- The family lives in chaos, and the parents do not care about their many children.
- "Highly functioning parents" always put their interests before those of the child.
- One or both parents are perfectionists and demand the same from the child.
- The parents are driven to be socially recognized.
- The family (clan) has many compulsory gatherings involving even distant relatives.
- The parents are constantly driven to do activities, see things, or go to places.
- The family expresses its cohesion through gifts, but lacks quality time and affection.
- In general, the parents have a twisted sense of priorities.
- The parents heavily invest in building of a social facade of normalcy.
- The father cares more about friends and strangers than his family.
- The parents are strong nationalists or strong supporters of a political party.
- The parents were married multiple times.
- A child is at a particular risk of abuse when parents try to harm each other or stop having sex.
- The father may rationalize his decision to engage in sex with his daughter and blame his wife for her unavailability. Her sexual absence is in his mind a sufficient reason to have sex with the daughter. He needs sex; he must have it, and if the wife does not give it to him, he will get it otherwise. He believes that it is his natural right.

Sorry for the length of this post, but with regard to the doubt about a male adult molester, it seems to me that digital penetration should easily be considered a part of the process, and the molester could be considered a pedophile. Though in this case, incest is most likely a parallel affiliation.
This crime came as a result of a damaged psychopathic mind, so allows for ANY process and extent of sexual molestation.

Thanks for the post, but IMO, in a case like this, digital penetration from a male adult, most likely wouldn't lead to murder. It's possible, but again IMO, a man who would go to the extreme of murder, would also go to a sexual extreme. Also, the head bash reportedly came 1st. IMO, this would point to something, (rage?), besides molestation. So, again IMO, if a rage caused the head bash, then everything else was a by product of that rage? All MOO

 

[midwest mama]

Thanks for the post, but IMO, in a case like this, digital penetration from a male adult, most likely wouldn't lead to murder. It's possible, but again IMO, a man who would go to the extreme of murder, would also go to a sexual extreme. Also, the head bash reportedly came 1st. IMO, this would point to something, (rage?), besides molestation. So, again IMO, if a rage caused the head bash, then everything else was a by product of that rage? All MOO[/QUOTE

I agree the crime against JB resulting in her death was a culmination of rage.
But I also think that molestation against her had been committed prior to that night by at least one male member of her family more than once. Why couldn't what might have started out as just another one of those types of episodes which this time was to escalate the molestation a step further, causing JB's to resist, have led to the rage that caused the head bash?

 

[midwest mama]

OpenMind...Wow...These are good questions, some of which I never thought about...

I hope you don't mind if I jump in and answer them according to my thoughts...

1. I have always thought that the sexual injury with the paintbrush occurred after the head blow. This would make it look like a sexual assault by an intruder who then strangled her after sexually assaulting her. At this point the perpetrator had no idea that JB skull was fractured.

2. I've never thought about that, and after thinking about it I can't come up with a good reason.

3. Because I think JB was killed in her clothes that she went to the White's party. They had to redress her, so that it looked like she went to bed, and was then taken out of her bed by the kidnapper.

4. Because they did not know at this point that the headblow was that serious and were hoping that she would regain consciousness. OR...maybe they thought the headblow had killed her right away and it took them 1 1/2 hours to plan out what they were going to do.

5. Thats what I wonder. Why didn't they dump the body somewhere outside the house. Then they could have said that JB was killed and dumped by the kidnappers, because the Ramseys did not follow the instructions in the Ransom note.

I have a couple questions for anyone to answer that believes BDI.

1. Do you think BR commited the head blow in the presence of PR? AND
2. What area of the house do you think the head blow was committed?

OpenMind4U...Do you have a post somewhere that you tell your whole theory? I would love to read it. I have searched your posts, but there are just too many and will take me forever to go through them all.

Thanks

This concept is clever! And it opens up some really good paths which might explain some of the other clues. Thanks for this!

 

[DeeDee249]

If memory serves me correct, they had a big Xmas party there the night before, or the night she was murdered? Think of all the people coming and going, and all the caterers, house cleaners, etc. that must have been in and out of that house. I would think that with that many people, including complete strangers in and out it could have been any one of them. If I had to speculate, I would think it was some transient type who had a menial job such as cleaning person, gardening, or something like that. I hope they investigated all the house staff, gardeners, etc.

Their party was three days before, on the 23rd. There was only Patsy's own housekeeper. The party consisted of several friends. There were no complete strangers. ALL people who worked for the Rs were looked at. They all gave hair, saliva and handwriting samples to police. ALL were cleared, including the housekeeper. The ONLY people not cleared? Her parents. Patsy was the ONLY one who was never ruled out as having written the note, and fibers found on the BODY or items used on the body- duct tape and cord, belong to the parents.
On Christmas Day, the JB and her family attended a DIFFERENT party at the home of the White's. That night, JB was killed within 2-3- hours after arriving home.
You may be confused by Patsy putting her home on the Christmas House Tour in 1993. Three YEARS before JB's murder.

 

[dodie20]

A blow from a golf club or baseball bat, powerful enough to crack open her skull like that, would certainly have lacerated the scalp and produced loads of external bleeding. But none was found. The bleeding was strictly internal, which is why the hard rubber Maglite was considered the most likely weapon. It's hard to imagine that Burke could have produced such a massive wound with a single blow from a Maglite. That's not the way children fight anyhow. If she'd been killed by a series of head blows, produced, say, by banging her head against a radiator or a concrete floor, that would be consistent with the possibility that Burke could have done it. But there was no evidence of that sort. She was felled with a single blow to the back of the head.

There is simply no evidence consistent with Burke as JonBenet's killer. Nor is there any reason to assume both Patsy and John would go to such extreme (and disgusting) lengths to cover for him in any case.

