GUILTY KS - Andrew Finch, 28, killed by LE in 'swatting' prank, Wichita, 28 Dec 2017 *civil trial 2022*

[LietKynes]

And what if this HAD been a real situation ?
That puke Barriss said that not only were people shot , and hostages taken -- but that fuel was poured and ready to be set alight ; thus incinerating the household !!

The cop would have then been a HERO , for saving the people from burning to death.
It would've taken a second for this man (the falsely accused victim) to toss a lighter behind him and engulf the home.
If this had been an actual emergency.

Yes, the cops were also victims.
It's as if some might think LE are clairvoyants , able to discern true situations from false ones.
They are not.
LE went to that house believing lives were in imminent danger.

We can agree to disagree about the officer who shot Finch. My .02 is that this cop is not a murderer.
He was also victimized.
Of course there needs to be a thorough investigation; but unless further information is revealed that would prove that cop was hoping to murder someone -- he was also a victim of the true killer, Barriss !

If I were a family member of Finch -- you might have to tie ME up at home... so I didn't end up in jail myself.
Don't know if I could control myself if I saw Barriss in person !

Thank God I've never lost a loved one to murder , either directly -- or through long distance lies, and misinformation from a perp like T. B.

It's an unspeakable tragedy Finch is dead. But the burden of this rests entirely upon Barriss and the other one who gave a false address. My opinion is there should be another arrest.
I hope Barriss someday will suffer extremely mental anguish for murdering an innocent man.

And if the people who host these gaming sites cannot shut down the folks who 'swat' , maybe THEIR site should be discontinued ?
Is it possible for the gaming site hosts to immediately notify LE of any online threats to 'swat'... and at least tell LE that this is happening ?

I know site hosts cannot monitor any personal phone calls-- but if information is put online for all to see--- can anything be done so that Andrew's death is not in vain ?
:moo:

 

[LietKynes]

It looked like Andrew didn't reach into his waistband, but put his hands up to his eyes , shielding them from the light.
Hard to tell from the video.

I believe the reason he was shot was because LE thought he could light a match or lighter and fling it into the house--- since TB said gas had been poured throughout the place.
LE was trying to prevent a catastrophe.
:moo:

 

[RAISINISBACK]

When I lived on a main street, everyone did it. What you expect is that either a neighbor's house was burglarized, their wild teens have done something stupid, or maybe two people are in a fist fight. You don't expect your neighbors to be ax murderers or coke dealers or something serious.

But also, if you have old neighbors like I did, or other neighbors who are friends, who you watch out for, your immediate instinct is to go outside and make sure they are OK. It's human nature, not just to be curious, but to look out for one another. None of us believes we are living in a potential war zone.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

BBM

But in these days and times, you are.

Mass shootings are becoming so common place that we barely notice them anymore.

Terrorist acts are becoming so common place that we barely give them a second glance on the news.

Police involved shootings are becoming so common place that most time we don't even bother to read the news article about it.

You cannot go to a night club, concert, movie, school, college, Christmas party, work or even church without being afraid someone will show up with a gun and open fire.

So yeah, sounds like a war zone to me.

JMO

 

[RAISINISBACK]

I have them posted on my fridge.

ETA: However, would they believe me if I called and said everything is hunky dory? I know some of LE, and based on some of the stuff they get called out to, idk if they'd believe me, b/c what if I was the hostage, and the person controlling me made me call? Then they just turn around and go home on my say so. These swatters (and no-knock warrants) are pretty scary.

I hear you. But at least the dispatcher could notify police on scene that they have you on the phone talking, telling them nothing is going on in your house and at present time you are not a danger to them. I would then assume the dispatcher would tell you to go outside with your hands in the air. At least that way you are not surprised speechless and know to obey every single command. The police on the scene are then also aware that you may not be the armed and dangerous suspect they have been led to believe you are so would I assume act in a less aggressive manner.

Given the publicity of this incident I am sure that all LE would pay attention if you call and tell the dispatcher you are not a danger or in any danger.

Anyway let's hope so.

JMO

 

[Deleted member 158085]

BBM

But in these days and times, you are.

Mass shooting are becoming so common place that we barely notice them anymore.

Terrorist acts are becoming so common place that we barely give them a second glance on the news.

Police involved shooting are becoming so common place that most time we don't even bother to read the news article about it.

You cannot go to a night club, concert, movie, school, college, Christmas party, work or even church without being afraid someone will show up with a gun and open fire.

So yeah, sounds like a war zone to me.

JMO

But we can't live believing this and still be a normal and healthy society. That's why we go on as normal. Yes, we need to be aware of our surroundings and be cautious. But if we become programmed to always be ready to confront swat teams with utter calm, knowing the exact drill to follow, we will not be the same people and society. I, for one, don't want to walk around in fear, paranoid of being ambushed every time I walk out my door.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Swatter has been ARRESTED! #DramaAlert Call of Duty Game Turns Deadly! ( INTERVIEW) - YouTube

This just keeps getting better and better, or worse as the case may be.

The gamer who actually asked Bariss to "swat" that address is the 18 year old son of a police officer.

It is around the 10:30 point in the interview.
Now I am wondering if the reason there has been no additional arrests in this case is because one of them is the kid of a police officer?

Hmmm...

 

[rsd1200]

BBM

But in these days and times, you are.

Mass shootings are becoming so common place that we barely notice them anymore.

Terrorist acts are becoming so common place that we barely give them a second glance on the news.

Police involved shootings are becoming so common place that most time we don't even bother to read the news article about it.

You cannot go to a night club, concert, movie, school, college, Christmas party, work or even church without being afraid someone will show up with a gun and open fire.

So yeah, sounds like a war zone to me.

JMO

I never used to scan for exits when I went to a concert, theater, or the mall. One of the first things I try to remember to do, when I go to a strange venue, is cast a glance for the nearest exit and kinda get my bearings. I refuse to live my life in fear, but, it never hurts to be smart. I have never seen my country so on edge, and everyone so heated, and unhappy. If 2018 doesn't improve I may not show up for 2019. :gaah:

 

[Jax49]

http://www.kansas.com/opinion/editorials/article192492279.html

Wichita police owe public a fuller explanation in shooting of unarmed man

Andrew Finch shouldn’t have died five days ago. That’s one of the few things clear after a swatting incident that led to a Wichita police officer killing an unarmed Finch on the porch of his west Wichita home.

Depending on your view, and if what we heard about the swatting call proves true, as many as four people could be blamed for Finch’s death: The online gamer who gave an incorrect address (Finch’s) for another gamer to another man and asked him to swat it by calling Wichita police. The second man, arrested by Los Angeles police and identified as Tyler Barriss, who made the fake killing and hostage situation call. The Wichita officer who fired once, killing an unarmed Finch. And, police reason, Finch himself for lowering his hands to his waist despite instructions from officers to keep them raised.

Actually, the public’s best interest would be to see all angles of video.

Well reasoned editorial, imo.

 

[rsd1200]

I hear you. But at least the dispatcher could notify police on scene that they have you on the phone talking, telling them nothing is going on in your house and at present time you are not a danger to them. I would then assume the dispatcher would tell you to go outside with your hands in the air. At least that way you are not surprised speechless and know to obey every single command. The police on the scene are then also aware that you may not be the armed and dangerous suspect they have been led to believe you are so would I assume act in a less aggressive manner.

Given the publicity of this incident I am sure that all LE would pay attention if you call and tell the dispatcher you are not a danger or in any danger.

Anyway let's hope so.

JMO

Honey, after what happened here, to my son, and on a much smaller scale, to me, I'd crawl out there on my belly! I've always done everything asked of me, on point. It made one, who pulled me over, so mad, (he thought he was gonna catch me on a dui and I was not drinking), that he took out his billy club and hit my car! I remained composed, got in my car, and drove away, with my friend, and spouse, in tow. I was only 19, but that, and a similar encounter a couple years before, started my wariness, and over the years with cops like JJ and the ones who are in on these drug schemes all over our state, have taken its toll on my faith. I still believe that the majority are good folks, just trying to do a job, but they do need to cull the ones amongst themselves, that are hardened, dangerous, jumpy, and just pure out mean.

 

[MsJosie]

It looked like Andrew didn't reach into his waistband, but put his hands up to his eyes , shielding them from the light.
Hard to tell from the video.