I noticed on the search warrant list, a golf club cover was listed. Depending on the type of cover, (leather, for instance), scalp lacerations wouldn't necessarily have resulted from a bash. If rubber on a flashlight could protect the skin, then I would guess a rubber or leather golf club cover would offer the same protection. Honestly though, I'm surprised that a skull could be demolished like JB's was, and there be no outward signs. moo

 

[dodie20]

Thanks for the post, but IMO, in a case like this, digital penetration from a male adult, most likely wouldn't lead to murder. It's possible, but again IMO, a man who would go to the extreme of murder, would also go to a sexual extreme. Also, the head bash reportedly came 1st. IMO, this would point to something, (rage?), besides molestation. So, again IMO, if a rage caused the head bash, then everything else was a by product of that rage? All MOO[/QUOTE

I agree the crime against JB resulting in her death was a culmination of rage.
But I also think that molestation against her had been committed prior to that night by at least one male member of her family more than once. Why couldn't what might have started out as just another one of those types of episodes which this time was to escalate the molestation a step further, causing JB's to resist, have led to the rage that caused the head bash?

because of the 90 minute interval between the head bash and strangulation. From what I can tell, the head bash happened not too long after, or maybe even as, JB ate the pineapple, (because even with the 90 extra minutes, it hadn't fully digested). IMO, this points to something going wrong during the meal. Yes, I agree that JB was molested that night, but I'm not sure the molestation led to the murder. I think it could have been the other way around... the murder led to the molestation. IMO, it's possible that the digital molestation was used to either cover prior abuse, or/and to make it look like a rapist/intruder was responsible. Also, I think it's possible that the digital molestation was used, to cast suspicion on a male...especially if a female perp didn't know that experts could tell the difference between digital and penal penetration, which I think is likely. I,personally didn't know experts could tell the difference. I'm glad they can, but I still wonder how they do it. IMO, a female perp may have assumed that the broken hymen of a 6 yr old murder victim, would point to a male perp.

 

[tweezybird]

Where is the notion that it was a rubber coated flashlight? I've had several maglites and all of them were all metal?

 

[DeeDee249]

because of the 90 minute interval between the head bash and strangulation. From what I can tell, the head bash happened not too long after, or maybe even as, JB ate the pineapple, (because even with the 90 extra minutes, it hadn't fully digested). IMO, this points to something going wrong during the meal. Yes, I agree that JB was molested that night, but I'm not sure the molestation led to the murder. I think it could have been the other way around... the murder led to the molestation. IMO, it's possible that the digital molestation was used to either cover prior abuse, or/and to make it look like a rapist/intruder was responsible. Also, I think it's possible that the digital molestation was used, to cast suspicion on a male...especially if a female perp didn't know that experts could tell the difference between digital and penal penetration, which I think is likely. I,personally didn't know experts could tell the difference. I'm glad they can, but I still wonder how they do it. IMO, a female perp may have assumed that the broken hymen of a 6 yr old murder victim, would point to a male perp.

She had to have been alive when she was molested. Dead people don't bleed. There was blood in the vagina, and as we know, blood that was found to have been wiped from her pubic area and thighs. That doesn't mean that something couldn't have been done to try to hide past abuse- certainly that is possible. But she was molested that night before she was murdered.

 

[dodie20]

She had to have been alive when she was molested. Dead people don't bleed. There was blood in the vagina, and as we know, blood that was found to have been wiped from her pubic area and thighs. That doesn't mean that something couldn't have been done to try to hide past abuse- certainly that is possible. But she was molested that night before she was murdered.

yes she was, but I wonder if she was molested because that was the goal purpose of the perp, or if she was molested because the perp knew she was dying, or thought she was already dead, or was planning to kill her. I don't know for sure, but since she was molested at about the same time as the strangulation, it looks like, IMO, that murder was the goal purpose and the molestation was used to cover the reason for the murder. I doubt JB was even conscious by this point, (at least I sure hope not), so it seems like a lot was done really quickly, to get things over with? Or, like some people think, maybe molestation was the goal, but if so, what in the world happened during the 90 minute interval? Was JB being molested? Was there evidence that pointed to a long, drawn out molestation?

 

[rosesfromangels]

rosesfromangels, (by the way, love your name!!!...OK, let's assume we have the stranger, who knows John's business, who familiar with Ramsey's house floor plans (because you must agree, the WC is not so easy to find), who has the key to the house (because broken window wasn't the entry), who killed JBR and wrote RN. And the most important, this stranger has wore the robber gloves and some kind of special robber suit (because no fibers, no DNA, no TDNA were left behind while he/she traveled actively through the house). Now, questions:

- when he/she made the sexual injury with paintbrush: before or after the head blow?
- why did he/she BROKE the paintbush?
- why did he/she clean and redressed JBR?
- why did he/she WAIT (almost 1 1/2 hours) after head blow to do the strangulation?
- why didn't he/she take JBR out from the house to dispose the body but instead leave her INSIDE the blanket in WC?

I have more questions but above 5 would be enough for now?...Thank you.

Thank you for the compliment on my moniker. It is in reference to the answer of a novena, in which roses are a sign from above.
In answer to all your questions aside from I don't know..... because they were demented.
If not a handyperson who worked in the home from time to time, then my next guess would be someone who was affiliated with the pageants. This act was extreme hatred and jealousy. I still think transient. Someone who works the lights or sets up props? Someone who can move from.town to town to avoid detection? Runs the music? A roadie? Makeup or hair artist? Did this child act badly at this pageants to anyone in particular? Did patsy get anyone fired because they bothered jonbenet?