I believe the reason he was shot was because LE thought he could light a match or lighter and fling it into the house--- since TB said gas had been poured throughout the place.
LE was trying to prevent a catastrophe.
:moo:

Thanks LietKynes for a good possible reason for the possible shooting. We all are speculating, The ONE relas d video clip is grainy and hard to see. Viewing it without TV distortion and cleaned up would be better but LE wanted to put out the actual video from ONE of LE officers.

Here in Wichita, on KWCH, the day of or after the shooting, one of the first police info reports on TV, The Asst Chief stated that the video clip released to the public was from a different LE then the one that shot the ‘suspect at the time’. It was NOT stated if the officers were standing next to each other or how far apart they were.

The video clip from the shooting officer was not released nor were any others....LE was wearing body cams but no info was given as to who wore them or how many cams were in use.

The video released was the only clip release, as the Asst Chief said the others were held back for investigation and evidence. We, the public, only have one view of what may have happened. We will have to wait to see what the other cams show.

I have not seen this info posted so I am putting it out there. I could have missed any posting of this info.

I realize not everyone sees our local news and if you do, some parts may have been edited out. This was a live report and interview from the Asst Chief.

And before anyone jumps the gun...the Chief was on vacation at this time. That is why the Asst Chief spoke. It was also reported the Chief was cutting his vacation short and returning to Wichita.

KWCH, is channel 12, here in Wichita and area.

 

[rsd1200]

Swatter has been ARRESTED! #DramaAlert Call of Duty Game Turns Deadly! ( INTERVIEW) - YouTube

This just keeps getting better and better, or worse as the case may be.

The gamer who actually asked Bariss to "swat" that address is the 18 year old son of a police officer.

It is around the 10:30 point in the interview.
Now I am wondering if the reason there has been no additional arrests in this case is because one of them is the kid of a police officer?

Hmmm...

Wow. He even got around the question of race. They didn't even know who to look for when the guy came out. The 911 operator was trying to get as much info out of him as possible too. All over a game. I've seen parents come after referees, on the floor of basketball games, and I remember the mother who had her daughter's, ice skating competitor's, leg broken, but this is just a whole new, very scary, level.

 

[LietKynes]

If the gamer who asked Barriss to 'swat' was the son of a police officer..... he of all people (if it's true he is related to LE) should've known more than some of us how dangerous that is !

Make an example of them both !!!!!
:furious: :stormingmad:

Thus far I've heard of no remorse from the gamers at all. None.

 

[rsd1200]

http://www.kansas.com/opinion/editorials/article192492279.html

Wichita police owe public a fuller explanation in shooting of unarmed man






Well reasoned editorial, imo.

I think we may see more after they have further investigated. It's like other complicated cases, there's a lot of different dynamics to this case and a lot of different players (four, I think). I don't think they've gotten the guy who published the address yet, either, have they? They may not want all the vid out there til they have him, too. It's possible that the LEO who shot him was the one he was facing when he lowered his hands. After listening to the 911 call, it truly sounded like they had a guy who'd gone off the deep end, and who was capable of flicking a match into that home, or grabbing a firearm, from his waistband, and killing another family member, as he suicided by cop. This is just horrific but the 911 caller has the majority of blame on his shoulders, imo. It's kinda like Charlie Manson, he didn't kill anyone, but he sure put things into motion that directly caused their deaths.

 

[K_Z]

Excellent discussion of the extradition, and likely charges, for Tyler Barriss in Kansas.

The challenge for the prosecution is not establishing the mental element. It’s the causation.

Causation is a tricky concept. There are two components — causation in fact and “legal” causation. Causation in fact is shown by a cause-and-effect relationship between a defendant's conduct and the harm suffered by the victim. To prove legal causation, prosecutors must show it was foreseeable that the defendant's conduct might create a risk of harm. The harm must be the natural and probable consequence of the wrongful act.

A person who “swats” directly causes armed police officers to go to a victim’s home, and also causes those officers to be prepared for an imminent threat. It’s also foreseeable that sending the police with guns drawn to someone’s house could probably result in a shooting death. This seems pretty straightforward, but it’s not.

Expect the defense in this case to argue that the police’s independent decision to shoot Finch was an intervening, “superseding” event, breaking the chain of causation.

An intervening cause harms someone after the defendant’s act has been committed. It absolves a defendant of liability only if it supersedes the defendant's negligence, by breaking the connection between the initial act (calling 911) and the harm caused (the shooting).

If the likelihood that a third person may act in a particular manner is one of the hazards of the original criminal act, that act — even if criminal itself — does not prevent the original actor from being liable for causing harm.

Manslaughter versus 2nd degree murder. I think eventually if this goes to a jury (if TB doesn't plead), that they jury should be given both to consider. From this discussion, the clear intent to cause danger and mayhem, and the profound recklessness and blatant disregard for life and safety by TB, leans toward 2nd degree murder. But that's just my layperson opinion.

I hope there are at least several different felony charges prosecutors can bring. I'd like to see TB in a Kansas prison, or Federal prison until he's an old man.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...pect-swatting-hoax-led-death-could-be-n833881

I also thought this was interesting-- though the bill didn't become law:

The Interstate Swatting Hoax Act of 2015 would have imposed sentences of up to 5 years if a hoax call resulted in an emergency response and up to life in prison if a death resulted. The FBI estimates 400 swatting attacks occur every year, Clark said in a statement when announcing the bill.

Here's the bill that was introduced:

https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/house-bill/4057/text

I'm guessing it won't be long until a similar bill is re-introduced, and this time I'm betting it will pass into law.

 

[K_Z]

Quick overview of "spoofing" VOIP, and how we can all thank telemarketers for the techniques that have been exploited by "swatting".

While the entire incident was obviously despicable and Barriss alone is responsible for his actions, it’s worth asking if there isn’t more we could be doing to prevent these types of “hoax” incidents. The only way that Barriss and others like him are able to get away with such mayhem (or at least be bold enough to try) is through the use of so-called “spoofing” technology. This is a process which allows callers to falsely mask their phone number, generally using VoIP (Voice-over-Internet-Protocol) technology, leading the recipient of the call to either believe that it’s a local caller or be unable to identify the incoming number. And at least in some cases, it can apparently throw off the police as well.

Is this spoofing even legal? Amazingly enough, it actually is in most cases. The FCC has the 2009 Truth in Caller ID Act in place, but that only makes spoofing illegal if the call can be shown to have been made, “with the intent to defraud, cause harm, or wrongly obtain anything of value.” Why, you might ask, are people able to do this at all? It’s to protect spammers and telemarketers who know that you won’t answer the phone if you saw where the call was coming from. The same set of FCC rules also requires carriers to allow number “blocking” at no cost for all interstate calls so the incoming number shows up as being “not available” on your phone.

Also (and this is the part which will really get privacy activists up in arms), carriers obviously have the ability to record the number of the source of all calls as well the ID of the recipient. When combined with location data from the vast majority of phones, they could track down where a call came from in short order, and frequently the name of the person owning the phone. (Yes, disposable “burner” phones are a problem, but that’s a separate discussion.) That information should be made immediately available to law enforcement with a warrant. Nobody guaranteed you anonymity when making phone calls. If you don’t want the recipient to know your phone number, don’t call or text them.

https://hotair.com/archives/2017/12/31/call-duty-swatting-demonstrates-phone-records-transparent/
(BBM)

Truth in Caller ID Act of 2009:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth_in_Caller_ID_Act_of_2009

Caller ID spoofing is generally illegal in the United States if done "with the intent to defraud, cause harm, or wrongfully obtain anything of value". The relevant federal statute, the Truth in Caller ID Act of 2009, does make exceptions for certain law-enforcement purposes. Callers are also still allowed to preserve their anonymity by choosing to block all outgoing caller ID information on their phone lines.

Under the act, which also targets caller ID spoofing on VOIP services, it is illegal "to cause any caller identification service to knowingly transmit misleading or inaccurate caller identification information with the intent to defraud, cause harm, or wrongfully obtain anything of value...." Forfeiture penalties or criminal fines of up to $10,000 per violation (not to exceed $1,000,000) could be imposed.[1] The law maintains an exemption for blocking one's own outgoing caller ID information, and law enforcement isn't affected.[2][3]

IMO, the "intent to cause harm" language of the Caller ID act could definitely apply to swatting. I hope there is a way to charge TB with federal crimes, in addition to state crimes. And/ or amend existing laws to clearly cover swatting. I'd prefer to see amendments versus a whole new law, because it's vastly easier to amend existing laws than bring a whole new one to completion.

IMO, the only way to stop this trend of "swatting" is to remove the restrictions on LE tracking these calls quickly to verify the validity, and making the charges and prison penalties extremely severe.

No one, IMO, should be able to hide behind a veil of cell phone/ digital privacy when they make emergency calls to law enforcement-- whether to the 911 system, or the non-emergency number of LE offices.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Excellent discussion of the extradition, and likely charges, for Tyler Barriss in Kansas.

Manslaughter versus 2nd degree murder. I think eventually if this goes to a jury (if TB doesn't plead), that they jury should be given both to consider. From this discussion, the clear intent to cause danger and mayhem, and the profound recklessness and blatant disregard for life and safety by TB, leans toward 2nd degree murder. But that's just my layperson opinion.

I hope there are at least several different felony charges prosecutors can bring. I'd like to see TB in a Kansas prison, or Federal prison until he's an old man.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...pect-swatting-hoax-led-death-could-be-n833881

I also thought this was interesting-- though the bill didn't become law:



Here's the bill that was introduced:

https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/house-bill/4057/text

I'm guessing it won't be long until a similar bill is re-introduced, and this time I'm betting it will pass into law.

BBM

What really burns me is CA arrested this guy for calling in a bomb hoax in Dallas. He got what was virtually a slap on the wrist for what was arguably a terrorist act.

I think he called it into a UMG (the gaming site) convention. But here is what causes me to really shake with anger. The Dallas Cowboys football stadium is there. Some of those football stadiums can hold up to one hundred thousand people. They are always packed during a game. If some moron like Barriss, who admitted he likes to do "evacs" because they are "fun" to watch on the news calls in a bomb threat to one of these football stadiums, who knows how many people would be hurt or killed. It is a nightmare thinking about one hundred thousand terrified people all trying to get to the same exits. Men, women and children.

Anyone calling in these fake reports to "swat" someone or just to see a "fun: event on TV should be handed some murder and attempted murder or domestic terrorism charges with a stiff 20-30 year sentence.

JMO

 

[RAISINISBACK]

I think we may see more after they have further investigated. It's like other complicated cases, there's a lot of different dynamics to this case and a lot of different players (four, I think). I don't think they've gotten the guy who published the address yet, either, have they? They may not want all the vid out there til they have him, too. It's possible that the LEO who shot him was the one he was facing when he lowered his hands. After listening to the 911 call, it truly sounded like they had a guy who'd gone off the deep end, and who was capable of flicking a match into that home, or grabbing a firearm, from his waistband, and killing another family member, as he suicided by cop. This is just horrific but the 911 caller has the majority of blame on his shoulders, imo. It's kinda like Charlie Manson, he didn't kill anyone, but he sure put things into motion that directly caused their deaths.

BBM

100% agree. And like Charlie Manson he should be locked away for life.

JMO

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Honey, after what happened here, to my son, and on a much smaller scale, to me, I'd crawl out there on my belly! I've always done everything asked of me, on point. It made one, who pulled me over, so mad, (he thought he was gonna catch me on a dui and I was not drinking), that he took out his billy club and hit my car! I remained composed, got in my car, and drove away, with my friend, and spouse, in tow. I was only 19, but that, and a similar encounter a couple years before, started my wariness, and over the years with cops like JJ and the ones who are in on these drug schemes all over our state, have taken its toll on my faith. I still believe that the majority are good folks, just trying to do a job, but they do need to cull the ones amongst themselves, that are hardened, dangerous, jumpy, and just pure out mean.

BBM

After reading so many reports about police shootings, even though I trust LE and have no fear of them, I m not sure that I wouldn't do the same.

So many of LE are good people who just wants to go home to their family at the end of a work day just like all the rest of us. Many of them truly believe in what they are doing, and want to be of service to their fellow man, just like the untold medical people who risk their lives every day from a contaminated needle or an out of control viral epidemic.( A nurse I have known for years was one of those that treated Thomas Duncan, the ebola patient in Dallas in 2014. I remember how scared she was that she too would contract the disease.)

But then you have JJ who can give them all a bad name. So yes, LE needs to be aware of what is going on in their own department and get rid of those officers that are dishonest or dangerous.

JMO

 

[K_Z]

Will the officer who shot Andrew Finch face any charges? Maybe. I don't think enough is known yet about his actions at the scene, and police procedures. I think it will be months before that can be established. Certainly he will face internal review, but I think that will be a year or more before that happens.

I am certainly not ready to condemn him and demand criminal charges, though I don't think he should ever be part of a SWAT type response team again, at a minimum. I have so many questions about police response procedures that are unanswered that I haven't decided yet if I think the police officer should face any criminal charges in this case. It's unspeakably tragic that AF is dead-- but until I'm convinced that the officer who shot him clearly and convincingly departed from correct proedures, I can't condemn him. The officers-- ALL of them who responded or dispatched this response, are ALSO innocent victims of Tyler Barriss' very intentional harmful actions, IMO.

This whole situation with the intentional swatting call makes the circumstances of the officer's liability very murky for me. The whole response went tragically sideways, but I'm definitely not convinced YET that anyone other than Tyler Barriss should face criminal charges. Administrative proceedings may be more appropriate for the officer-- I just don't know yet. This whole situation seems more equivalent, for the officer who shot AF, to a tragic accident/ confluence of circumstances, rather than incompetence or deliberate "targeting" of AF on the part of the officer.

When accidents happen in other professions from emergency actions that were done with proper intentions that produce tragic deaths, we don't demand criminal charges.. In health care, for example. In fact, doctors are almost completely insulated from manslaughter and murder charges, so long as they INTENDED to provide care that was well within professional standards. (The "golden parachute" of intent to provide lifesaving care within a valid therapeutic relationship.)

Even extreme and willful negligence is often not enough for a doctor to be charged with manslaughter or murder. Reference Conrad Murray and Roberto Bonilla as particularly egregious examples who got very light charges and very light sentences, relative to what they did, IMO.

Why are police officers treated so differently, with regard to the risk of facing criminal charges for emergency response provided with proper dispatch? Why is the *intent* of actions treated so differently between doctors and police officers? With doctors, the proper intent (intent to save or preserve lives in an emergency situation) is treated as more relevant (legally) than the bad/ tragic outcome (an unintended death). With LEOs, the bad/ tragic outcome is treated as more relevant (criminally liable) than the proper intent-- to save or preserve lives. This dichotomy has puzzled me for a very long time. I've never heard or read an explanation as to why this makes sense legally, morally, or ethically.

Swatting is a relatively new phenomenon, which means there is sparse legal precedent for guidance. Courts may look to cases where a speeding motorist leads police on a high speed chase, and a pursuing police officer crashes into and kills an innocent victim.

In one Kansas case, a highway patrolman pleaded guilty to vehicular homicide for failing to slow down at a stop sign while in pursuit, resulting in the death of another driver. The speeding motorist argued that the patrolman’s independent criminal act was a “superseding” cause of death, absolving him of liability.

The Kansas Supreme Court disagreed, holding that the officer’s blameworthiness for the accident is not relevant to the defendant's liability. The defendant in that case was liable because (1) his reckless speeding created a situation which resulted in a fatal accident and (2) the defendant could have reasonably foreseen that such an accident would occur as a result of what he did — even if he did not actually cause the death.

The takeaway is that a police officer's independent intervening act will not necessarily supersede the original act, whether it's speeding or "swatting."

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...pect-swatting-hoax-led-death-could-be-n833881

 

[K_Z]

BBM

100% agree. And like Charlie Manson he should be locked away for life.

JMO

I know the defense atty for TB will fight it, but I think the fact that TB has done this exact kind of thing before and been convicted for it is highly relevant. I think it should be included as evidence at his trial. It's more relevant, IMO, than if he had some other kind of criminal conviction, like a theft charge. I think he belongs in prison till he's a very old, old man.

*ETA: I also have a suspicion that these weren't the only 3 times TB did this. He admits to enjoying "evacs". I think he's probably done this "swatting" thing a bunch of times on a smaller scale without being caught, except for these 3. JMO.